brianstl Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 You are aware that most top ten programs don't finish anywhere near the top ten annually? They will on occasion, but it's not as if its the same teams every year. By this I mean, take the past 10 years, only a small handful of teams have finished in the top ten close to annually. Being a top ten program overall means losing early in the NCAAA's some of the time. The quantity of teams that move in and out of the top ten in any given year is many. SLU has been included in this group as well during the season in recent memory. This would also apply to end of year postIseason results, that the quantity of those teams is many and the teams change with frequency. SLU has not finished in this group as often in recent years. I've heard some people compare soccer to basketball. It never should be. Soccer isn't going to be a few year situation. It's non-revenue and not comparable. I've heard others talk about 35 and 45 years ago. Well, a lot has changed not surprisingly in that time around the college soccer landscape. There are a lot more good teams. Parity is huge. 14 different conferences represented in the most recent RPI standings. Many strong programs have sprouted in the Midwest alone. SLU can still be a good, strong program. And, it has been during the regular season during the tenure of the current regime, with a lot of success vs elite competition and winning the league title every year but one.. And, the post-season results have been strong for the first half of the post-season years. Soccer isn't basketball. One mistake can cost you a game. It's a much more cruel sport. There's no reason why SLU can't compete at the highest level, which includes scheduling strong non-conference, which it has done, and getting results in those games, which it has done most years, exiting early from the NCAA some years while making deeper runs every few years when it comes to post-season. That's what happens with the very best teams in college soccer. SLU hasn't had enough conference tourney success nor mixed in a deeper NCAA run in a few years beyond the 2nd round. When was the last time SLU finished inside the NSCAA top 20, nuch less the top 10? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 When was the last time SLU finished inside the NSCAA top 20, nuch less the top 10? SLU final reg season ranking in NSCAA poll: 2006 ...7th 2007...12th 2008...23rd Four times in eight seasons, SLU's final regular season ranking was in the NSCAA top ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 SLU final reg season ranking in NSCAA poll: 2006 ...7th 2007...12th 2008...23rd Four times in eight seasons, SLU's final regular season ranking was in the NSCAA top ten. Wrong. Final post season rankings. 2006-21st http://www.nscaa.com/seniorRes.php?it=304 2007-22nd http://www.nscaa.com/seniorRes.php?it=755 2008-21st http://www.nscaa.com/seniorRes.php?it=929 I like how you tried to twist it by using the pre post season ranking. I don't care where SLU has been ranked during the season. I care how they finish the season ranked. That actually tells you something. Again, when was the last time SLU FINISHED in the top 20? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Wrong. Final post season rankings. 2006-21st http://www.nscaa.com/seniorRes.php?it=304 2007-22nd http://www.nscaa.com/seniorRes.php?it=755 2008-21st http://www.nscaa.com/seniorRes.php?it=929 I like how you tried to twist it by using the pre post season ranking. I don't care where SLU has been ranked during the season. I care how they finish the season ranked. That actually tells you something. Again, when was the last time SLU FINISHED in the top 20? I'm not wrong. I used the the final regular season rankings. You asked when is the last time SLU finished in the top 20 or top 10 and I answered it. Clearly the results and facts don't fit your agenda. I didn't give SLU's during the season rankings. I gave their final regular season ranking. And, it does matter, and I do care how SLU does during the season. Let's take 2006, the National Champion was not even ranked in the final regular season top 25 in NSCAA, neither was the runner up. Neither were several more teams. I use all facts, not just pick and choose some to fit an agenda. The facts are SLU has finished in the final regular season NSCAA poll 4 times in 8 seasons, among other top 15 or 25 ranking years. 6 times in 8 seasons SLU has won the regular season league title in two different leagues. SLU's non-conference schedule has been second to none and the results of those schedules have been very strong most seasons. Where SLU needs to do better is in the conference tourney, which it hasn't won the past four seasons. The expectation is not to win the conference tourney each year, but it should be to win it every few years. And, SLU hasn't had a deeper NCAA run past the 2nd round in several seasons. The regular season of those 6 or so nonIranked teams a year that get ranked after the postIseason, matters. Just as, the postIseasons matter for highly ranked teams that drop. It isn't just one or the other. It's also relevant to look at how the totality compares to many other programs and see where it sits, good, bad, indifferent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I'm not wrong. I used the the final regular season rankings. You asked when is the last time SLU finished in the top 20 or top 10 and I answered it. Clearly the results and facts don't fit your agenda. I didn't give SLU's during the season rankings. I gave their final regular season ranking. And, it does matter, and I do care how SLU does during the season. Let's take 2006, the National Champion was not even ranked in the final regular season top 25 in NSCAA, neither was the runner up. Neither were several more teams. I use all facts, not just pick and choose some to fit an agenda. The facts are SLU has finished in the final regular season NSCAA poll 4 times in 8 seasons, among other top 15 or 25 ranking years. 6 times in 8 seasons SLU has won the regular season league title in two different leagues. SLU's non-conference schedule has been second to none and the results of those schedules have been very strong most seasons. Where SLU needs to do better is in the conference tourney, which it hasn't won the past four seasons. The expectation is not to win the conference tourney each year, but it should be to win it every few years. And, SLU hasn't had a deeper NCAA run past the 2nd round in several seasons. The regular season of those 6 or so nonIranked teams a year that get ranked after the postIseason, matters. Just as, the postIseasons matter for highly ranked teams that drop. It isn't just one or the other. It's also relevant to look at how the totality compares to many other programs and see where it sits, good, bad, indifferent. I haven't looked at the rankings, but it seems the final rankings are something different than the final regular season rankings. It would seem the final rankings (after postseason) would be the best measure of where SLU finished. Kind of like the college football rankings after the bowl games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I haven't looked at the rankings, but it seems the final rankings are something different than the final regular season rankings. It would seem the final rankings (after postseason) would be the best measure of where SLU finished. Kind of like the college football rankings after the bowl games. I disagree. They both matter, not just one or the other. There are lots and lots of soccer teams with strong seasons that don't advance past the NCAA 2nd round, just as there are several non-ranked to lower ranked teams that have a strong post season. So when Vanderbilt's basketball team was ranked at the top during the season a few years ago, but was upset early by Siena, ...the regular season didn't matter or count? That's absurd. An NCAA result is one of many aspects that go into a season or program. No one is saying that NCAA results don't matter, or the conf tourney or many other things. They all matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 SLU final reg season ranking in NSCAA poll: 2006 ...7th 2007...12th 2008...23rd Four times in eight seasons, SLU's final regular season ranking was in the NSCAA top ten. So he asked when was the last time SLU FINISHED (finished generally means the END of the season) and you answer with their final regular season poll and you accuse him of just giving the facts that meet his agenda. Are you kidding? That was you that just gave the facts that met your agenda. Why didn't you put what the ranking was when they actually finished the season. How about 04 unranked 05 unranked 06 - 21 07 - 22 08 - 21 Just so I'm objective - I don't have NSCAA rankings for 01-03 but I have College Soccer News 03-6 02-15 01-6 Why the drop off? Please don't rehash the obvious, I'm interested in why. Here's a fact ... after this year SLU will not have ended a season in the top 20 in 6 years. Before you state it's wrong to include this season, I feel so confident they won't finish in the top 20, I'll give you 5-1 odds on $100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I disagree. They both matter, not just one or the other. There are lots and lots of soccer teams with strong seasons that don't advance past the NCAA 2nd round, just as there are several non-ranked to lower ranked teams that have a strong post season. So when Vanderbilt's basketball team was ranked at the top during the season a few years ago, but was upset early by Siena, ...the regular season didn't matter or count? That's absurd. An NCAA result is one of many aspects that go into a season or program. No one is saying that NCAA results don't matter, or the conf tourney or many other things. They all matter. And I'm guessing that the "final" rankings take all of these factors into consideration. If not, then your argument has some merit. I'm guessing they do though. I'm not sure why you accuse Brian of cherry picking facts, when you did the exact same thing. Then you even go on to say that both rankings matter, yet you omitted 1/2 of that equation from your initial post on the rankings. I question whether that's being objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 And I'm guessing that the "final" rankings take all of these factors into consideration. If not, then your argument has some merit. I'm guessing they do though. I'm not sure why you accuse Brian of cherry picking facts, when you did the exact same thing. Then you even go on to say that both rankings matter, yet you omitted 1/2 of that equation from your initial post on the rankings. I question whether that's being objective. Brian only cares about NCAA results. I consider that to be one of many aspects of a season or a program. The best teams don't always win in the NCAA's. Some teams might make a deep run, and then miss the NCAA's altogether or exit early the next season or seasons. You seem to have the same mentality by saying "half.". What about all of the other weeks of rankings too? They count. Overall SLU's regular season results have been good enough most seasons. SLU's results against the elite teams has been good. SLU's record vs recent and past rivals has been good. SLU has won the league 6 of 8 years. In 8 seasons, the NCAA results have been 2 quarters, 1 3rd round, 2 2nd round, 1 first round. SLU can and needs to do better in terms of winning the occasional conference tourney, as it is valued a good amount. SLU also needs to mix in a deeper NCAA run that it hasn't done in recent years past the 2nd round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Brian only cares about NCAA results. I consider that to be one of many aspects of a season or a program. The best teams don't always win in the NCAA's. Some teams might make a deep run, and then miss the NCAA's altogether or exit early the next season or seasons. You seem to have the same mentality by saying "half.". What about all of the other weeks of rankings too? They count. Overall SLU's regular season results have been good enough most seasons. SLU's results against the elite teams has been good. SLU's record vs recent and past rivals has been good. SLU has won the league 6 of 8 years. In 8 seasons, the NCAA results have been 2 quarters, 1 3rd round, 2 2nd round, 1 first round. SLU can and needs to do better in terms of winning the occasional conference tourney, as it is valued a good amount. SLU also needs to mix in a deeper NCAA run that it hasn't done in recent years past the 2nd round. I'm talking about the response to brian's question and nothing more. You gave a misleading (intentionally?) response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 So he asked when was the last time SLU FINISHED (finished generally means the END of the season) and you answer with their final regular season poll and you accuse him of just giving the facts that meet his agenda. Are you kidding? That was you that just gave the facts that met your agenda. Why didn't you put what the ranking was when they actually finished the season. How about 04 unranked 05 unranked 06 - 21 07 - 22 08 - 21 Just so I'm objective - I don't have NSCAA rankings for 01-03 but I have College Soccer News 03-6 02-15 01-6 Settlle down Skip. In the two year period of drop off, SLU had several underclassmen turn professional, including the National Freshman of the year, and those players weren't adaquately replaced. Multiple players gave notice of their not coming back shortly before the beginning of the following season. In one of those two seasons, SLU was a league co-champion and many thought should have been an NCAA invite. It isn't the first time in history that has happened. In the past couple of years, SLU twice lost to eventual NCAA quarterfinalists. One of those was on a 40yard shot and the other in very late extended rounds of PK's. last year SLU lost in the 2nd round v Indiana without Kyle Patterson and with an unhealthy Calum Angus. You asked, I answered. Again, you are also a person seemingly only interested in NCAA results annually. I am interested in those among many other things. Clearly SLU has fared very well during the regular season in recent years, and most of the past 8 years against a strong schedule. And, I already listed those results. SLU has lost a few close games in the NCAA's 2nd round twice and first round once in recent years. SLU won more of those games under the same coach previously, under his own recruits previously as well. Nobody has said SLU that it isn't reasonable for SLU to mix in better NCAA results to go along with previous ones. It's not reasonable to expect that every year, but more often than lately. And no one has said that SLU shouldn't be winning the conf tourney part of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I'm talking about the response to brian's question and nothing more. You gave a misleading (intentionally?) response. Actually no, I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Actually no, I didn't. My bad, since you said you didn't, then it's obvious you didn't. Facts be damned. It's obvious you think DD should hang around and others think differently. In the future, I'll try not to get bogged down in pointing out the various holes in your statements, hypocritical stances you take and lack of objectivity you actually maintain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 48 SLU students have closed out their Billikens.com profiles as a result of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 48 SLU students have closed out their Billikens.com profiles as a result of this thread. Great, there goes half of the student attendance for the home games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 My bad, since you said you didn't, then it's obvious you didn't. Facts be damned. It's obvious you think DD should hang around and others think differently. In the future, I'll try not to get bogged down in pointing out the various holes in your statements, hypocritical stances you take and lack of objectivity you actually maintain. Nope. I answered the questions that were asked, from multiple posters. As usual, all relevant subject matter is included in objective fashion. The comments, as usual accurately describe the situation with appropriate good, bad, and indifferent information. It isn't surprising that my posts won't sit well with those who yell and scream or with those who only care about deep NCAA runs annually. Even people like yourself will either make things up, or assume things instead of taking what's typed at face value in its entirety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Nope. I answered the questions that were asked, from multiple posters. As usual, all relevant subject matter is included in objective fashion. The comments, as usual accurately describe the situation with appropriate good, bad, and indifferent information. It isn't surprising that my posts won't sit well with those who yell and scream or with those who only care about deep NCAA runs annually. Even people like yourself will either make things up, or assume things instead of taking what's typed at face value in its entirety. Brian had a question about final rankings. In your answer to Brian's question, you posted rankings which many people would consider not to be final rankings. Debate ensued. Last word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 all i know is after the last couple of soccer threads that have turned into courtside beatdowns, i am now a regular soccer thread reader. i might even have to learn how the game of soccer works to bring even more meaning and enjoyment into the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Brian had a question about final rankings. In your answer to Brian's question, you posted rankings which many people would consider not to be final rankings. Debate ensued. Last word. I answered questions from the original poster, Skip, etc...Brian asked a question, I answered his question. Now you are speaking for "many" people. Brian also was only interested in the NSCAa top 20 even though it ranks the top 25. But I took his post objectively, and answered it so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I answered questions from the original poster, Skip, etc...Brian asked a question, I answered his question. Now you are speaking for "many" people. Brian also was only interested in the NSCAa top 20 even though it ranks the top 25. But I took his post objectively, and answered it so. Maybe because the top 10 was brought up. I decided to double that. The Regular season is part of what voters take into account when they vote on post season rankings. To act like it isn't is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 all i know is after the last couple of soccer threads that have turned into courtside beatdowns, i am now a regular soccer thread reader. i might even have to learn how the game of soccer works to bring even more meaning and enjoyment into the series. I wouldn't say I've beat other people down. I merely have answered people's questions as best I can objectively in a respectable manner. And, no need for you learn anything, most of the soccer threads these days consist of people who don't see any games. You'd fit right in actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Maybe because the top 10 was brought up. I decided to double that. The Regular season is part of what voters take into account when they vote on post season rankings. To act like it isn't is a joke. And, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I answered your question. It was a factual question. You are the one who doesn't seem to value the final regular season rankings in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I wouldn't say I've beat other people down. I merely have answered people's questions as best I can objectively in a respectable manner. And, no need for you learn anything, most of the soccer threads these days consist of people who don't see any games. You'd fit right in actually. Thanks for a funny day today. My girlfriend was reading the posts and got quite a laugh at your responses. She thinks you drink too much or are on narcotics. She wanted to know if you were objective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Thanks for a funny day today. My girlfriend was reading the posts and got quite a laugh at your responses. She thinks you drink too much or are on narcotics. She wanted to know if you were objective Your girlfriend is more than welcome to sign up and post in the soccer threads. She'd fit right in too. I just hope you don't get as angry when you are with her as you do in some of your posts here. That'd be unfortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I wouldn't say I've beat other people down. I merely have answered people's questions as best I can objectively in a respectable manner. And, no need for you learn anything, most of the soccer threads these days consist of people who don't see any games. You'd fit right in actually. This is proof that you only read what you want to and not actually what is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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