jarod leonard

[aj_arete]

Vashon is a dominant team because they illegally recruit. I don't have intimate knowledge of the inner working of high school recruiting, but I can't feel sorry for a private high school that is legally able to pick the best and brightest academic and athletic talents to their school.

You can't tell me that if you're an affluent, talented basketball player in St. Louis that you won't be inclined to go to DeSmet. There's a reason why they've dominated area hoops for 30 years. Why Chaminade dominates high school soccer and CBC dominates high school hockey. I think DeSmet's basketball skill level and relative athleticism to other county schools are more of a reason why they have succeeded rather than coaching.

As for Vashon's hand checking, I think you need to stop living in the 70s. Referees don't call fouls on players who place a hand on someone's back. If that's the case, UConn, Duke, Kentucky and all of college basketball would be played differently.

[davidnark]

Chaminade dominates high school soccer? It has been over a decade since I was in high school, but my recollection is that SLUH, CBC, DeSmet, and Chaminade are all equally great high school soccer programs. SLUH won a state soccer title when I was in school, and I know they have won at least one or two more since then.

[davidnark]

http://www.mshsaa.org/results/bracket.asp?Bracket_ID=318

2003 state soccer finals: SLUH 3, Chaminade 0.

[aj_arete]

Don't follow high school soccer that closely. I have followed high school basketball for awhile and until Kelvin Lee at Chaminade came along, DeSmet and CBC have dominated high school basketball. I also realized that Vianney have been decent the last two years.

What do you know? When you see talent being spread evenly throughout the Metro Catholic Conference, DeSmet all of a sudden isn't the power it used to be. Now this isn't supposed to be a knock on Steiner, who I've heard is a much solid coach than Burgman. However, we need to question whether DeSmet's past dominance was due to coaching or attracting strong talent.

[aj_arete]

at Chaminade shows that they were the state champions in 2001 and 2002. Then you show them being a runner up in 2003. Then you look at the SLU soccer squad and see that five players came from Chaminade. Sounds pretty dominant to me...

[courtside]

Difficult to respond because you are all over the place. I will try one item at a time.

1) This began with your reference to DeSmet not being fundamentally sound in basketball, at least in compared to other schools. Responded by saying they do not get great athletes, decent ones, who work harder, have more discipline, better fundamentals, and are better coached than other schools. Name all of those elite DeSmet college hoopster out there from the past since the 1980's. Joe Ries and Bob Keppel we covered. Gaona couldn't make it at SLU. Neither could Baniak.

2) Kevin Walsh(Vianney coach you mentioned of recent times)...hmm...ever go to a high school game...he sits next to friend Bob Steiner and scouts teams. He also learned a great deal from his older cousin, former DeSmet guard and coach, and current SLUH high coach John Ross, who has implemented the "DeSmet System" at SLUH. Just ask him.

3) This isn't about illegal recruiting, it is about point number one. I do know that DeSmet doesn't let non-qualified students in their school. So no they do not get pick of who they want despite being a private school. Bobby McCormick will tell you personally that CBC takes lesser academic kids there. DeSmet isn't quite SLUH standards but close. If you must know, Gauvain at Chaminade is a long time local club coach and gets those kids in recent years to go to Chaminade. Another club team funnels their kids to CBC.

4) DeSmet gets good, solid players to play basketball most years. There have been many years they have beaten superior athletic teams on coaching and discipline. That is simply fact. Most years they have better players than a lot of teams, but not necessarily better athletes. when DeSmet beat Vashon for title in 1999, they weren't as athletic, not close. When they then beat Hazelwood Central in quarters a few years ago, by 30 points, they weren't as athletic.

There simply aren't many teams,....some teams sure...but not many teams that have had DeSmet's fundamentals and discipline over the past few decades. That is why despite having up and down talent, DeSmet wins 20 ball games most years.

4)

[AlumniFan]

aj:

You are really out of touch with the private high school scene. First of all, the private boys schools experience INTENSE competition for students. There are plenty of affluent families who may choose CBC, SLUH, Priory, Burroughs, Country Day (MICDS), and others over DeSmet even if the student is a good athlete. To deny that just shows your ignorance. DeSmet has had a lot of success in athletics; that is undeniable, but so has SLUH and CBC and others. The fact is that there are a LOT of very good athletes who simply cannot get accepted to these schools so in at least one quantitative sense, the private schools have a distinct disadvantage over the public schools.

Additionally, there are many families that are NOT at all affluent who send their children to the private schools in St. Louis. It takes a tremendous sacrafice, but it happens all the time. Consequently, it is not as if the private schools are full of rich people who just sit back and pick the school with the best athletic program.

I have always thought of DeSmet teams as very disciplined and very fundamentally sound in most sports even if they are not very talented. Having played sports at DeSmet and having watched the school's athletics for 25 years, I feel that I am in a reasonable position to have an informed opinion on this topic. Perhaps you will disagree.

One other point: Your view of history is fairly short. Going back 30 years, I think you will find different schools dominated different sports on a rotating basis - there is no absolute dynasty although there have certainly be periods where one school has been dominant with Chaminade's recent soccer success an example.

[aj_arete]

Admittedly, I haven’t been an educated viewer of basketball until around five years ago. I’m a sports generalist. Now I remember watching DeSmet and Vashon for over the last decade or so, but I was younger at the time and didn’t know the nuances of the game. However, my question is why does the media and certain posters online constantly praise the fundamental play of DeSmet when they can’t get good guard play. I would think that is the staple of any fundamentally sound team.

Now 3-Star clarified the issue somewhat by saying that DeSmet is fundamentally sound in all other areas, including rebounding and defense. I can grudgingly accede that point, though I’d like Nate Latsch’s opinion too.

As for athleticism, I’ll agree that Vashon has a higher caliber athlete, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they can’t be more fundamentally sound than DeSmet. It’s just been my observation that when I’ve watched Vashon and DeSmet play lately, it’s been Vashon that seems to have the substance and DeSmet the flash. I thought Vashon showed more discipline, greater teamwork and effort than DeSmet the last few years. Now has that occurred for the last 30 years?? I don’t know. I’ll defer to you in saying that Vashon won their previous state titles on pure athleticism.

[aj_arete]

Well, Alumni Fan, I realize that there is intense competition with private schools for many reasons. In fact, it may be more intense now than it was a decade ago. But I view competition the same way MLB owners do. It’s not competitive when you see the same teams winning year after year. DeSmet and CBC have ruled the MCC for the last 30 years until the last couple of years. Now you can say that there were similar caliber athletes at Vianney, Chaminade and SLUH over the years, but I don't think that conference had that much depth. Then let's compare DeSmet to county public schools. Don’t think for a second that DeSmet and CBC didn't hold significant advantages over them until desegregation came along. Otherwise, you wouldn’t see a Parkway Central or Lafayette enjoy their modicum of success.

Now I realize and respect parents of limited means that have sacrificed to send their kids to private schools, but I don’t know where you’re going with that point. Yes, there is a Johnny Mack of Country Day, Justin Tatum/Larry Hughes of CBC that have made a difference for their programs, but let’s be real. Private school enrollment at the elite schools of DeSmet, CBC, SLUH and Chaminade is overwhelmingly high-bred, affluent families. To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous.

I highly dispute your notion that private schools have any sort of disadvantage over public schools because they have stiffer academic standards. High school associations agree with me and some have implemented separate classification for private and public. I'm sorry, but I refuse to feel sorry for DeSmet and their ability to attract quality basketball players.

Now I can be open-minded, but right now I have to say there are other basketball programs that are more fundamentally sound than DeSmet. That includes the athletically superior Vashon program. What do others think?

[DeSmetBilliken]

I meant beast in high school. My bad.

[DeSmetBilliken]

While Chaminade has had great success in recent years with their state titles in 2001 and 2002, plus their runner-up finish in 2003, MCC soccer is still very even. Normally each year 4 of the top 5 teams in the area are all form the MCC and it is very common to see 2 or 3 MCC teams ranked in the national top 25.

When it comes to regular season success over the last 10-15 years, I'd say that CBC is a cut above the rest. DeSmet won 4 state titles in a 7 year span from 1991-1997. Before finally getting over the hump and winning their two titles in 2001 and 2002, Chaminade had had championship caliber teams that couldn't get it done in the postseason. SLUH won in 2003 with a great team, but had some great teams with Taylor Twellman in the mid to late 90s.

I'd say that each year at least 4, possibly all 5, MCC teams have a legit shot of taking home the state soccer title.

[DeSmetBilliken]

>4) DeSmet gets good, solid players to play basketball most

>years. There have been many years they have beaten superior

>athletic teams on coaching and discipline. That is simply

>fact. Most years they have better players than a lot of

>teams, but not necessarily better athletes. when DeSmet

>beat Vashon for title in 1999, they weren't as athletic, not

>close. When they then beat Hazelwood Central in quarters a

>few years ago, by 30 points, they weren't as athletic.

The year DeSmet beat Hazelwood Central in the quarters by 30 was 2002, which was my senior year at DeSmet. Keep in mind that Blake Ahearn missed the entire postseason because he got injured late in the regular season by trying to be a big-shot and dunking the ball. He broke his wrist on the play.

As much as it pains me to say it, I consider my senior class of 2002 to be somewhat of a dying breed at DeSmet. We didn't have the amazing athletes like some of the other clases after us did, but my classmates were some of the grittiest, most determined bunch of guys I've seen play. In soccer, we came in 4th in state playing with a lineup of all seniors, none of which played D-1 soccer. It was all heart and determination. In basketball, even though the season ended poorly with a 55 point loss in the state final to an incredible Vashon team, they went from a team not considered to warrant any votes in the PD preseason poll to a state runner-up. Once again the seniors never gave up, even though only one of them went on to play beyond DeSmet.

Unfortunately, in the two years since my graduation, I have seen too many DeSmet players play like they don't have to hustle or play with grit like so many players that graduated from 1972-2002 did. By the way, one of my favorite things about Jared Leonard is that he plays with the grit that I think all DeSmet players should play with.

[Jalensdad2002]

>talent makes coaches look good. i remember lincoln's bennie

>lewis used to get invited to coaching clinics all the time

>to discuss aspects of basketball. what a joke that was.

>"well to break the press, i get to phifer to drive through

>the middle, and if he gets caught without a dribble, i have

>him throw it up high to lafonso ellis who then typically

>takes a couple of dribbles and dunks. that is the best way

>to break a press."

He did earn those 4 state championships.His genius was having his players prepared to play,also if Bennie found something that worked he stayed with it. The coach that replaced Lewis seems to want to prove to everyone what a great coach he is by running different sets every possession. Those Lincoln teams under Lewis ran 4 basic patterns. You could grabbed a player from 1979 and put that same player on the 1990 team and he would fit in seamlessly. Continuity was instilled in every player that passed through the system, as each player was schooled by the previous class. He was a very good coach, who was well respected state wide as he was named Coach of the 1980's.

[billiken_roy]

no disrespect to you jalensdad, but come on. i never gave dennis brooks any credit. and if you want me to pick between brooks and lewis, i agree, i would take lewis. at least like irons, he utlized the skills that he had on his team.

but still, imo while i wont dispute that the likes of lewis and irons did know how to get the best out of unbelieveable talent, is there a comparison for that and a coach like a dennis rueter at gibault high school who's teams play each winter with virtually no college talent and win 20+ games almost every year by executing offenses so percise that even the best big schools have trouble playing them? or a curt berger at red bud high school that runs the best match up zone in the midwest each year and enables his tiny school that plays with 6'1" 175 lb centers compete at the highest level night after night? i would love to have seen bennie lewis or irons coach some little 200 total enrollment school somewhere sometime and see if they win the state tourney then.

[billiken_roy]

i did not see desmet or vashon play last year, but in years past, i would have considered desmet more fundamentally sound than vashon. vashon does more things fundamentally sound than a lot of schools, but they are not the example to watch basketball by. i bet if you go to vashon film library, you can find plenty of examples where they did not seal any one out for rebounds but due to being superior athletes still got rebounds they didnt deserve. same with their defense, where you can probably find many instances of giving up baselines and then coming out of nowhere to swat a shot on a layup that shouldnt have even happened if the defender had did his job.

[aj_arete]

Unfortunately, I can't comment on Rueter or the Red Bud coach, but I see where you're going with that. There's no way Irons' system would work in Gibault. If Irons coached there, would he have adjusted his system? Maybe...maybe not.

However, I'm not so sure Rueter's system would have best utilized Vashon's talent. Would he have adjusted his system? And if so, would it have been successful? Who knows.

Now if you're saying that Vashon defenders were more out of position than DeSmet and only made up for it through athletic ability, I'd agree that they weren't grounded in the fundamentals. However, I must say in all of the years I've seen Vashon play, I don't recall seeing that. Maybe others can comment on that. Maybe they see something I don't see.

[aj_arete]

I've only read about Bennie Lewis and his players, so I have no personal knowledge. However, let's not assume high athleticism and good fundamental play are mutually exclusive. It seems you think one can only be considered a great coach if he can make the most out of little talent.

If that's the case, you can't say that Rick Pitino is a great coach. Could Pitino coached the Billikens and have the same level of success as Soderberg and Romar with the same players. Let's remember that Pitino ran the same uptempo style at Providence.

[billiken_roy]

pitino won at every school he ever coached. took mediocre providence teams as well as kentucky and louisville to very successful seasons. the only place slick rick did fail was the nba. and the talent level there is so high, i am not sure what it takes to win at the nba level.

[Schasz]

That we seem to be in the running for Jarod...the rest of these arguments I will leave to you local yocals to sort out as I could care less.

[billiken_roy]

the first time i went to see darius miles play in person was his senior season at a game in collinsville. it was easy to spot him during the jv game. he had a group of hangerons as big as a mike tyson entourage. at the end of the third quarter of the jv game, a number of east side players headed to the lockerroom as is the custom for high school basketball. however, darius remained on his perch in the top row of the lower bleachers amongst his people with his earphones in his ears and his "music" blaring to the point i could hear the base thump 4 rows in front of him. i was disappointed as i assumed darius was apparently injured and would not play that night. i warned my son our trip might have been for nothing.

just as the jv game ended, darius rose and walked to the lockerroom and a couple of the men sitting around him followed. within seconds the east side team bolted from the lockerroom and darius was the trail guy in the layup line. soon bennie and his group of about 6 coaches strolled out. the two men that had been sitting with darius were included in this group.

the game began and miles and phillip gilbert just dominated the entire game. i am pretty sure darius ended the night with a quintiple double as he had doubles in points, rebounds, blocked shots, steals and assists. probably the single most amazing high school performance i have ever seen (the only thing that would approach it in my memory bank would be teddy dupay's shootout show).

last note, at halftime, darius didnt even go into the lockerroom with the team. he sat at the end of the bench with the two coaches and flirted with the cheerleaders.

great job bennie. really sent a message about teamwork with allowing that traveling carnival show.

[Jalensdad2002]

>dennis rueter at gibault high school who's teams play each

>winter with virtually no college talent and win 20+ games

i would love to have seen bennie

>lewis or irons coach some little 200 total enrollment school

>somewhere sometime and see if they win the state tourney

>then.

That's the point. These schools with tiny enrollments by and large play other schools with tiny enrollments. It's even ground. Those East St Louis Lincoln teams played some of the better teams in the state during their amazing run. People always want to put an asterisk behind Lewis' accomplishments as if coaches like Phil Jackson, Pat Riley(lakers),and K(Duke) go to battle with inferior talent. I don't know how isolated that incident with Darius Miles was, but I think it more of an indictment of Miles character than Lewis' ability to coach.

I seem to remember Lebron James getting the star treatment. It's just one of the many ailments that is now beginning to infect prep hoops.What would you have Lewis do? Bench Miles. Everywhere they played Miles drew a crowd, Lewis was qouted as saying it was like a traveling circus. He had to make concessions. Despite what Miles was saying at the time, everyone in East St Louis knew after Miles' jr year he was going to make the jump to the NBA.

[billiken_roy]

i beg to differ. i would have had extreme respect for lewis had he benched miles the first time he pulled the i am too good for the rest of the team off the court routine. while i agree it was a difficult situation to be in. as i am sure it would have risked miles walking out on him and nike making sure he ended up on some corrupt program elsewhere, still at least bennie would have known he had done the right thing and maintained control of the team as any coach should.

the problem is these damn aau programs. they are just out of control and too few are on the up and up. (for about the millionth time, read "sole influence" by dan wetzel)

[Jalensdad2002]

i would have had extreme respect for lewis

>had he benched miles the first time he pulled the i am too

>good for the rest of the team off the court routine. while

>i agree it was a difficult situation to be in. as i am sure

>it would have risked miles walking out on him and nike

>making sure he ended up on some corrupt program elsewhere,

>still at least bennie would have known he had done the right

>thing and maintained control of the team as any coach

>should.

As seamy as this comment may seem, but Darius Miles was what was best for the team. I don't think Lewis ever lost control of the team,they made the state finals. Darius Miles being a member of the team allowed for greater exposure for the other players on the team. Many of whom earned scholarships to lower level colleges. As far as I know there wasn't infighting on the team due to Miles' fame. These were some special times as he would later be drafted the highest of any prep b-ball player. It couldn't have been an easy position for a coach to be in.

"The problem is these damn aau programs".

I am in a 100% agreement with that comment.

[billiken_roy]

points well taken jalensdad. i guess i dont know if i coulda handled it differently if in bennie's shoes either.

btw, i was very disappointed to see darius in the middle of that drug stop last month in east st louis. one would think he would have been told by his agent, his mom, his coaches, etc to stay away from his "roots", or if he insists on it at least being in control. he was lucky it wasnt worse.

[Jalensdad2002]

i was very disappointed to see darius in the middle of

>that drug stop last month in east st louis.

That goes back to my comments about Miles' character. One should not have to be told to stay away from drugs and guns. It's common sense. If Miles were anyone else he would have been incarcerated. Unfortunately a lot of black celebrities who emerge from poverty have this thing about "keeping it real". It's a need to be seen as one who hasn't sold out. The biggest flaw in this type of thinking is that the sole reason one wants to achieve riches is to live a better life. The only reason you should return to a place of despair is if you are attempting to help others. Sadly that was not Miles intent when he was stopped. He has a lot of growing up to do. I remember seeing him in the St Clair Square surrounded by probably the same type of people who were in his vehicle when he was stopped in East St Louis. This was during All-Star Weekend, I remember thinking why isn't Miles at the event. If nothing else he could have possibly gain some insight from the present and past NBA All-Stars. It's a shame that this kid who started out will little and who has gain so much may end up losing it all in the streets of East St Louis. After viewing the stop on tv I spoke with Liddells parents and told them they would do very well in keeping Tommie away from Miles, whom Liddell idolizes.

BTW Liddell is in New York competing at the Addidas ABCD All- Star camp.