Issue To Ponder

[Taj79]

Something I don't get .. haven't been able to get ... for some time now. I, like Nashville, haven't been on the board in a few days and have not nor will not read all the drivel that is spewing out there. The world has not come to an end with our loss to the Salukis but a really good team finds ways to win those games.

What I am pondering is why the void at the four? When we play essentially five guards, one center and one power forward. Why are we not playing any of the three guys recruited at 6'8" or better?

I mean, my pondering comes from this, you (Brad) recruited these kids (Obi, HD and AK), you (Brad) must have seen something that made you offer them $33K per year (SLU scholarship), you (Brad) must have said somewhere deep down that each provides something beneficial to the program, yet you (Brad) who control the sub patterns do not put them in. Are all three so much projects? If so, I would argue that you can't survive with more than one project on the roster at a time, and the last three years, that's been Bryce. Shucks, even Bryce doesn't get over a minute of playing time? You would think that a project like Bryce eventually moves into some sort of contributing role. Can someone offer some answer to this?

[TheRaginCajun]

I had warned of this prior to the season and everyone called me negative and full of ######. I told people that I did not think we had found the answer at the 4 and it looks like to this point my concern has come to fruition. The contributions we have received at that position from the legitimate power forwards is actually less than I had anticipated. I do question how Horace and Obi only have 33 combined minutes. If they can't get quality minutes in exhibition games, we can not expect to see them in any meaningful games. Didn't someone post on here how they applaud Brad for not wasting scholarships and sticking to his guns? I do not feel like bashing these kids like I did in the past, but we have several wasted scholarships sitting on our bench who are supposed to be the front court depth. It should not be that hard to find a serviceable power forward, I am willing to take on that effort for a reasonable fee. If these kids are the best this staff can do, show them the door and get some new blood in there who can do better.

[aj_arete]

I certainly can relate to the attacks from Billiken faithful, and Mizzou faithful, for that matter. If you're going to be negative (regardless, if you end up being right in the long run), you're going to get attacked. Notice my low rating despite never resorting to name-calling attacks.

I have no problems with you being disappointed with the season, but I feel I had more of basis to being critical in past years when SLU had to rely on a miracle run in Memphis to get into the NCAAs.

On the other hand, I think we should wait until the next two weeks to have a better idea where they're headed.

[TheRaginCajun]

I do not recognize your name from past discussions, but I am fairly high on this team, but have probably been overly harsh on the list of characters we have at the power forward position. I do not expect these kids to be huge contributors, but the fact that this is the best we can do at the 4 is unacceptable in my opinion. I have high hopes for this team as do most on this board, but the fact that we are throwing Luke Meyer out there at the 4 really gets me going and I do not want any excuses. If our assistant coaches can not bring in better talent then this, it is time for them to go.

[aj_arete]

This power forward position needs to be fixed soon. However, it is not as critical because we're in the A-10 conference. I don't know if there are that many 6'8 athletic PFs in the league, but I'll defer to 3-Star, who examines the league more closely than me. That's the difference between the high major conferences and conferences that are one step below.

Soderberg is about credibility and responsibility. There are certain expectations of players that must be met in practice or he won't play you. I like that. Hopefully, this reinforcement will hit home soon on the players. Unfortunately, many coaches compromise their standards (i.e. Quin Snyder) and will play players, who don't deserve playing time due to numbers.

While this stance might hurt the team in the short-run, hopefully, the players will get a clue by January and we'll see more production from the 4-spot. Regardless, you can win in the A-10 with superior perimeter play and I think SLU has the ingredients to do just that. Just be thankful that they're not in the Big 10 or Big 12.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I think the biggest question is if these guys are all projects or if it's just Brad's stubborness. And when I say project, I mean they simply can't compete at this point. This isn't anything new. Hell, it took almost half a season to put Kevin in the line up. I just think he is very nervous about playing unproven players. But at the same time, how does a player prove himself without playing. We don't have a choice with Bryce. He was recruited as a back up center, and that's what he is. Ian needs a break and he's the only other person on the roster.

I just have a very hard time believing AK, HD, or IO can't hack it on the D-1 level. Reports from the summer were that the guys were green, but AK was projected to get big minutes and IO was looking pretty good. They need to play. Brad needs to suck it up. We have two low rated teams coming up. I will be very disappointed if at least one of the new guys doesn't get significant playing time.

[billiken_roy]

taj i am not defending this, but i am sure the dilemna is that brad wants to play both polk and meyer. he likely feels that the two of them bring more to the table than each of the three freshmen.

from my standpoint, i think any chance to go into the ncaa at any more than a token appearance lies in developing one or more of those three players and i dont see that getting done in just practice.

for my money, as well as dwayne has done this year as compared to his previous two seasons, i'd start meyer at the wing, bring polk off the bench and leave meyer completely out of the power forward picture.

i'd start johnson and be bringing in at least two of the three freshmen bigs plus husak if he can keep up in that game to sub ian and johnson.

we should be rotating liddell, lisch, meyer, polk and brown at the three guard spots and ian, johnson and a combination of husak, and two of the three freshmen insiders. 10 players. there likely is a reason we are running down at the end of these games and playing only 7 players might be it.

[aj_arete]

runs as smoothly with Liddell running the point or Polk? The reason why I asked is that I've other coaches point out how Polk makes the team run. When he's not in the lineup, the offense just doesn't run as smoothly.

Look at Liddell's assist to turnover ratio, it doesn't compare to Polk. Liddell has an awful 17 assists to 27 turnovers, while Polk's ratio is infinitely better at 26 assists to 11 assists. That is a tremendous stat for a college point guard. I can't remember a Billiken, including H Waldman, who had a better one.

[billiken_roy]

cajun, obi, adam and horace's lack of time (and you can throw dustin in there as well) is likely not as much their abilities as it is the practice of coach soderberg to play the older players.

hell lisch didnt even start as a freshmen. until it became plainly obvious he was one of the top players.

who can forget the love affair with the likes of drew diener, or a tom frericks who was playing with a bruised brain, and a reggie bryant that could hardly run, or ross varner. it isnt enough to show promise or be as good, if a younger player is going to play, apparently he better be noticeably better.

i dont think this is a recruiting question.

[moytoy12]

I thought the offense ran smoother against SIU with Polk in the game. He's such a double-edged sword. He contributes as you point out above, but he scares no one with that shot.

By the way, i didn't realize how many lefties (and i don't mean pinko commies, Rich) we have.

[billiken_roy]

cajun, of course you are making this argument after a game that luke played pretty well as the power forward and led the team in rebounds. what points shaw had were primarily from the perimeter and not from inside play.

again, i want meyer on the wing as well. but i dont think we arent playing our inside guys because of the three freshmen talent issues as much as coach soderberg wants to maximize polk and meyer's minutes.

[TheRaginCajun]

Having a legitimate power forward is not going to kill us in the A-10. The majority of the teams in the A-10 seem to have one quality big, usually a power forward type player who plays the center position. With Ian playing center for us, we will not have matchup problems with Luke playing the 4 in conference play. That goes to show you just how weak this conference is. Can you imagine us playing Luke Meyer at the 4 against the teams in the old C-USA? I don't mind Soderberg holding players accountable before giving them a starting position, but these kids aren't even seeing the court. I would have to think that these kids would be playing if they could help this team and since they aren't playing, I am going to assume these kids are just not good enough at this point. Sure we will get by, but thats not based on our ability, but rather us being in a weak conference.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I would rather see DP start than LM. I love what Luke has done this year, and especially at SIU. He was the only guy that showed any heart. He's playing out of position and making the best out of it. But when Polk is in the game, we are a better team. The offense is smoother, and the running game becomes a major threat. He is a great pg, imo. Luke should be the first guy off the bench. I still want Luke getting a lot of minutes, but I'd like to see the rotation grown. Not sure if it has to be 10 as Roy implies, but I would like to add another PF into the mix and let our guards be GUARDS.

I'm afraid if we continue on this rotation and force our guards to play out of position, we are going to way too tired to compete in March. It's not about being in good shape, it's the bangin and bruising that goes on.

[billiken_roy]

polk has done great getting the outlet pass and pushing the break down the floor. but to be honest, i dont think he does any better in the half court game than tommie and at least when tommie has the ball he is a threat to score himself.

actually the best half court guard we have by far is lisch in my opinion and his asst to turnover ratio is pretty close to polk's who feasts on the break.

meyer also is leaps and bounds better in the half court game and seems to be able to at least get to the basket some when he has to in the half court game. polk cannot.

[Billiken Rich]

history depts...........

[TheRaginCajun]

I have been the driver of the Luke Meyer bandwagon, but for this team to be a legitimate tournament team that can make a splash, we need someone other than Luke Meyer starting at the 4. I believe Soderberg made these comments about a month ago.

[billiken_roy]

i dont know if polk creates fast breaks as much as you imply. he has the ability to take advantage of the opportunities simply because of his blazing speed. and when we are controlling the board it would be goofy not to have polk in the game.

however when we play teams like siu and texas a&m (stjoes last year dayton last year) that have the abilities to control the tempo, polk isnt going to change that likely and that is when meyer is going to excel.

now if polk could garner some made shots, then that might change my perspective, but for now, i would let the matchups dictate our player rotation of that other guard spot.

[aj_arete]

so I haven't watched Lisch that much. Admittedly, his assist to turnover ratio is pretty good. In the past, I've questioned how good of a ballhandler he is, but numbers suggest that he might be better than I thought. I think Lisch is a good athlete and great shooter with decent on the ball skills. However, I haven't seen the ability to run an offense from a half-court set, but then again, I've only watched him a couple of times.

[TheRaginCajun]

From what I have been told, Obi and Horace are not playing because they are not good and not because of any habit Soderberg has for playing veterans. This comes from those I know well who attend practice on a regular basis. Apparently Horace can't even remember the offensive plays and Obi is just extremely slow.

[moytoy12]

As a bit of a tangent, I am supremely impressed with Lisch. This year has been my first opportunity to see him play and he can play. After 4 years, i'll be interested to see where he plays pro ball. Regardless of how it happened (or who you ask on this board), that was a great get by UB and he deserves a lot of credit.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I have actually gotten to watch the team 3 times already this year (gotta LOVE the internet) and I feel much better about this team when Polk is in the game. He just seems to have things under control with the ball in his hands. He isn't the offensive threat of LM, but I really do feel he's a floor general out there. I love L&L, but how many times did Lisch get caught in that trap Saturday. I think 3 times. You don't see that happening to Polk. And while Tommie is clearly the best play maker on this team, he doesn't seem to have that leadership quality yet. I think Polk's lack of offense (it's getting better though) is outweighed by the other things he brings to the floor.

[kshoe]

I'd almost say you are criticizing coach.

[TheRaginCajun]

Rumor has it Kevin would have signed with SIU, but they didn't have his major.

Just kidding, I think Brad and lead recruiter from what I have been told, Jason Grunkenmeyer, need to be complimented for offering early and getting this kid to SLU. Angres Thorpe deserves credit for sticking with Tommie Liddell and getting him on campus because there were a lot of knowledgeable people who questioned if that would ever happen. The staff deserves credit for getting these two stars to SLU. Now they need to get to work on signing a power forward that can contribute. Any new information on Alexander? I will do some digging on this one and see if anything has changed.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Yeah....almost...

I've never been above criticizing the coach. I just don't like writing off the season 4 games in. Or calling for a guys head based on the number of stars some dude gives a player he's never seen. I've never said Coach was perfect. He has work to do...I just happen to think he can do it. Part of that is letting those reigns go a little bit.

[cheeseman]

Roy, is correct about the need to develop one of our #4s immediately. As of now we have exactly the team we had last year and we know that team was not able to get it done as far as winning the conf. or getting a bid to postseason play. If you keep digging in a hole in the same location all you get is a deeper hole.