Some still believe SLU should have gone to the Valley

[billiken_roy]

a point worth considering. as thicks just pointed out, the horizon is basically what was once the midwestern cities conference which slu was a part of. in fact the old mcc was probably stronger with xaiver and slu in it as well. thicks correctly points out that slu never went to one ncaa tourney while a member of that conference. yet i think most of us will agree that the bonner-douglas-gray teams were as deserving as any of the claggett/highmark or hughes or love teams that went to the ncaa tourney. in fact it could be argued that two of bonners seasons were the best billiken teams ever. where did they end up? nit.

[billiken_roy]

the more i think about it, the less i care about geography. we dont live in 1933 anymore. travel is less a concern than it was 70 years ago. this struck me when i went to philly last week and landed there in less time than i could have driven to a game at illinois state or evansville. and the way airfares are structured these days, it costs a hell of a lot more to fly into the remote cities of the mvc than it does the further national airports like dc or philly or pittsburgh.

[billiken_roy]

ironically, webber's great run at siu apparrently will leave a negative impact on the mvc. indiana was one of the last teams to visit a mvc arena to play an out of conference game. siu beat them and now the big teams wont come. congrats siu.

[cheeseman]

Roy - I agree with your point on travel. All I was trying to point out was that we are not talking about having to travel to California when going to A10 teams. Something I also forgot to mention was that the travel for SLU in CUSA is worse than it will be in the A10 - think about going to Tampa or TCU. UNCC will be the same. Also, in regards to your earlier post about the Bonner teams that were in the MCC but never got to go to the NCAA Tourney - don't forget that was when only 48 teams got invited not 65 like now. Finally, do you really think that those teams were better than the 1948 team that won the NIT - that was then considered the national championship tourney.

[thetorch]

In this weeks Sporting News Decourcy mentions that with the addition of SLU and Charlotte it is time for Fordham and Duquesne to find a mid major conference that will better suit their needs.

Frankly I see any mention of SLU from national media as a good thing. Even if they bashing us, in 99% of the cases just mentioning the team is better than ignoring SLU. Even if they don't like us at least they are talking about us.

[SLU8592]

The pros and cons have been presented before. As I recall, scheduling, attendance, recruitment, tournament appearances, etc. all favored the A10. While St. Louis is nowhere near the Atlantic in geographical terms, SLU does have more institutional similarity to the A10 schools than the MVC or really the CUSA for that matter. In addition, I believe the pool of potential SLU students is greater in the East than the West. Accordingly, IMHO the A10 sports exposure will also enhance student recruitment. If the proponents of the MVC decide to look at a broader picture, they should realize SLU isn't foremost interested in schools to which it can take bus trips for athletic events. This is a marketing move as much as anything. SLU now needs to capitalize on its coming East coast exposure. This really fits in with Fr. Larry's goal of increasing the school's national stature. Much more so than the MVC, I would think.

[billiken_roy]

good point about easy ed's team. of course my billiken fandom goes back to my college days which started in 1978. when did the 64 team format begin?

[Billiken Law]

>sighhhhhh. mu, the day we have the likes of siu or sms as

>one of our highest drawing games, i will tell you how smart

>you are. the fact is they arent. our highest drawing games

>year in and year out are the national teams and the

>conference usa top teams. the mvc does not have this

>mythical band of traveling fans you speak of. the fact is

>the mvc fan base actually sucks. they cant even get enough

>fans at their conf tourney to open the top bowl of the

>savvis. conference usa sells nearly 20k tix per tourney.

I'd have to disagree with that, Roy. Last year's MVC title game (at a neutral site) drew over 15,000 and it was a wild atmosphere. However, it's only because the home teams have played in the last 2 CUSA title games that the draw has been so large. Remember Louisville in 01, Memphis in 00 or even Birmingham in 1999? Nobody was there once the home teams were knocked out.

I also have to think that if SIU were not right after Christmas last year or if SMS weren't on a Tuesday they would have drawn more. I know I and many other Bills fans would make a trip to Evansville, Bradley, SIU or either ISU for a weekend game (would go to SMS this year if not for Christmas travel plans) but I highly doubt I'd make a trip to Richmond, St. Boneventure or any A-10 school other than Xavier or Dayton due to the distance and cost that would accompany such a trip. I have to think similar sentiments are the reason for continued skepticism of not joining the MVC.

Of course, that's all a moot point - SLU is A-10 bound and it's a done deal.

[kwyjibo]

You right that Temple is now a public school and wrong about Richmond.

But I brought up Temple as a school with religious roots, hence the name, it was founded by a Baptist minister and did mostly religiously inspired educating for a while.

[MU88]

>...and I'm still waiting for anyone who is knowledgeable

>about college sports and isn't in the pocket of a BCS

>conference (hmm, who might that include in national media?)

>to show me how the MVC could be better than the A-10

>for helping SLU better its position nationally.

>

>I give up on trying to convince people locally that the

>decision that's in the books is the best choice, because --

>bottom line -- SLU is St. Louis's team and they're going to

>have to follow SLU in the A-10 despite the fact that it's

>not the Valley, whether they like it or not. No, I started

>this thread because I'm concerned about whether the national

>media (like ESPN -- Doug Gottlieb) will stop looking down

>their noses at SLU.

You equate someone the favors the Valley over the A-10 as someone who is looking down their noses at SLU. That simply is not true. You ask how could the MVC better SLU position nationally? Well, how about an example?

Let's compare Creighton, the lone Catholic school in the Valley, with the Catholic schools in the A-10, namely, Duquense, Fordham, St. Bonnies, X, St. Joe's, Dayton and LaSalle. Duquense and LaSalle were also in the MCC, with SLU, for a short time. Do those schools' affiliation with the A-10 make these programs nationally known? It clearly has not helped Duquense or LaSalle. Are the A-10 teams significantly more successful than Creighton? These are the questions you have to ask.

You may suggest that X and Dayton are more nationally known than Creighton, but I doubt it. National announcers still cannot pronounce Xavier. As for St. Joe's, almost no one in America outside A-10 fans and those in Phily even know were the school is located. On the other hand, has the Valley limited Creighton's name recognition? I don't think so. I would suspect that Creighton's reputation is as national as X and Dayton.

Clearly, Creighton has been more successful than any Catholic school in the A-10. Creighton has made the NCAAs 5 straight years and is 2-5 over that time. X is 2-3 over that time period, Dayton is 0-2, St. Joe's is 1-2 and St. Bonnies is 0-1. So, Creighton has as many bids and NCAA credits as Dayton and X combined. Credits mean money. Hence, being a Catholic school in the Valley clearly has not limited Creighton's cash flow as compared to the A-10 schools.

If you win, whether its in the Valley or the A-10, the program will be considered "nationally." I would guess that in the areas that SLU recruits, St. Louis, Chicago, etc, the Valley has greater name recognition than the A-10. Who do you recruit against? It seems that a team like SIU comes up often when I am reading about your recruits.

I understand the reason for joining the Valley. You need to make the potential donors for the arena feel comfortable. However, don't think that SLU's future success will be assured because they chose the A-10 over the Valley. That decision will have little or no effect on the strength of your teams. You could have been successful in the Valley, you may be successful in the A-10. We will see.

[billiken_roy]

i always enjoy the mvc faithful that use creighton as the example when the truth is that creighton is the exception to the norm of the mvc. and even if you could guarantee the replication of creighton by a slu move to the mvc, please list the national out of conference home games the obvious head of the mvc class, creighton has managed to host in recent years.

i looked at the out of conference games for both conferences last year. and i looked at home games in particular.

last year the a-10 hosted the following teams:purdue, cincy, villanova (twice), marquette, depaul, illinois, indiana, wisconsin, usc, providence, pitt, charlotte, wake forest, uab, st louis, boston college and north carolina state.

the mvc hosted the following highlight team last year: byu, tulsa, kstate, oklahoma state, unlv, butler, iowa and iowa state. consider the fact that the state of iowa mandates that the public schools play each other, the list would really look bare if you dropped those two games. creighton's marque game was byu. as good as creighton is, the best team they can get to come and play is byu.

get a clue mvc fans.

[cheeseman]

I don't actually remember exactly but it was around when Spoon first came to SLU.

[cheeseman]

All good points. In addition, the comment that MU 88 made about comparing Creighton and Dayton and X is interesting but why doesn't he mention that all but one of those times they went to the Big Dance they had to win the MVC tournament to do so. Had they lost they would have been left outside in the cold. How many times did Dayton and X not win the A10 but ended up with an invitation? They both could not have won the A10 at the same time.

[cheeseman]

Another thing I forgot to mention was that if you ask the president at Creighton if he wants to stay in the MVC he would and has said numerous times that he wants to upgrade in conference affilation. So much for the MVC being this great conference - even the top team wants out. Creighton's problem is their location and size of market. Tough for them but a fact they have to deal with.

[MU88]

Out of those games, how many were against LaSalle, Duquense, St. Bonnies, Fordham, X, Dayton or St. Joe's? Face it, Temple can draw teams in, the others can't. X is complaining about their schedule, and Dayton will never get Marquette at home again, at least not after the way they ticked off Crean this year. UNLV drew teams in the Big West. If you fill the arena and pay, the ooc will be fine.

[Billikenbooster]

Official Billikens.com sponsor of John Duff

[Basketbill]

i am wrong. It had to happen sometime.....

[billiken_roy]

marque home games last year for a-10 teams:

xavier purdue and creighton

umass boston college and north carolina state

st joes had depaul

dayton cincy, villanova and marquette

lasalle villanova and penn

st bonnie st louis

richmond charlotte, uab and wake forest

rhode island usc kent and pitt

temple illinois, indiana and wisconsin

duschene (sp?) west virginia

fordham manhattan and west michigan

marque home games for the mvc teams:

indiana state butler and illinois chicago. congrats to the sycamores the toughest home out of conference schedule in the conference.

creighton byu and tennessee tech

siu wisconsin milwaukee and colorado state

sms wisconsin milwaukee and tulsa

withita state oklahoma state and k state

evansville butler and illinois chicago. (congrats to the purple aces for matching indiana state's schedule)

bradley unlv and pepperdine

no iowa iowa state and sienna

ill state illinois chicago and utah state

drake iowa and western illinois

give this argument up. the mvc has no strength of schedule. and you know it isnt because the teams dont want to play better teams, they cant get the games because they are in the mvc.

[Quality Is Job 1]

The NCAA Tournament went to 64 teams beginning with the 1984-85 season. That was the year before Monroe Douglass and Roland Gray arrived at SLU. So the argument that Bonner's NIT teams (1989 and '90) didn't make the Tournament because there were only 48 teams invited is incorrect.

[kpdgo]

Just a quick note about the A-10 member profiles:

Temple is a state school (as is Pitt of the Big East)

Saint Joseph's is a Jesuit school. In fact, Saint Joe's sent a request to the media that the university be referred to as "Saint" and not "St." In requesting the change, the school made note of the way your university's name is spelled out.