Rich and Roy

[brianstl]

Rich, I didn't think you were attacking Grawer. I am sorry if my comments at the end of my reply made it seem that way. I was just stating that I really genuinely enjoy being able to argue about what we need to do to be a top 50 program. We were really close when I was a kid to losing that chance.

After the two year run in the NIT, the team become much more marketable. Up till that point on TV our color man had the job because his department stores and computer stores were the only companies that wanted to spend major money to advertise during the games. Now you had other people putting more money into game advertising and into the program overall. As you stated Grawer always looked wrung during the season and didn't look much better in the off-season. He is was not the guy people really felt all that great about putting as the face of their restaurant or car dealership.

When you add that to the fact that Yow wanted to put a stamp on her resume by hiring her own head coach, Grawer was done. Short of a winning season, with a talented but a super young team, Grawer was done.

Short term it worked out. Yow got the Maryland job. Boosters got their spokesperson for their companies. We made the tournament, although this would have happened anyway.

Long term it was the wrong move.

Roy, when it comes to in game coaching you can argue who was better. Ask longtime Evansville and XU fans what they thought of Grawer as in game coach. They will tell you he is one of the best they have gone up against. Ask UNLV fans what they think about Spoon as an in game coach. Their answer won't be kind.

As for developing talent, it is not close. Grawer was much better. You can ask Stipo, any of the players at MU when he was an asst, and his players at SLU how he improved there games. He was excellent when it came to improving the play of the big men. Hell he wrote a pretty well respected book about. Think about what he got out of the likes of Al-Martin and Hudson. Can't think of one true big man Spoon developed.

[billiken_roy]

unlv fans wouldnt know good coaching if phog allen and john wooden was standing in front of them. the only big time success unlv ever had was the team the shark bought that had what 6 future nba players on it? i think vtime could have won the national championship with that team.

as to grawer, i love rich grawer. when yow made the switch i was adamently furious. he totally saved the program and was indeed a fine coach. but i just dont have the same on floor respect for grawer that i had with spoon. and that is coming from a spoon detractor (because of his recruiting).

while you make great points about grawer's player development, a lot can be said for what spoon did for the likes of claggett, highmark jeff harris, etc. they came a long way from what they were their freshmen years. but what i think spoon really excelled at was reading a game and making adjustments to win the game. i always felt, if we were ahead or even close at halftime, with spoon i felt we were going to win.

also, spoon could coach defense. man they got after it.

as to spoon developing a big man, he never recruited one until he was ready to leave (tatum, braun and baniak) and then wasnt around long enough to do anything with them.

my comments about grawer were not to down coach grawer, but rather i just felt the advantages that spoon brought exceeded what grawer already had at slu. nothing against grawer. he is a true billiken hall of famer.

[brianstl]

Roy, my position on the merits of Grawer and Spoon have shifted many times over the years. I think they were very close in most ways. You are definitly right about the way Spoon's teams got after it defensivly. They were fun to watch.

I didn't think you were trying to put Grawer down. I wasn't trying to put Spoon down. I think they both really good coaches and they are both really good people. I just think that the Grawer firing started this whole cycle of starting over every few years. It shouldn't have been that way.

[Battlecat455]

It's good you fellows agree on the merits of both Grawer and Spoonhour. It's my opinion that Grawer literally saved the program that we all love to argue about today. He developed a reputation as an honorable man which assisted him greatly in the recruitment of local kids. He out recruited Stewart for Douglass and Bonner, regardless of what the Mizzouites would have us believe. He was unfortunately, rather humorless and unengaging to the media. I believe he is fellow one needs to meet face to face to appreciate. I had the pleasure of meeting Coach Grawer right after he took the SLU job. I was living in old Lewis Hall and Grawer stayed there the balance of the school year when Missouri's season ended. He was a credit to the University and to has faith and he was treated horribly and dishonorably by Debbie Yow and the administration.

That said, the hiring of Spoon was a PR masterstroke. IMO, Spoon was the superior tactician in game. He was also a great ambassador media-wise. One couldn't help but like the guy. Theories have been advanced as to why he was not a more effective recruiter. Rather than revisit, I will acknowledge that it was a weakness. He did a superb job with the Claggett/Highmark teams, both of whom, I believe, were Grawer recruits. Lack of administrative support hampered both coaches; a problem which is apparently ongoing.

It seems to me that the hiring of Romar was ill advised. There was never any chance that he was going to view the SLU job as anything more than a stepping stone. If he was successful, he would leave and if he was unsuccessful, we'd stink. The relative surprise was that he left after only marginal success. If memory serves, he was Washington's second choice.

Roy, your reference to Grawer as a hall of famer got me to wondering if he is in the Billiken Hall of Fame? There doesn't seem to be much effort made to recognize Coach Grawer and that's a shame.

[kevinfootes]

I'm pretty sure Spoon landed him, didn't he?

[billiken_roy]

yes, he came with hughes after they played on the same summer camp team.

[dennis_w]

grawer is in the billiken hall of fame. the biggest mistake in firing grawer was you lost contact with local recruiting. How many of th thames carrawells etc would grawer have brought in that spoon couldnt.

[Billiken Rich]

Good point but I still think Grawer needed a rest. Charlie did get us the hughes class but couldn't capitalize on it. Romar was a disaster (though a decent guy good recruiter out west.)

[Billiken Rich]

Did Grawer or did he not have a rebellion on the team? Did he or did he not have to go? Did he or did he not need a break?

I am asking because, though a youngling, I seem to recall a player mutiny that Grawer was unable to quell leading to his removal. I don't recall at the time Yow being a target of critics at all. We all know that the school hasn't always bent over backwards for sports.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Over the course of weeks, junior Melvin Robinson (transferring at the semester to Arizona State), sophomore (I think) Carlos Skinner, and junior (a juco transfer) McGlother Irvin all deserted Grawer and the team.

[Billiken Rich]

I guess the question I'm throwing out there is: Was Grower's firing justified? I'd always thought it was but I didn't follow the bills as closely then. Those defending Rich are talking about pasta and Yow being a climbing, coniving b----. What is the feeling of the Billiken community: Raw deal or justified?

[brianstl]

Do I Think Grawer getting fired was justified? The quick answer is no. Do I uderstand the decision? That answer is yes.

I don't know how you read into my post that I was saying that Yow was a coniving b----. She wanted only what most ADs do, to hire their own coach. To be consider a success here she was going to have to hire a coach that would be a success. It would not help her if someone else's hire was the success. This happens in every AD and in businees all the the time. Bosses want there people woking for them. Everybody knew the AD job here was not a destination job and Yow would eventually move on.

Some boosters wanted a face they felt comfortable putting with their product. Nothing wrong with that either. If they are spending big time bucks they have the right to have their opinion heard.

Was it an evil plan? No. Did it turn out to be the best thing for the program in the long run? No. Yow didn't even know Spoon was intrested in the job till after she fired Grawer and Tucci told her Spoon was really intrested.

I don't blame either of those to groups for what happened. It was Biondi's job to look out for the long term interest of the program. I believe he has learned from that. That is the reason Brad was hired and his position is safe.

[Billiken Rich]

Yeah I'm guessing I read more into your posts than I should have. Thanks for the info. As I said, at the time I was more of a casual observer of the program and hadn't heard anyone say Grawer shouldn't have been let go before. I'd always heard it may have been handled badly but that Grawer need to go.

[brianstl]

Sorry, Rich, I forgot to answer a couple of your questions.

I don't think Grawer needed a break. I think on off-season would have refreshed him. Grawer should have been told he had one more year at least with that recruiting class. He would have looked much better if that was the case.

Skinner and Irvin were bad news, Irvin in paticular. They shouldn't have been on the team. Grawer felt he had to take a chance on Irvin because his job was on the line.

Melvin is Melvin. I don't know if you have ever met him Rich. If you have, you won't forget it. At the time I heard both Floyd and Bonner told him to stay. Later on I heard Floyd actually told him to transfer when he did. Floyd and others were worried about who the new coach might be. They didn't want Melvin to have to sit out for a full year if he decided to transfer later.

[Billiken Rich]

I never met Melvin but I did hear some stories.....

[willie]

I knew Rich well and I agree he needed a rest. He was continually getting sick because he was run down. He had to put up with a lot of crap. There was very little support staff in those days. His biggest mistake was reaching on a couple of bad character recruits.After Upchurch he felt he had to reach to get over the top. In my opinion Rich was a great basketball coach who absolutely saved our program. In spite of some other comments I thought his X's and O's were very good. The man could design an out of bounds play with the best of them. All of this said it was time for him to go. If only Tony La Russa would go.

[Billiken Rich]

I'm with you on LaRussa. Though, when Sydney Ponson was the best pitcher the front office could afford I don't know that I can blame him for this......

I haven't liked our pitching staff as a whole since Kyle died.....

[kevinfootes]

Preface...I haven't replied to rich in a long time, but this is interesting.

I can echo the sentiments of some others in this thread. Grawer was a pretty good coach, but he did bring in some bad eggs at the end after the administration screwed him on the Upchurch deal. If Upchurch were allowed in SLU after he completed the deal that was given to him, Grawer would have made it to the big dance and history would have been quite a bit different.

In particular, Grawer had guys like Orlando Stewart (who punched John Duff at practice and then ran out of the gym), Carlos Skinner (a real jerk who should have been thrown out of SLU for some of things he did in the dorms), Mac Irvin (who actually quit the team during the middle of a game...I saw it and will swear that he left the bench, threw down his wrist bands and went to the locker room), and Mel Robinson (who had no business being accepted at SLU in the first place and needed Lee Winfield to come to his dorm room to wake him each day or else he wouldn't go to class).

Grawer did wonders for SLU while he was there and got no support from the administation. However, there are certain points that you can criticize. Especially early on he kept the handcuffs on guys. Monroe Douglass was a super talent but was hindered by being benched every time he made a mistake. Grawer was extremely slow to accept the 3-point shot as part of the game. Even though he had some very talented freshmen, he did go 5-23 during his last season. That's pretty tough to swallow. In 12 (or so) years he never made the big dance. I think that no March madness after more than a decade and a 5-23 season would do in 99.9% of the coaches.

Again, if the knuckleheads at SLU would have let Upchurch in, Grawer would have probably been the coach for 25 years.

[billiken_roy]

footes, great post for some of our younger posters that might not go back to the pre spoon days.

[billiken_roy]

brian, while i understand your frustration on the grawer issue, and i agree he was in a difficult position, i still say that now looking back all things considered, spoon was an upgrade that picked the program up to another level. gosh how i wish we would have gotten the spoon from ten years before that point. maybe he wouldnt have been as burned out on recruiting and the program might have exploded. grawer saved the program, spoon took it up a notch.

as to your thoughts on yow, i never knew her. i look back on the seating debacle when we went from keil to the arena as an ugly mark. but all in all she had a bigger vision that saint louis university badly needed. if she stepped on some toes, it was as much out of necessity to get on the path to what she wanted to accomplish probably not because she was a mean b!tch. if one considers what she has accomplished at maryland since she left slu, it is pretty obvious she would have been a difference maker.

the fact we likely did nothing or very little in efforts to get her to stay is scary. i hope when shimmy gets the call (and i cant imagine that isnt going to happen) i hope slu has learned their lesson and will do whatever is necessary to keep her the head lady billiken.

[brianstl]

Footes, Irvin quiting during the game is one of the craziest things I have ever seen in a game.