p diddy Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 in a previous post "loveforvouk" makes an interesting point about how "lucky" brad was to get TL, KL and Ian at SLU. such scenarios are quite common in college basketball, at mid-majors and high major programs as well. For example: 1. Was Tim Floyd a great recruiter at New Orleans when a former grocery store stock boy stopped by his office and wanted to play. He happened to be 6-10 Earvin Johnson, who played several years in the NBA. 2. I am from the chicago area and I saw dwyane wade play several times in high school and aau. if he had been a qualifier, he would have never been at marquette. all of the big 10 and other high majors took a pass because he did not have the grades. he was a partial qualifier and MU was one of just the few who stepped up and offered wade. wade wanted to go to depaul, but kennedy turned him down. Was Crean lucky or just that good. 3. darren brooks of jennings was offered by SIU and robert morris. nobdoy else. 4. Kirk snyder was one of the top schools on the west coast, but none of the major west coast schools offered because of grades. instead, he goes to nevada and they become a sweet 16 team and kirk is a first-round draft pick. 5. do you think the legend showed up at slu because spoon was a great recruiter. 6. With Kevin, we were fortunate that he didn't play a lot of high-exposure AAU ball and many high majors didn't really get on him until late in the game, by that time, slu was really dug in deep. The same scenario is true with the josh duncan kid from cincinnati, who went to xavier. If TL was a qualifier out of high school, all of the high majors would have been lined up. We saw that when he went to hargrave, we were lucky to get him back. The bottom line is who cares how a kid gets to a school (unless there's cheating of course). We've been fortunate to get some great players because other programs have gone to sleep and we took advantage. The same holds true with the converse. we've gone to sleep and some good players have left here and become big standouts. That's how recruiting goes. You can't and choose which players the coach gets credit for to suit your argument because you don't like the coach. bad boyz for life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikan Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 College basketball recruiting is a combination of luck and skill not unlike the recruiting that any organization does to get good people. The difference is that coaches are dealing with 18 year old kids who often have a lot of influences in their lives, some good and some bad. In recruiting for an organization to get good employees the following are key--at least in the perception of the potential employee: 1. A quality organization with good potential 2. Opportunity for advancement 3. Culture and personality fit 4. Economics 5. Potential for long term growth 6. Location In a sense, the same things are true in D1 basketball recruiting: 1. Kids want to play for a team that is good or at least has the potential to be good. 2. Playing time and the opportunity to compete for a starting job are important. 3. I think the culture and personality fit are more important than most people give appropriate credit. If a kid likes the coaches and likes the team and has a good "feeling" for the other players then the recruiting is much easier. Huggins is a perfect example. He creates a certain culture--sort of like modern pirates--where he says it is us against the world and we will show them! Certain kids love that approach--others might think it ridiculous. I think Brad has done a good job of selling his recruits on the culture of family and intensity. Not all players will like that pitch but those who do will be prime candidates and all we need is a few excellent players like Tommie, Kevin and Ian to make a real difference. 4. All D1 players get a college scholarship but we all know that some schools offer incentives that the Bills could never match. My guess is that we do not lose many players for this reason because we are not often competing for players who see college as a stopping point before they go to the NBA. I do know from talking to assistant coaches in the past that we have lost some kids because of jobs for relatives and other incentives that we could not and would not match. However, I think there are plenty of good players that we can get that will not be looking for an under the table deal with family members or AAU coaches, etc. 5. As we build the new arena and Tommie and Kevin and Ian bring us to a higher level this year it is my belief that we will be much better viewed by many kids over the long run and this should help recruiting. 6. Location is important. I know that many on this board will never accept this, but there are some kids locally who just want to leave town, period. I knew David Lee fairly well and he always wanted to leave town. He was never going to stay here for SLU or anyone else. He never said it publicly but that was his attitude. On the other hand, there are many kids who would love to play in front of family and friends like Kevin and Tommie. This is a huge challenge for the coaches. If they get the word from a player do they just move on even if he is a potential star--but if they do many on this board will rip them to pieces for not recruiting this "local" player. On the other hand does the staff spend part of its limited valuable recruiting time recruiting a kid they know they will not get becuase they need to show people that they are interested in the "local " kids. This is an incredible balancing act that is much more difficult than most fans understand. I personally believe that Brad had done a good job in recruiting but I say that because I believe that at least 2 of the 3 players we just recruited will be contributors by their junior year if not sooner. If they are all on the deep bench at that time that will mean either that we have an excellent team or they were not very good recruits. Time will tell. Stay positive! It makes you healthy and happy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenpais Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I'd agree totally with the above two analyses but add the following observations. The glamour factor: TV deals w/ ACC, Big 10, etc. The dream factor: Childhood dream to play for good old "State U". Slick coach factor: How does Calipari recruit so well to Memphis? These advantages make it difficult for schools like SLU and mid majors to ever have a realistic shot consistently at the top 100 kids. They just did an interview w/Cremmins here in Charleston. Now here's a guy who used to draw some of the best talent in the country to GT. He now says he's going to have to after a different type of player, one who will stay in school for four years. The biggies don't care if a kid stays a year or two, they just reload with the next batch of up and comers. Yes, lucks involved, see OJ Mayo at USC...Floyd's never met him face to face yet he's leaning toward USC because it's in LA, but for UB and his staff it takes a lot of hard work to recruit around the built in advantages of the prime timers. Hopefully, DM, AK, and HD are those gem in the rough types that take us to the dance the next 3-4 years and people scratch their heads and say where'd they get those guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorB Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 what is luck? somebody define it, because I really do not know what it means. sounds like a no-brainer, right? but it is not so easy. I think it is just a word that people use when they have trouble explaining cause and effect. i.e. it is just a label used by lazy minds. A great line comes from the film Empire of the Sun: Son: Gee Dad we are really lucky. Father: Yes son. Funny thing is, the harder I work, the luckier I get. sorry if this post ruins you morning crispy creme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveforVouk Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Thanks for proving my point that Soderberg has been the receiver of some luck in getting those players. Whatever you want to believe, coach didn't come in and woo them with our great education and killer gym, but there was more going on there then coach could encourage. There are several thinkgs that Coach didn't do to make them come here, but the players thought about stuff on their own. Lisch is catholic, so is SLU. UNLV is far from the East side and Tommie likes having his brothers (if he has any) or sisters (if he has any) or mom or dad or friends at the game. Maybe Ian came to SLU because other schools already had a tall Greek on the roster or maybe he liked the Arch a lot. Recruiting comes down to these features that can either lead a kid to SLU or away from SLU, I really liked the whole Larry Hughes mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Lisch is catholic, so is ND. Why didn't he go there? Liddell wanted to play at home: Illinois' and SIU are close. IV who in the hell knows how he got here...but he did...maybe we should credit Zeus for this pickup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p diddy Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 recruiting is about taking full advantage of what you have to offer. slu doesn't have all the glamour of national TV, big time financial support and BCS conferences to boast. anually, what slu has to offer to top stl. area kids is a chance to play a bundle of minutes at home for a competitive program. over the years, many kids have chosen to take advantage of this opportunity (monroe, roland, bonner, claggett, highmark, hughes, liddell, lisch). these were all blue-chip caliber kids that were recruited pretty actively around the country. (maybe not so much roland), but all of these top guys prospered because they played on winning teams that went to postseason, sellout crowds and they made big names for themselves. (KL and TL are on their way to doing this after just one year). high-profile schools such as michigan state, louisville, illinoi and memphis (and many others) have built national championship and final four programs off the same premise. living in illinois in the 80's, I saw the '84 illini go to the elite eight and the '89 team go to the final four with most illinois guys. they could have gone anywhere, but they just wanted to stay at home at go to UI together, especially the flying illini group. although it's tough for SLU to outrecruit the high-profile schools for TOP area talent on a yearly basis, those top kids who indeed make the choice to stay home did not waste their time and miss out on big-time college basketball. they created big-time ball right at home. TL and KL provided a little sampler of that in just their freshman years. bad boyz for life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Here is a fact ... You have no clue why they came to SLU, so how can you call it luck. If Randall gets Ian to come Randall gets the credit. If another player doesn't come because he doesn't have a connection with Thorpe ... that is UB's fault. Seriously ... you make less than no sense. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman and loyal subject of Billsboy and all ex D1 players and coaches everywhere. You da man Billsboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I know Lisch had a lot of recruiters come later in the game and I know Liddell received a lot of interest from UNLV, but were there and high major programs recruiting him? I was not under the belief that Liddell or Lisch could write their ticket to any school they wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Lisch and Liddell are from the StL area and we signed them; it is what it is. Maybe the coaching staff did not have to do as full of a sales job to these guys, but they were able to get them regardless. I think you have to give the staff credit for getting these two legitimate talents. I am sure people were a little upset when guys like McKinney, DLee, and Kalen Grimes signed elsewhere, so credit is deserved for getting these two players who had interest from other programs. The coaches played with the hands they were dealt and deserve to be praised for coming out on top with TL and KL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 anywhere? no. but lisch had big time offers. weber wanted him badly. even self had him at a camp and offered. crean was calling but i dont think he ever offered or even saw him play. however, crean screwed himself the previous summer when he failed to show up for a scheduled workout. brey wanted him at notre dame. he unoffically visited indiana and davis offered on the spot. i don t know who was after tommie. i would be surprised if cuomzo martin who was an assistant at purdue at the time wasnt offering. i had heard that mich state was very interested once he got to hargrove, but i dont know. i would think that jalensdad could fill us in. the point is, they werent trapped into slu by any means. soderberg had challenges but he had did his legwork up front and won because he worked harder earlier than the others. that isnt luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Roy, that wasn't the point I was making; I was just curious if anyone knew some of the schools after KL and TL's services. I had heard from someone close to the Lisch family that he was being recruited by Kansas. However, I do think a difference would have to be made from a kid like Tommie Liddell and a David Lee. David Lee truly could have gone anywhere he wanted, whereas Tommie was limited to lower level programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Who knows for sure ... but had Tommie not reexpressed his committment to SLU after the UNLV thing, I would bet there would have been plenty of big time offers. That is just an opinion though, I have no facts. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman and loyal subject of Billsboy and all ex D1 players and coaches everywhere. You da man Billsboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 tommie was likely limited out of high school because it was apparent he wasnt going to qualify academically, however he became a recruitable athlete upon the start of school the august after his senior year in high school. at the point he enrolled at hargrave, schools likely knew he was going to be available the next year and i doubt seriously he was limited to lower level programs at that point. you can bet that hargrave folks were in his ear about going somewhere other than slu as well. for brad to stand up to that and still get tommie to slu is an accomplishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I meant lower level as in comparison to the schools who David Lee could choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 While I agree with most of what you say there is one thing that is inaccurate. David Lee's reason for not choosing SLU were less because of the location than it was based on the comparison of SLU to the others schools he was being recruited by. Knowing David, he said that it was absolutely pathetic seeing SLU's facilities compared to the other programs. When he returned from his visit to SLU he said there was no chance he would go there. Mizzou seemed to be an outside chance for him, but he really built a good relationship with Billy Donovan and Florida was his decision. SLU had no chance and not just because he wanted to get away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikan Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I know for a fact that David decided that he was not staying in St. Louis or even in Missouri. He wanted to get out of town and play for a big name team. I am not being critical of David. I think the SLU coaches tried to recruit him but it was a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Billikan, I am not sure how you are connected to David Lee and I do not really care. In your original post you make it sound like his only reason for not choosing SLU was because of the location. This was by no means his only reason. He came back from his recruiting visit from SLU laughing. He commented on how poor the facilities were and how they are not even comparable to the other schools he visited. He did want to get away from St. Louis, but that decision was made easier when there was such a large descrepancy between the school in town and the other schools recruiting him. Everybody wants to get away for college, but if you have the best thing in your backyard, it makes you question going away a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikan Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 He was at my house a number of times and I talked to him. He was always very ambitious and in my view he always wanted to go out of town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 The Cardinals certainly out worked the other 29 major league clubs to identify and draft Albert Pujols in the 13th round of the 1999 draft! Nothing wrong with a little luck to go along with hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p diddy Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 that nice 2000 C-USA Championship banner looks pretty nice as well as that NCAA Banner from the same year. not only did K-Mart's broken leg get us some championship bling-bling, it also helped lorenzo get that nice gig at his alma mater where he has really blown up as a head coach. I felt a little sorry for K-Mart, but I felt really good about my Billikens after the miracle in memphis. i'm sure tom izzo and the flintstones felt pretty good about their national title that year, especially knowing that they didn't have to face cincy with a healthy k-mart along the way. bad boyz for life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorB Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Are those examples of "luck"? If so -- then again--what is luck? Nice try but not a very useful set of examples, after all. This is a metaphysical question and I am not expecting much insight on this list. I just wanted to point out what seems clear-- we tend to overuse the idea of luck. For example, regarding K-mart's broken leg. Is that good luck for SLU, bad luck for Cincinnatti, neutral for the vast majority of Americans who pay it little or no attention? or just an act of predictable outcome when certain stresses are registered on a human leg? Is it luck, meaning only that it appears to favor SLU? If you are really interested in this, I could direct you to some American cultural history. for example, we know that the idea of "luck" came to prominence in the years during and after the Civil War, when ideas of Go'd providence began to wane. Lots of people quit believeing in Providence, largely due to the bad stuff going on in that devastating war. According to this view, luck is just modern shorthand for: I cannot explain these events, so it must be some magical force called luck. Hardly anyone spoke of "luck" before those times. I cannot explain lots of things in life, and why they happen, but that does not mean I should just throw up my hands and say, "Boy that's lucky!" Again -- a term for weak minds. Sorry to spoil your crispy cremes again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikenbooster Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 The Bills were ahead in the game when Martin suffered his injury. I don't eat Krispy Kremes. mhg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Doc B stated....."we tend to overuse the idea of luck". If you claim it is overused....what is the proper usage of the idea of luck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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