Rivalry

[Pistol]

We don't need an official "rival," but anything to fill more than 7,000 out of 20,000 seats in the arena would help.

[JMM28]

>if anyone is a rival?

>

>i fail to understand this need.

It helps generate interest in a program through attendance and media coverage. It's a great part of any sport. Why do the Cardinals sell out when the Cubs come to town? Why does Mizzou sell out when KU comes to town?

Obviously for most of the people here, we're interested in the program regardless. Rivalry games get more student support, public support, and distant-alumni attention.

Plus, in 9-21 seasons, at least we can say "hey at least we beat team X".

[Pistol]

JMM, Why does the rival have to be a mirror image of us? Duke and UNC are nothing alike. XU and Cincy are nothing alike. Marquette and Wisconsin are nothing alike. Gonzaga and Washington are nothing alike. I could go on, but the argument that the schools need to fit the same demographic is awful. And being close helps, but that isn't the best reason either. Columbia is closer than Peoria anyway.

I know Mizzou fans don't dignify SLU enough to hate us. What I'm calling for is DEVELOPING a potentially very good rivalry. We don't have to call them our rival, and they don't either. But we should be playing them every year.

Comparing the Big 12 and the Valley is ludicrous. This past year was your best chance for that argument, and a season like it won't happen again. On a day in and day out basis, the Big 12 is leaps and bounds above the Valley, and I am not even a fan of the Big 12.

[Billiken Rich]

You're still missing the point. If we can't get the game on the schedule it's a moot point. Bradley/Creighton/SIUC make better games than UWMilwaukee. Maybe not as rivalries but as scheduled games.

PS We go into philly and kick the crap out of Temple and the hate will start. Three years down the line we could be rivals.....

[Pistol]

Why are you giving up on getting this game on the schedule? Mizzou hired a new coach a matter of weeks ago, so who knows if he'll actually see the value in playing us? I think there's a decent chance. Bradley, Creighton, and SIU make good games, I agree (and so does UWM, but I'm not sure where that came from). Get them on the schedule if you want, but don't replace Mizzou with them if you have the chance (and we do- Brad is trying hard, believe it or not).

And you think Temple is the next big rival? They have Villanova, St. Joe's, Penn, LaSalle, and a host of Big East schools within spitting distance. Your whole argument is based on a rivalry being reciprocated. Why would Temple care about SLU as a rival? It's a good in-conference game at best.

[StLouBlue]

I think SLU was developing nice conference rivalries in the old CUSA with schools like Louisville, Marquette, DePaul, UAB, Cincinnati and Memphis. Now in the A10, I think there is the potential to develop these conference rivalries with Xavier and Dayton along with St Joes and Charlotte. I think there is a difference between conference and non-conference rivals.

Mizz vs KU is a very good conference rivalry where each team has a home game against the other each year. There are many conference rivals and I think SLU will develop some in the A10 provided we are there long enough.

Non-conference rivals are a little different simply because each school must agree to be on the schedule. Creighton vs Nebraska is a good rivalry because it pits the only two div 1 schools in the state. MU vs IL is another good rivalry because they play it at a neutral site between the two schools where a large alumni base exsists for both schools. If this game was only played at home arenas once a year, this rivalry would lose a lot of its excitement and luster.

MVC schools like SIU, MO St, Bradley, Ill St are close enough to be rivals but there is just not enough excitement about these games from either school. E Ill, W Ill, SEMO and UMKC are just smaller schools that don't compete at the same level as SLU. I think really Mizz and Illinois are the two most likely schools to develop a non-conference rivalry with but since those 2 already play a game in St Louis each year and most years have no problems with home attendance there hasn't been enough of a reason to get SLU on the schedule.

[Billiken Rich]

Wanting Missouri won't make it happen (though we all hope it will.)

Perhaps this equation will help:

Rivalry = Hatred + Time

Many things cause hatred but usually it involes losing heart breaking games.....

[Pistol]

Totally agreed with the second half of that- I thought Stokes' buzzer beater would keep the fire going in this one, but Q shot it down. He decided that losing to SLU was too risky for his at-large chances, so he chose to lose to Belmont and Sam Houston St. instead.

I'm still holding out that Mike Anderson will do the right thing within a couple years and get this thing going.

[JMM28]

>JMM, Why does the rival have to be a mirror image of us?

>Duke and UNC are nothing alike. XU and Cincy are nothing

>alike. Marquette and Wisconsin are nothing alike. Gonzaga

>and Washington are nothing alike. I could go on, but the

>argument that the schools need to fit the same demographic

>is awful. And being close helps, but that isn't the best

>reason either. Columbia is closer than Peoria anyway.

>

The thing that Duke/UNC and XU/Cincy have in common are that they are within 15 minutes of each other/in the same city. Being close is a main reason for many rivalries. No one is arguing that Mizzou wouldn't be a good game, but itd be a very 1 sided rivalry. Bradley/SLU have a long history of hate. The reality is that a good part of both fanbases remember some great games between SLU and Bradley. While you or I may not, I'm sure a lot on this board do.

>

>Comparing the Big 12 and the Valley is ludicrous. This past

>year was your best chance for that argument, and a season

>like it won't happen again. On a day in and day out basis,

>the Big 12 is leaps and bounds above the Valley, and I am

>not even a fan of the Big 12.

That was a joke. However, they did have more teams in the sweet 16 this year than the Big12 and just as many teams in the field.

[Pistol]

Was Mizzou-SLU one sided for those 3 years (1999, 2000, 2001)? SLU took the first by two points, Mizzou won by a point, and then hit a buzzer beater to win by two. That's the farthest from lopsided you could possibly be. Mizzou had a terrible record last year and is rebuilding. SLU is perpetually in a state of building. I don't see how this is so uneven.

Bradley had a good year, but it was their first winning season in years. Now the main player that took them so far in March is history. They could very well be back to the bottom half of the Valley. I just don't see the appeal of this rivalry, and I can't believe that a history of good games with Bradley from 3 and 4 decades ago will get fans in the seats. It might only work for those who get a senior citizen's discount (and I don't mean that to insult the posters on the board who remember the SLU-Bradley heyday). The matchup means very little to anyone from the past couple generations.

[JMM28]

>Was Mizzou-SLU one sided for those 3 years (1999, 2000,

>2001)? SLU took the first by two points, Mizzou won by a

>point, and then hit a buzzer beater to win by two. That's

>the farthest from lopsided you could possibly be. Mizzou

>had a terrible record last year and is rebuilding. SLU is

>perpetually in a state of building. I don't see how this is

>so uneven.

>

Sigh...youre not following me. The 1 sided comment was about the intensity of the rivalry, as previously discussed.

If it was 1 sided in the W column, it'd be one sided in our favor, because Mizzou is horrible.

[Pistol]

Oh yeah, because Bradley's going to be the answer when it comes to intense rivalries. Once the SLU students found out we'd be playing Bradley, there would be lines to the ticket office forming weeks in advance. The Savvis Center would sell out, there would be rioting in the streets, and the media would be swarming. SLU-Bradley would replace Duke-UNC as the most famous rivalry in college basketball. Dick Vitale would finally keel over and die from excitement.

If you think there is more potential for mutual "intensity of the rivalry" between SLU and Bradley than SLU and Mizzou, then you have been locked in a time capsule since 1970.

Mizzou may have a lot of indifference toward SLU, but the fact that there is even an argument made for BRADLEY is staggering to me. I think we would all like to play Mizzou every year, and people on this board seem fine with settling on a Valley team that has had one winning season in the last several years. Instead of coming up with alternatives, push for Mizzou.

[kevinfootes]

I SLU has had a decent rivalry with SIU and MO State over the years, but not like a conference rival. As others hae mentioned, SLU has switched conferences so much that it's hard to get something going. SLU had a pretty good rivalry with Marquette and DePaul, but I don't think fans of either one of those schools felt the same way about it.

Even before the disaster of the past couple of years at mizzou, they've had trouble drawing fans to early-season games. The old building there held about 13 or 14K and the regularly drew under 10K for non-conference home games. With the exception of a couple years under Spoon, SLU has had plenty of empty seats in December. The game makes sense to play because it's a guaranteed big crowd and is a good rpi game. SLU also played Illinois very well a couple of times and the illini ran and hid too. That's a game that should be played as well.

You have to play a decent non-conference schedule, so why not play the better regional teams? You'd draw big crowds, wouldn't have to travel far, and help your rpi.

Let's get these games done Ms. Levick...and the other guys too!

[JMM28]

>Oh yeah, because Bradley's going to be the answer when it

>comes to intense rivalries. Once the SLU students found out

>we'd be playing Bradley, there would be lines to the ticket

>office forming weeks in advance. The Savvis Center would

>sell out, there would be rioting in the streets, and the

>media would be swarming. SLU-Bradley would replace Duke-UNC

>as the most famous rivalry in college basketball. Dick

>Vitale would finally keel over and die from excitement.

>

Why couldnt it be? It used to be. Bradley is a team that is building up a helluva program again. SLU is doing the same. Believe it or not, Duke-UNC wasn't always that special until they both started winning. The intensity of rivalries is constantly up and down. There are plenty of rivalries that are huge that don't have to be Duke-UNC. You seem to forget this once was a heated rival back in the old MVC days.

>Mizzou may have a lot of indifference toward SLU, but the

>fact that there is even an argument made for BRADLEY is

>staggering to me. I think we would all like to play Mizzou

>every year, and people on this board seem fine with settling

>on a Valley team that has had one winning season in the last

>several years. Instead of coming up with alternatives, push

>for Mizzou.

I am not saying we shouldn't play Mizzou. I just don't think it's that important. I think it is more important to branch out, get some midwestern exposure, and have some intense rivalries. Depaul, Bradley, Marquette, SIU, MoSt, and maybe a Creighton/Wichita State/UNI type thrown in there would be some options. Instead, we are playing teams like Kennesaw State and Chicago State.

Another thing to consider is the alumni bases in the cities. There are many alums in Chicago, Milwaukee, Omaha, Peoria, etc.

You also discount the Valley too easily. The Valley teams are and have been solid for the past 3-4 years. This wasn't a flash in the pan. The reality of the situation is that the Valley teams would be settling on us.

Would you have rather had Bradley or Mizzou on the schedule this past year?

[Quality Is Job 1]

Ace, thanks, I think. At this point I'm not exactly liking having the tag of any type of Mizzou fan attached to my name. I still follow the program and want it to get cleaned up and have more success, but I spend far less time following Missouri than I do Saint Louis. I post on a SLU message board regularly, but I have to talk myself into merely reading a Mizzou board on rare occasions (and even then I don't find it very enjoyable).

I'm a Billikens fan, and I follow the Mizzou program. I used to also be a Tigers fan, and maybe one day I'll get back to identifying myself as such, but not right now.

I was clearly rooting for the Billikens over Mizzou during the third game of the series, but I was happy for Mizzou that they won. But if the teams were to play this season, I would definitely be rooting for the Billikens and would be mad if the Tigers won. Don't ask me to explain the psychology.

[Pistol]

Mizzou, because I like big crowds.

I think what it comes down to is that we won't see eye-to-eye on this one. I really believe that Mizzou would be our best bet to get a long-term series going, no matter how bad their program may have looked last season in the wake of the Quin mess. You look at recent history and Mizzou has had a lot more success than Bradley, and unless Anderson can't get it together, they'll have more success moving forward.

Developing regional rivalries is important, but if I had to choose between the two, I would just rather do it with the biggest programs, like Mizzou and Illinois, than with teams from the Valley. I like those games (SIU, MSU) on the schedule every year, and I like the idea of playing as many solid regional mid-majors as possible (keeping in mind the alums in nearby cities), but not as the marquee matchups.

[billikenmetz]

The deal with Bradley is that A.D. Ken Kavanaugh didn't have a good relationship with Woolard, so he's got this chip on his shoulder about scheduling SLU. My mom and I had lunch with him and the Chiefs Club in April after the Basketball Banquet(my mom is the dir. of alumni publications at BU) and he told me that he and Levick have a good relationship and that Levick had the Valley AD's at Bellerive for a dinner/cocktails reception during the MVC Tournament, so there is some open communication with BU and SLU now, but I don't think they've come to the altar for hoops. BU has one of the larger contingencies of fans in St. Louis every year for the Valley tournament, and have a huge alumni base in the St. Louis metro area, so there would be another opportunity for BU alums to gather for a SLU-BU game. Besides, in recent years, BU hasn't spent the weekend in St. Louis at the MVC Tourney.

[billikenmetz]

Yeah, that won't change, even if SLU-BU renew on the hardwood...that's a rivalry that is set in stone. I agree 100%. Even the SIU game at Carver Arena can't hold a candle to the Ill. State game. They also do a lot of charity for both schools, with the students dribbling balls on 1-74 to raise money. That adds a nice touch to a pretty heated rivalry.

[udfan]

I am hoping that a rivalry builds between Dayton and St. Louis. There are a lot of factors that go into our rivalry with Xavier including recruiting. They are like a neighborhood rival, and there is a lot of history there. I have always been entertained by our games with the Billikens, and I enjoyed watching their excellent defense and exciting freshmen last year. I think there is some potential to grow a feeling that is something more than just another conference game. However, that type of thing is usually kicked off by some type bad blood that results from a tight conference title race or game. I'm not sure if my Flyers can contend this year. It would require some major contributions from freshmen and improvement from current players. I'm pretty confident in our gaurd situation, but we are thin in the middle unless our 280lb. center (Adedeji) can improve his stamina and our freshman big man (Huelsman) can contribute heavily.

[cheeseman]

OJ - in regards to your question about MU/SLU. The only reason people would like to see this game on a regular basis is because there are so many alums from MU in the St. Louis area coupled with the # of SLU alums it would be a big draw - even the event/sponsors think so given the money that has been thrown around to try to get such a game scheduled. Now, why don't we play SEMO or SMS - we do not do it every year - that is more then MU does with them. Since our basketball program has to draw well to make enough money to support the entire athletic budget, we have to schedule good draws. SEMO and SMS are not good home draws. We can eat one of them a year but not both. A MU/SLU game would make $500,000 for each team if played at Savvis - a win win for everybody. A game with SMS or SEMO will draw roughly the season tix holders and maybe a couple of thousand over if you are lucky on discounted prices. The problem is many SLU season tix holders will give their tix to alums from those two schools or the companies who own them will have their employees who are alums from those schools get the tix - net result no more revenue then if we play a buy game. Who are SLU's rivals - I do think our conf. changing has hurt that but you do not have to have a team in your conf. to have a rivarly. It could be any team that has something that ties the two schools and that they play every year. Xavier and Cincy are big rivals but they are not in the same conf. - Kentucky and Louisville - you could fine many more.

[cheeseman]

Pistol - I agree on your point about Bradley - it does nothing for me. When we had big rivalry with them in the MVC days - 35 years ago it was only because both of us were good then and we each ended up knocking each other out of the NCAA contention. If Bradley had been bad it would not have mattered.

[cheeseman]

Pistol - all your points are great and I agree regarding the MVC and this mirroring nonsense. However, you are not on target with the MU alums not hating SLU - just wait until we are recruiting the same players you will hear such rancor like you never have heard from them and if we get the player look out it will get even worse. They like to think it is cool to ignore us but when push comes to shove, they wish we would fail. Now, while fans in Columbia or KC may not care about MU/SLU - the local alums of MU do - look at the attendance at the last game at Savvis - great atmosphere and great game and great full house - in fact it out drew the MU/IL game that year.