What is reasonable for UB

[slu72]

there seems to be a division on the board, a house divided if you will, on how long is UB's leash. Many think if after next season we don't have an invite and/or a decent fall recruiting class...than we should go looking. An equal number think the stability thing is so important his term should be extended another 3 or 4 years, because that is our best chance at being annual invitees. I think 6 years is long enough, which would mean by the end of 2007-08 if we aren't dancing, he's got to go. Of course what might save him is the great class of STL area recruits, of which his son is one. Another question, if IV returns, which is likely, if he is a good enough coach shouldn't he have us in the dance this upcoming season. He's got the best big in the conference plus two all conf freshmen and 3-4 returning vets who he should be developing into better players.

[slufanskip]

this horse is already glue. I know it is slow, but everyone has stated where they stand on UB 7,987 times. Please spend your time sending out emails assisting my bid to play for the Bills. If someone wants to get a gym ... I am willing to work out for a few people, it will be invites only though.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[Billinikens]

After a bit of analysis, I think that the 2008 class being loaded with recruits makes it imperative to keep UB. Not only is his son part of the class and either teammates or friends with many of the others, it is too late now for any other coach to make inroads with those recruits once UB is (hypothetically) let go. He clearly won't be gone for the upcoming season, thus Spring 2007 is the absolute earliest he would be dismissed. By the time a replacement is found in the April 2007 timeframe, those players will be off the board or far enough along in the process that SLU would be pulling off a major coup if it got one of them. Given that information, I think UB is safe for at least the next two seasons.

To piggy-back that discussion, I think IV is crucial to UB's success. If IV comes back, that clearly maximizes next year's team potential. UB's best shot of landing those '08 kids is dancing next year, if it waits until the junior year of KL and TL, it will be too late. If UB can land some of that '08 talent, he could really build on the TL and KL success and have a truly successful career here.

Thanks for the post Slu72, considering all this has really brightened my hope for the Billiken future! (Although Stemler would really have been nice to improve the supporting cast in the meantime...)

[pompeytir]

If IV stays then I think that this team should be in '3' post seasons the next three years. I don't think that UB is going to get better recruits that the two of them. Lisch and Liddell are program builders and if he can't win with the two of them in the A-10 then he is never going to win.

[Quickdraw]

>and if he can't win with the

>two of them in the A-10 then he is never going to win.

If memory serves, he's already proven that he can. We finished third in the conference this year.

[pompeytir]

16-13 with an A-10 conference schedule is not very overwhelming. I'm a huge UB supporter (and I appreciate what he has done so far) but if he repeats 16-13 next year with IV, I would call that failure or underachieving. He's got the 'guns' to win the A-10 and at least go to the NIT this coming year.

[slufanskip]

I am a huge UB supporter also and I agree. IMO with IV, I will be disapointed if we are not in the NCAA tourney.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[StLouBlue]

I think Brad has and should have 3-4 more years to get this program straightened out. I also will not base Brad's job security on making the NCAAs. We are in the A10 which has received 1 and 2 bids the last 2 years. Unless the A10 jumps back up into 3-5 bid territory, this means we have to either win the regular season title or win the conference tournament. Since SLU has not won a regular season title in far longer than I can remember and has only won 1 conf tourney, to say Brad's job is on the line unless he can accomplish something rarely done at SLU is insane.

I think the reasonable expectations for our program are:

1. Recruit talent that will help us compete and win in the A10. I think everyone agrees Lisch and Liddell easily fall into this level. I hope that Obi, Knollmeyer and Maguire show us they belong as well. I am very happy with our class of Knollmeyer and Maguire and while a 3rd player may have added to our depth, I would rather have an open scholarship than bring in a player that would be a black hole at the end of our bench.

2. Develop the kids in the program. This is probably more important than recruiting, if you don't believe me look at some recruiting lists of the players ranked 100-300. There are plenty of kids in that range that don't do anything and likewise there are plenty of kids in the 300+ range that develop into solid players. I expect at least one of Meyer, Polk and Brown to improve a lot and all 3 to at least improve somewhat to add some quality depth to our team.

3. Brad to continue to develop as a coach. Brad showed some flexibility in his lineups this year, which he really didn't show in the past. He was not afraid to go to a 4 guard lineup and had coached the players to run this effectively. He has stated he wants to go more uptempo and I hope this happens. He gave his 2 talented freshman important minutes from the start of the season and lived through some of their mistakes.

4. Keep the program headed in a positive direction. This means to me, graduate players, no illegal stuff going on, ticket sales increasing, assisting in facility improvements, no player revolts and generally run a program the school and alumni can be proud of. Brad gets nothing but high marks across the board on this and I expect this to continue.

If Brad and his staff are doing these things, then the wins will come. Unfortunately we are not in the old CUSA where a 3rd or 4th place finish could put you into the NCAA tourney, we are in the A10 where our 3rd place finish meant we don't even go to the NIT.

[p diddy]

last year's season has things pointed back in the right direction, but UB must win impressively next year to improve his perception around the area basketball community. next season is huge for him.

winning will continue the positive upswing in attendance that we saw during the second half of the season.

he must change that perception that he plays a boring style of ball that will result in a bunch of 40 and 50 point games. like it or not, this is what most people think of UB, which makes it easy for other schools to kill him in the recruiting game.

UB has to loosen up and become more personable, with his players and in the community. his mentor is dick bennett, but that has proven to be a double-edged sword. true, bennett was an excellent tactician, but he is quite inflexible and stuck in his ways as a coach. brad has those same qualities, but it has proven to be his own undoing. he must figure out a way to loosen up as a said before. people perceive you as a tighta** and that is what they are going to tell potential recruits.

UB also has to recruit a few more athletic players on the roster. that's another perception around town. he doesn't want "athletes." Whether true or not, when others starting spreading that word about you, that could be a deal-breaker. you can win only so much with hard-working less talented players such as anthony drejaj, luke meyer and vas'shun newborne. less talented overachievers are key to a team's success, but when they are starting and playing more than 30 minutes a game, then you are asking to be consistently mediocre. this isn't lost on potential future recruits and the people who are in their ears on a daily basis. bobby hill is a prime athlete who can develop into someone like eddie basden or larry o'bannon.

when charlie tuna was on the radio earlier this year spreading the word that tommie might leave because brad's style doesn't fit, i took that very seriously. and i hope that brad did.

the final perception around town is that UB has trouble judging talent. hopefully, that will change and soon. there are so many quality players out there, programs can not win successfully without having top 50 or 100 players on the roster. sometimes, the mid-major schools get lucky and get a blue-chipper that's coveted by the big boys, but by and large, they all get it done by identifying who good players are and developing them over four years. we should be able to do that here.

so you see, it's a lot more than just how many games this team wins next year. if you do win, many perceptions may change about you. but if you don't, they intensify and you're recruiting becomes that much more difficult.

bad boyz for life

[jg99]

Coach Brad doesn't need top 100 players. With his coaching ability he only needs top 200 players to succeed. He will be in the NCAA tourney each of the next 3 years.

[davidnark]

>Coach Brad doesn't need top 100 players. With his coaching

>ability he only needs top 200 players to succeed. He will be

>in the NCAA tourney each of the next 3 years.

Why do you believe Brad has a superior coaching ability? Matelli and Gregory outcoached him a combined four times this year. Brad's ability to keep coach close losses against better talent doesn't mean a thing.

The belief on this board that SLU doesn't need top 100 players to compete is ridiculous.

[davidnark]

The University is about to invest $75 million plus in facilities. With that kind of investment, the university needs a coach that can recruit, build fan support, and coach the team to the tournament. Brad is 0-4 in achieving all of these goals. If he doesn't succeed this year, he needs to go--period!

I didn't like the hire four years ago and now, with four years of results to analyze, I like it even less. Dayton has the coach we should have hired.

[Billikenbooster]

David

I only count three in your requirements.

One losing season since he arrived, and that was due to 2 injuries to seniors on whom we were counting. The Stemler recruiting was going well til IU showed up at the last moment and snatched him away. I believe the fan support has been growing since he started, albeit behind the eight ball due to the timing of Romar's departure. Remember, he started about this time of year when he was hired. Any recruits we had left to go elsewhere, and we had to scramble big time.

I feel you are being too harsh. This is not the time to be making ultimatums, this is the time to line up behind him big time, IMHO.

mhg

[kshoe]

on our problems.

If a team is good enough to be in the NCAA tourney they should make it regardless if they are playing in the Big East or the A-10. If you need to finish in 1st or 2nd in the A-10 to make the dance but top 8 to make it from the Big East it is arguable which is more difficult to do. If it requires a 13-3 record in the A-10 to get to the dance then get it done! Is it more diffiuclt to go 13-3 in the A-10 or 8-8 in the Big East?

You state that one of your goals is to "Recruit talent that will help us compete and win in the A10" I honestly could care less where we finish in the A-10 I just want us to finish high enough for the NCAA tourney. That is the goal.

Please don't use the A-10 as an excuse for our failures to get to the NCAA tourney or NIT. We would have had a hard time finishing 8-8 with last years team in the old CUSA.

[p diddy]

davidnark,

you're homework assignment for the next few days.

I want you to find out how many top 100 players that Southern Illinois has signed during the past half dozen years. not many, yet they have been to five NCAAs and a sweet 16.

schools such as st. joseph's, creighton, temple, nevada, pacific, utah state, and countless others have enjoyed a lot of success recruiting top quality players who didn't have large reputations and big rankings next to their names.

Of course, everyone wants the best of the best to come to their schools, but when the top blue chippers decide to choose duke, UNC, UCONN, Syracuse, Kentucky, arizona every single time, you get the next wave.

It's a no-brainer to get a hughes or a winfield or any other top area player. but we also like players such as marque perry, maurice jeffers, reggie bryant, carl turner, jeff harris, ian vouyoukas, josh fisher, donnie dobbs. not to mention, the many excellent players from st. louis who are not necessarily ranked highly by the experts.

these players have been tremendous in billiken uniforms and they weren't considered "top tier" recruits by the "experts." you win games with these players. it's when you get sloppy that you get stuck with the likes of sekue berentine, greg hardin, vas'shun newborne, that get you into trouble.

UB has been falling into the same trap that lorenzo and sometimes spoon did. each wanted to the area's top blue-chip talent, but sometimes avoided recruiting the next level player. When area big time recruit went to big-time school, our guys were stuck recruiting table scraps.

big example: Lorenzo chased Maurice Baker (JUCO All-American). ignored darren brooks and phillip gilbert (not high-profile recruits).

the result: none are at SLU and drew diener winds up playing big minutes.

#2: brad went hard after colin falls from chicago, said no to ahearn and took darren clark instead. that year, phillip hunt was getting prime-time minutes as a walk on.

such diligence in recruiting would have avoided those peaks and valleys that we have experienced in our record for the past several years.

bad boyz for life

[Major Majerus]

I like this post, and I think p diddy hits the nail on the head with his 2 posts in this thread (as always). Short term is always subject to variables, but the long term shows the trend. I think 2 seasons ago was an abberation due to key player injuries. IMO, Brad gets to recruit his son's class; then coach them through their sophomore season. Then we'll have quite a history to look at, and this discussion would more appropriate. Maybe that's an oxymoron since this IS an internet chat board...but...I need more evidence. When he has his son as an informal recruiter, a new arena, and a new practice facility, then things should go his way. If not...

[StLouBlue]

I agree with your post especially about Brad having to change his perception and the team's perception from a slow ball, boring style team. This is especially important for the class of '08 because a lot of the '07 class will be signing LOIs before the games start.

I do expect a good season next year, say 18-20 wins obviously depending on the schedule and if IV returns. I hope local players will want to be part of this team with Lisch and Liddell during their jr and sr seasons. I also think another good winning season with local talent will increase our attendance along with our ground breaking on the new arena. I think we are headed in the right direction. Of course all it would take would be a player or two to leave or a losing season or another injury plaqued season to cause this to fall apart. Our program is a kind of house of cards right now so the next year or two will be key.

[StLouBlue]

My point is that we can have a successful season and still be left out of the NCAA tourney. Look at St Joe's in 2005, they were 19-11 and 14-2 in conference and went NIT. This year in the A10 there was a lot of parity, and I would guess that just about every team is expecting to do at least as well as they did last year. I don't see SLU having enough on paper to be considered to dominate this league.

To say NCAA or bust next year is setting ourselves up for a disappointment and I do think it is an unreasonable expectation. The NCAA should be the goal and it should be what our team is focused toward now and all through the season. It is just that we can have a successful season even if we fall short of the NCAA tourney in my opinion.

[StLouBlue]

I agree with your point of really needing more time to determine if Brad is our long term answer at head coach. As I said I think he needs to continue to develop as a head coach as well. If we are still seeing little offense, unable to blow out poorer teams, and a drop off in recruiting in the next 3 years, then he will have to go. Our program is not where we want it right now and improvement has to continue. I hope Brad can get it done and I think he can, but by no means is this a sure thing.

[kshoe]

because I will NEVER be happy with seasons we don't make the dance. The NIT is fine and those seasons can be considered OK but hoping for goals of less than the NCAA just isn't the type of program I want.

Sounds like St. Joes went 5-9 in non-conference play. Although they typically schedule very tough that is just a brutal record and that is why they didn't make the dance in 05. As the Bills also play a tough non-conference schedule and will have a chance to beat UNC next year, blaming our conference for not making the dance is just weak. If we muddle through another non-conference season with a .500 record then yes we will have to go 14-2 or better to have a shot at the dance. Don't suck in non-conference and we won't have that problem.

[slufanskip]

And Gregory was where last year? I"m sure he took over a program in better shape than UB did. Playing with his own recruits ... he sucked. You would be calling for his head right now also.

Gregory's record at Dayon

24-9

18-11

14-17

Looks like he did ok with the previous coaches players. Not so good lately. They seem to be going in the wrong direction.

Please don't give me the argument that he made 1 NCAA tourney. He began with a much better team the UB.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[davidnark]

Diddy, you raise very good points. However, to me the key question is what is the model program for SLU? Is it Carbondale or is it Marquette/Xavier/Gonzaga? I tend to think that SLU's conference affiliation, fan base, philosophy, and resources are more closely aligned with the latter. If you browse the RSCI (http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/) over the last five years, you will find top 100 players that have went to Marquette, Xavier, and Gonzaga.

I appreciate that Carbondale has proven it can be done with a lesser ranked player; however, Carbondale is willing to stockpile "undersized" athletes in the frontcourt, and Brad barely gives these types of kids a look.

The goal should be to land at least one top 100 recruit every year and to supplement that recruit with quality recruits who have long-term potential or who can fill needed rolls. The latter category of player can probably best be filled within 100 miles of St. Louis. I agree that Brad has paid dearly in failing to evaluate and sign these type of kids.

[p diddy]

Xavier, Gonzaga and marquette are good programs to emulate. much of their success started with a special season or two and they built on it. we should be at their level, but we haven't. why it hasn't requires a look back at history

gonzaga went to the elite eight in '99 with low-profile recruite such as santangelo, calvary, frahm and nelson. to monson and few's credit, they capitalized on that success and helped bring in more high profile recruits.

xavier did the same thing when gillen started winning big in the late 80's. we all are way too familiar with those larkin, hill and strong teams. they got it started and each coach afterwards has kept it going.

marquette rode wade to the final four in '03, but fell off in the next two years, but they were still good enough to make it to the NIT. But they are factor once again after getting those great freshman guards. their dropoff was NIT, not losing records.

the same thing happened here with slu in '94 and '95 with the two NCAA teams, 20,000 in attendance and national publicity for spoon and the program. (Special ESPN doubleheader against UMASs, Sports Ill. article and the works). SLU basketball was at its highest point ever in the modern era and recruiting here should have been much easier, given the state of the program with a popular coach with a magnetic personality. If there was ever a time when we should have recruited top talent,that was the time, but it didn't get done. we were in a position to be gonzaga before there was a gonzaga.

instead white went to georgetown, carrawell went to duke, woods went to wake forest, robertson went to kansas, alexander went to juco and then alabama.

who did slu get at the time. sekue berentine, greg hardin, corey grays, paul nondas, vergil cobbin, larry simmons that's fairly frustraing. those fans who have been around for a long time know what i'm talking about.

when claggett, highmark, H and Dobbs and Co. left, the cupboard was pretty bare. there were a few talented players there, but not enough to keep up the level of success, which is what the xaviers and gonzagas did. that's been the story of slu basketball for the past two decades. even under grawer, he had things going well in the mid 80's until the craig upchurch fiasco. that pretty much stopped his program dead in its tracks.

After our two big years, we suffered through two tough seasons, but spoon then hired derek thomas from CBC to get larry, along with justin's ordeal, brought larry to us. we had a great season with larry, but we struggled the following year after he left, then followed up with another NCAA in Lo's first year.

even after lorenzo's miracle in memphis, we struggled to sustain the success for his next two years. and lorenzo is one of the best recruiters in the country (as shown by what he has done at UW).

we missed a great opportunity 10 years ago and slu has been chasing its tails ever since trying to recapture.

For the first time, the ante has been upped with the new building on the way. once that project is done, that makes slu a more attractive program to potential recruits or potential head coaches if a change is made. I think the team will be very successful in '07. the question will be, can it be sustained afterwards?

sorry for the length, but i think these are important things to look at when you look at the up and down history of this program.

bad boyz for life

[pompeytir]

Just because Marquette shared a common interest in a recruit doesn't bring Marquette down to SLU's level. Marquette has always been able to recruit the Chicago area. They also have a history of NCAA success with several Final Fours and a Championship in '79.

I don't see a reason that SLU can't be on the same level as the higher tier A-10 teams. Gonzaga on the other hand is an aberration and have been able to win by recruiting internationally (Montreal, Puerto Rico and Brazil for a few players) and by lucking out on recruits. They have an identity right now and are able to recruit players to fill their system.

SLU doesn't have an identity in the basketball program, does not have the commitment from the Athletic Department financially to compete with big time programs.

To think SLU will be able to get a top 100 recruit every year is INSANE. One must have a truly distorted view of this program to think that. SLU is not a top 50 program nationally. SLU doesn't play in a top 6 conference. Nor does SLU offer a big time college basketball experience.

What SLU needs to do is continue to luck out with players like Liddell and Lisch, develop international players like IV and recruit the right people for a successful system/identity. The problem with SLU is at least offensively they don't have an identity.

This is a big year for Brad to develop an identity, have success and figure out what he and his staff need for the coming years and get those players. I don't care if rivals says that the player is a 3-star recruit and not in the top 100 if he helps the team win and can produce at the DI level with the system UB puts in place(if he does).

[slu72]

UB does have two inherent negatives in recruiting to SLU. The current facilities and lack of any recent success. The former is being fixed, the latter he has to fix, especially in recruiting the class of 2008, where his success there may depend upon what kind of coaching job he does this year and the recruits he lands in the fall. He also must recruit against his own perception, ie that his game is slow ball and therefore not attractive to a lot of players. Now if you win with slow ball that might help, but if you play .500 w/slow ball and stay home every March, that isn't going to do anything for you. Recruits are not going to be impressed by saying, "hey, we almost beat Gonzaga." UB's coaching style is his style, we aren't going to change him. It's his career and if he believes that is the way he's going to succeed, it's his choice, no matter how much we scream boring, dull, etc. Results have shown it's not working: .500 record, no dances, and it's not attractive to recruits. I don't believe there's anyone on the board that didn't think Scott's statement last year that TL was considering a move didn't have a ring of truth to it. TL's game is creativity, which is taboo in UB's system. Again, UB' s got two years max to figure this all out....he's the boss, the buck stops at his desk. I can't believe we're building a $75 mm facility to go and watch a mediocre basketball team.