Ticket Sales and Size of the Fetz

[kevinfootes]

Footes, do you go to the games? Dayton brings many more than a few fans, in fact I've seen times when it's probably pushing a grand. Louisville and Cinci always had alot of fans also.

Ummm, only for the past 25 years.

When Dayton brings 1000 fans they're still outnumbered 10 to 1. That's never cost SLU a game against Dayton, IMO. Poor play, bad officiating, etc. maybe, but not 1000 fans.

[davidnark]

Footse, I think it is time for you to put your argument about the arena size to rest. We all clearly understand your point, but the arena is now complete, is amazing, and is unlikely to add significant seating in the foreseeable future. Enjoy the fact that we have one of the best home courts in the country and quit worrying about your missing 3,000 seats.

[kevinfootes]

Footse, I think it is time for you to put your argument about the arena size to rest. We all clearly understand your point, but the arena is now complete, is amazing, and is unlikely to add significant seating in the foreseeable future. Enjoy the fact that we have one of the best home courts in the country and quit worrying about your missing 3,000 seats.

it is what it is, and I'm not expecting any expansion. My initial question to you and others was whether or not you thought they would sell more season tickets for next year. You seem to think that isn't important. I think it would be a disappointment if they didn't sell more for all of the reasons you mention above. I don't really see that as complaining about the size of the arena per se. There is still time for more tickets to be sold. Let's hope it happens and the house is packed each night.

[AlumniFan]

you guys are missing the point.

first off the Cardinals have played THREE F##*^G GAMES and attendance is down? wait a minute schools not out, the weather sucks and all of a sudden the Cardinals attendance is down? Summer hasn't started yet and regional fans have yet to come to a game because we have a played a wopping THREE GAMES!

I think you forget that when spoon left the sports dollar here in STL was changing, the Rams got real good and those tickets went way up in price, The Cardinals raised ticket prices, added premium seats and built a new stadium and raised ticket prices again, won the penant twice - wining the word series once, etc, the Blues had some success and failures but still their ticket prices have gone up.

SLU on the other hand on the mid to late 90's had a nice niche' that was blown past when the three pro teams in town got really good.

people forget in 1994 there were no Rams games, the Blues were OK and the brewery was at odds with fans, Spoon arrived and filled a void with some good teams, Fall of 1995 arrives and there is now the NFL, the cardinals had a turnaround - six NLCS's, two penants, 1 champ, the blues won the Presidents trophy had some real good seasons, etc.

SLU became really mediorce, yes an affordable ticket, but who wants to see the little engine that could when down at the Dome you had some really explosive football.

Times change, there is competition for sports dollars.

A 10,600 seat arena, with a practice facility/support facilities fills SLU's need.

For once, we agree. Well put.

[AlumniFan]

Well, perhaps if there were more seats available they wouldn't be gouging people so much. There were plenty of people on here saying that the newer, smaller arena would lead to BIGGER crowds. I don't recall one poster on here saying he expected ticket sales to drop off. Let's hope that doesn't happen. I don't think it will, but they're not in good shape at moment.

I don't get the "gouging" comment. No one is required to go to the games and if you do, the less expensive seats are MUCH better than the less expensive seats in Scottrade. Besides, if they had spent a lot MORE money to build a bigger arena, it stands to reason that they would have had to charge more to cover the cost unless the place consistenly sold out at 15,000 people - HIGHLY unlikely.

[AlumniFan]

They should have had their s%#$ together in the first place and not promised something that couldn't be delivered.

Show me where they "promised" something bigger and I will buy your season tickets for you. Just because the initial drawings were of once concept doesn't mean that Larry got up and said "We PROMISE to build a 15,000 seat arean". This should be a time to celebrate the success, not ***** about how many Jesuits can dance on the head of a pin!

[AlumniFan]

How often does that really happen? SIUC and SMS send a decent number of fans, but no other teams. If you want to say North Carolina, that would happen again because the game would probably be moved to a bigger building.

You obviously have not been to many Billikens games. I am sick and tired of having Dayton fans, X fans, UNC fans, Mo State fans, Marquette fans, and SIU-C fans, etc. sitting in front of me in OUR house.

[kevinfootes]

you guys are missing the point.

first off the Cardinals have played THREE F##*^G GAMES and attendance is down? wait a minute schools not out, the weather sucks and all of a sudden the Cardinals attendance is down? Summer hasn't started yet and regional fans have yet to come to a game because we have a played a wopping THREE GAMES!

I think you forget that when spoon left the sports dollar here in STL was changing, the Rams got real good and those tickets went way up in price, The Cardinals raised ticket prices, added premium seats and built a new stadium and raised ticket prices again, won the penant twice - wining the word series once, etc, the Blues had some success and failures but still their ticket prices have gone up.

SLU on the other hand on the mid to late 90's had a nice niche' that was blown past when the three pro teams in town got really good.

people forget in 1994 there were no Rams games, the Blues were OK and the brewery was at odds with fans, Spoon arrived and filled a void with some good teams, Fall of 1995 arrives and there is now the NFL, the cardinals had a turnaround - six NLCS's, two penants, 1 champ, the blues won the Presidents trophy had some real good seasons, etc.

SLU became really mediorce, yes an affordable ticket, but who wants to see the little engine that could when down at the Dome you had some really explosive football.

Times change, there is competition for sports dollars.

A 10,600 seat arena, with a practice facility/support facilities fills SLU's need.

I think Spoon's first year was '92-92 if I'm not mistaken. SLU had a pretty good year attendance-wise when Hughes was on the team, and the Rams were playing football then. I understand your point, but SLU's most direct competition in town is the Blues. The Blues have been down recently, and missed an entire season. SLU really "picked" a bad time to be down.

[AlumniFan]

I think Spoon's first year was '92-92 if I'm not mistaken. SLU had a pretty good year attendance-wise when Hughes was on the team, and the Rams were playing football then. I understand your point, but SLU's most direct competition in town is the Blues. The Blues have been down recently, and missed an entire season. SLU really "picked" a bad time to be down.

You are right, the Rams were playing football in 1992, only they were playing in LA. They did not come to St. Louis until 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Rams

[Pistol]

A game like UNC would probably be moved to Kiel/Savvis/Scott in the future. Hopefully it won't, but I wouldn't be surprised.

That is possible, but I'd like to keep our Chaifetz home court advantage when possible. Xavier has done one or two games a year on a "neutral" court (US Bank Arena) in Cincinnati for big games, like K-State (with Huggins) and Illinois last year and then K-State again this year. Of course, that completely backfired because Huggins jumped ship for West Virginia after both teams and the site were on board for this season's game. US Bank Arena seats about 17,000 for basketball, while Cintas Center seats about 10,000. Xavier did host the Tennessee game at Cintas this year, though.

[billiken_roy]

A game like UNC would probably be moved to Kiel/Savvis/Scott in the future. Hopefully it won't, but I wouldn't be surprised.

with a new ad i am sure there will be different focus, but both cheryl and mark wright have said prior that moving such a game would defeat the whole purpose of the pit and take away the hard work and donation advantages that loyal boosters had put in prior to that.

think about it. do we want north carolina there where 8,000 of the fans are wearing that hideous baby blue along with the rest of us, of do we want north carolina coming into our pit with no allies in the stands?

[Pistol]

with a new ad i am sure there will be different focus, but both cheryl and mark wright have said prior that moving such a game would defeat the whole purpose of the pit and take away the hard work and donation advantages that loyal boosters had put in prior to that.

think about it. do we want north carolina there where 8,000 of the fans are wearing that hideous baby blue along with the rest of us, of do we want north carolina coming into our pit with no allies in the stands?

I couldn't agree more, but what we want and what other people want might be different things. We need to fill the place with students and season ticket holders and keep the riff-raff, especially if they're from Poplar Bluff, out of our house. I hope we don't start playing any of those "big games" at Scottrade.

[brianstl]

with a new ad i am sure there will be different focus, but both cheryl and mark wright have said prior that moving such a game would defeat the whole purpose of the pit and take away the hard work and donation advantages that loyal boosters had put in prior to that.

think about it. do we want north carolina there where 8,000 of the fans are wearing that hideous baby blue along with the rest of us, of do we want north carolina coming into our pit with no allies in the stands?

Teams like Duke and UNC almost always demand the game get moved to the larger building before agreeing to play a series. The hold the power in those negotiations and use it to decrease a team's home court advantage.

[jjray]

That's right. Would you rather have a 13,000 seat arena with 2nd class amenities, no offices and possible no practice facility or a first class 10,600 arena that houses the entire athletic dept and has all the bells and whistles to wow recruits who come to visit.

To me there is no question which choice is better for the long term health of the program.

House has nailed it. We as fans wish more seats. But the goal is best program possible. What's more important to the success of the program: another 2000 seats or high class practice facilities? Easy answer. Another reason the 10k size might make financial sense long term is it fills a nitche in the STL event market. The only other facility of that size in town is the St. Charles Family Arena ... which half-way to Boone County. Once the HWY 40 construction is over, I expect the Fetz to do quite nicely generating event revenue.

[billiken_roy]

Teams like Duke and UNC almost always demand the game get moved to the larger building before agreeing to play a series. The hold the power in those negotiations and use it to decrease a team's home court advantage.

then i wouldnt play. well take that back. the payday for US would have to be astronomical to make us move.

[Box and Won]

For anyone who attended our games at the Family Arena (Box editorial - the "Family" Arena that hosts such family-friendly events as "IFC Caged Combat"), the Chaifetz blows that shite hole away in every way. There's no comparison.

That's city of St. Louis 1, St. Chuck 0. Thanks for playing. Good luck with event scheduling.

[Adman]

I don't get the "gouging" comment. No one is required to go to the games and if you do, the less expensive seats are MUCH better than the less expensive seats in Scottrade. Besides, if they had spent a lot MORE money to build a bigger arena, it stands to reason that they would have had to charge more to cover the cost unless the place consistenly sold out at 15,000 people - HIGHLY unlikely.

Why is it highly unlikely?

For moderately good Billiken teams under Spoon, the average was over 16,000. When the product is there, people will come. It is a proven fact. Most of those big crowds weren't Rams fans...they were alums and students and general basketball fans awakened from a multi-decade Billiken slumber.

That was accomplished without the major University commitment in place today; top fight coach and facility.

Now with a chance to capitalize on our market size, lack of NBA team, Rickma and facility, we underbuild. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall and reviewed the financials. Obviously, there was a budget. And it was crucial that the offices and workout facility be attached -- no question about it.

But was the overall budget built based on projected demand and resulting revenue? My guess is that it wasn't...it probably was based on what CL thought she could raise from various sources. If it was based on projected demand and revenue, either the incremental construction cost exceeded the incremental revenue ... or someone was seriously underestimating revenue. What would the debt service have been on another 3,000 seats?

But hey, I love the new building. In fact, I think the concourse is better than Scottrade. The bar downstairs - Lorenzini's - reminds me of the Busch Stadium club. Very nice. Anheuser-Busch made a major equipment investment there (as well as a significant cash investment overall.) I'm pumped. In a couple of years, the Bills will be the toughest ticket in town...

But have to admit I spent 10 minutes yesterday trying to figure out how to hang a mezzanine over the suites on each side Hate leaving money on the table.

Congrats to the U for making what seemed like the impossible 10 years ago -- possible.

[bonwich]

Not surprisingly, you're missing the point here. There have never been more opposing fans at a SLU game, not even close. I'm exaggerating to make a point here.

Not surprisingly, you and others are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Seriously, a "few dozen" fans have never taken the home court advantage away from SLU. I've heard lame excuses from our fans before, but this is the lamest. "Geez, those 50 Richmond fans really took the home court advantage away from SLU." Please!

Opposing fans have been showing up in those seats in the corner in recent years as ticket sales have dwindled. That is true. However, opposing fans always seem to buy their way in. Have you ever been to a Cards/Cubs game?

Nah, I didn't miss the point. And you changed the facts yet again {"seats in the corner"???) in your feeble attempt to prove your own.

I sit behind the basket. During one of the nonconference games this year against one of the real no-name teams, two or three rows of opposing "fans" (I'm pretty sure they were just local thugs who don't like SLU) sat within six rows of the court, behind the Billiken basket, and were able to heckle the Bills' shooters at the free-throw line, not to mention the kids on the bench. Did it affect the outcome of the game? No, we won. Should that kind of stuff happen at a "home" game? Maybe in your world.

In any event, if we have roughly 5K season ticket holders now, it ain't gonna happen in Chaifetz, because every row within 20-30 of the court is going to be pre-filled with homers.

[Pistol]

In any event, if we have roughly 5K season ticket holders now, it ain't gonna happen in Chaifetz, because every row within 20-30 of the court is going to be pre-filled with homers.

Make that 5,002 season ticket holders. I just put down a deposit on a pair of "Billiken Red" season tickets. I'll only be able to make a few games a year but my dad is buying the rest from me (staying in my name because I'm in the Billiken Club and want good seats when and if I move back in a few years). I can't even express how pumped I am for this- my first season tickets. Class of '05 will be in the house.

I misunderstood the process a little bit; I didn't realize they were only taking the $50-per-seat deposits at this point. I guess that's nice, but I was ready to shell out the total amount and get it over with. Either way, I made sure to tell the nice girl on the ticket office line that I needed Red seats.

Will the rest of the payment be due after they call back and we pick our seats? This pretty much locks up where my fat Economic Stimulus check from the Government is going.

[kevinfootes]

with a new ad i am sure there will be different focus, but both cheryl and mark wright have said prior that moving such a game would defeat the whole purpose of the pit and take away the hard work and donation advantages that loyal boosters had put in prior to that.

think about it. do we want north carolina there where 8,000 of the fans are wearing that hideous baby blue along with the rest of us, of do we want north carolina coming into our pit with no allies in the stands?

I'm afraid some of the bigger schools might want to avoid the pit. Let's hope RM takes us to the level where that won't be an issue.

[kevinfootes]

Nah, I didn't miss the point. And you changed the facts yet again {"seats in the corner"???) in your feeble attempt to prove your own.

I sit behind the basket. During one of the nonconference games this year against one of the real no-name teams, two or three rows of opposing "fans" (I'm pretty sure they were just local thugs who don't like SLU) sat within six rows of the court, behind the Billiken basket, and were able to heckle the Bills' shooters at the free-throw line, not to mention the kids on the bench. Did it affect the outcome of the game? No, we won. Should that kind of stuff happen at a "home" game? Maybe in your world.

In any event, if we have roughly 5K season ticket holders now, it ain't gonna happen in Chaifetz, because every row within 20-30 of the court is going to be pre-filled with homers.

I'm really not changing facts. Seriously, the section by the tunnel where the teams come out used to be season tickets and is now frequently filled with opposing fans. I thought that's what you were talking about. Mea culpa.

Thanks for admitting that a few dozen fans won't change the outcome of a game. We can keep the national guard away for the time being.

[kevinfootes]

You obviously have not been to many Billikens games. I am sick and tired of having Dayton fans, X fans, UNC fans, Mo State fans, Marquette fans, and SIU-C fans, etc. sitting in front of me in OUR house.

There will always be some opposing fans at the games, just like SLU fans make it to road games. Let's hope they're in the rafters from now on.

[slufanskip]

Footes, nobody that I know of has claimed that there were more fans of another team. Nobody said that 2 dozen fans changed the outcome of a game. What we are saying is that we don't want 1,000 or even 200 fans from opposing teams. We want the arena packed full of Billiken fans.

The argument about a bigger arena is silly, they built the largest arena they could for the amount of money they thought they could come up with. They had problems raising the money to build this arena and it took longer than expected to break ground primarily due to fundraising ... so a 13,000 seat arena was not feasible unless you were going to take all the offices and facilities away ... which (and I'm glad) they decided was not a good choice.

If they knew you (and others here) felt so strongly a nice donation could have helped get the larger arena built. As it is we have a very nice 10.6k arena that has some positives when compared to a larger one and of course some negatives.

If you pay it it will come .... it's that simple. I have no doubt that if they had the money to build a 13k arena with the facilities they would have ... they didn't.

[kevinfootes]

Footes, nobody that I know of has claimed that there were more fans of another team. Nobody said that 2 dozen fans changed the outcome of a game. What we are saying is that we don't want 1,000 or even 200 fans from opposing teams. We want the arena packed full of Billiken fans.

The argument about a bigger arena is silly, they built the largest arena they could for the amount of money they thought they could come up with. They had problems raising the money to build this arena and it took longer than expected to break ground primarily due to fundraising ... so a 13,000 seat arena was not feasible unless you were going to take all the offices and facilities away ... which (and I'm glad) they decided was not a good choice.

If they knew you (and others here) felt so strongly a nice donation could have helped get the larger arena built. As it is we have a very nice 10.6k arena that has some positives when compared to a larger one and of course some negatives.

If you pay it it will come .... it's that simple. I have no doubt that if they had the money to build a 13k arena with the facilities they would have ... they didn't.

Here's what bonwich said:

"The point is that there have been numerous occasions when enough opposing fans have been in Savvis that the home-court advantage was diminished. In some cases enough fans show up that the cheering sounds nearly equal. (This, of course, is due in part to the many Soma-nourished members of Billiken nation.)"

So no, no one is saying the outcome was changed, they're just saying the homecourt advantage is "diminshed" by a few dozen fans. I really don't want to try to determine how each single opposing fan diminishes home court advantage.

I'm saying there will always be opposing fans at games. Heck, one of my most memorable games came when Larry Finch's wife got thrown out of Kiel. She was in my section, and about 5 rows behind the visitors bench. I know those were season tickets, but she somehow managed to be there.

I'm with you and everyone else, though. Let's fill the seats to the rafters with billiken fans. Hopefully the season tickets will surpass last year.

[TEE]

Here's what bonwich said:

"The point is that there have been numerous occasions when enough opposing fans have been in Savvis that the home-court advantage was diminished. In some cases enough fans show up that the cheering sounds nearly equal. (This, of course, is due in part to the many Soma-nourished members of Billiken nation.)"

So no, no one is saying the outcome was changed, they're just saying the homecourt advantage is "diminshed" by a few dozen fans. I really don't want to try to determine how each single opposing fan diminishes home court advantage.

I'm saying there will always be opposing fans at games. Heck, one of my most memorable games came when Larry Finch's wife got thrown out of Kiel. She was in my section, and about 5 rows behind the visitors bench. I know those were season tickets, but she somehow managed to be there.

I'm with you and everyone else, though. Let's fill the seats to the rafters with billiken fans. Hopefully the season tickets will surpass last year.

Footes, I remember that, that was funny. Keep in mind the visiting team always gets a few rows behind their bench, the athletic dept. usually controls those tickets. so the memphis group that got into a scuffle with fans were not sitting in season ticket holders seats