Indiana HS All-Stars

[BIG BILL FAN]

Yes, Jordan was never cut from his high school team. That is a popular legend. Jordan, as a sophomore, did not make the varsity team. He played the year on the jv team as many sophomores do. The "cut" legend implies that he was no longer a part of the team and that the coach was a fool for cutting him. I have an article about the coach where the coach talks about Jordan. He knew Jordan was a great prospect, but he had 6 or 7 seniors returning who had formed a good team. He thought Jordan needed more seasoning on the jv team. But he was not "cut."

He was cut from the varsity, so yes he was cut.

[DoctorB]

thanks for the list: ESPN just wrote last month their top 50 HS players of all time--

(although I cannot get the top 25, only 26 through 50 -- what gives? -- o wait, I got it!)

However, I notice in the sidebar, in the list of those not making the list:

the name, again, of George McGinnis. One more travesty regarding the legacy of Big Mac. Clearly the list favors contemporary pros, or "stars", but I bet most of them would not hold a candle to big George in his heyday.

[DoctorB]

wait a minute-- NEWS FLASH!

I just googled the Naismith basketball hall of fame, and I cannot believe my eyes, but George McGinnis is not even in it yet!

Can anyone on here please explain that one to me? Am i missing something here? I will not bother to list all the names of guys in the hall of fame who were nowhere in the vicinity of Big Mac, but please, someone explain. -- Again, I think I know a little about the game, and George is among the 5-6 best players I ever saw string 'em up.

(I know why Pete Rose is not in the baseball Hall, someone help with this mystery??)

[DoctorB]

I guess I'm just getting curious, and a little annoyed, about this topic....

I found this list of non- Hall players, with a score calculating the chances of them getting in:

Georege is #22, for one thing-- a joke. I liked Chet Walker and Jeff Hornacek, but give me a break! Ron Harper could not even wipe George's jock strap.

2nd, I was shocked to realize guys like Haywood, Gilmore, and Dennis Johnson are not even in the Hall.

1. Paul Westphal 143

2. Artis Gilmore 140

3. Spencer Haywood 138

4. Bernard King 135

5. Dennis Johnson 134

6. Jack Sikma 125

7. Larry Nance 122

8. Kevin Johnson 121

9. Buck Williams 121

10. Chris Mullin 120

11. Gus Williams 120

12. Mitch Richmond 118

13. Maurice Cheeks 118

14. Dennis Rodman 118

15. Marques Johnson 118

16. Otis Thorpe 117

17. Ron Harper 117

18. Reggie Theus 117

19. Sidney Moncrief 116

20. Bill Laimbeer 116

21. Jeff Hornacek 115

22. George McGinnis 114

23. Paul Silas 114

24. Chet Walker 113

25. Terry Porter 113

26. Mark Price 113

27. Bob Dandridge 112

28. Walter Davis 112

29. Randy Smith 110

30. Jojo White 110

[thetorch]

The basketball HOF is messed up. There should be separate college, and pro HOFs but there is just one. It makes the evaluation and selection process convoluted.

McGinnis enjoyed his best years in the ABA. One strike against him. The last year of the ABA he was the best player in that league. He goes to the NBA and his numbers and value drop although he is still a star. By the time he is 29 he has morphed into a role player. He had 5 or 6 great seasons but certainly not a long lasting career. Many many talented basketball players have this career arc. Early on they look like HOFers but due to injuries, or in the 70s rampant drug use their careers end or their play breaks down prematurely. I would compare McGinnis to someone like Penny Hardaway or maybe Jerry Stackhouse. Great great players in the short prime.

Haywood had that one spectacular year in the ABA his rookie year he was MVP averaged nearly 30 and 20 but going to the NBA he became just another star. He had some very good seasons but I think he was just very good for 10 years or so not HOF worthy by my criteria. And once again he fits the profile a guy who was very very good until he was 26 or 27 and then fell off for the rest of his career.

Gilmore is one my favorite players of all time once again probably not a HOFer. He dominated the ABA. When he played in the NBA he became just a very good player on mostly bad teams.

The ABA has become similar to the ***** leagues in the baseball HOF. Lip service was paid to it, they let in a few players who played in the league but now they have hit their quota. The ABA is seen now as more of a circus than real basketball and the players that dominated the league have been downgraded because of it.

DJ would be the Ozzie Smith of basketball. Too bad basketball HOF voters value defense even less than baseball voters do. DJ was a very good offensive player as well but his defense was all world all time. He should be in the HOF, a lot of people don't see 20 points a game next to his name and label him a role player. He was much more than that.

[Quality Is Job 1]

The basketball HOF is messed up. There should be separate college, and pro HOFs but there is just one. It makes the evaluation and selection process convoluted.

McGinnis enjoyed his best years in the ABA. One strike against him. The last year of the ABA he was the best player in that league. He goes to the NBA and his numbers and value drop although he is still a star. By the time he is 29 he has morphed into a role player. He had 5 or 6 great seasons but certainly not a long lasting career. Many many talented basketball players have this career arc. Early on they look like HOFers but due to injuries, or in the 70s rampant drug use their careers end or their play breaks down prematurely. I would compare McGinnis to someone like Penny Hardaway or maybe Jerry Stackhouse. Great great players in the short prime.

Haywood had that one spectacular year in the ABA his rookie year he was MVP averaged nearly 30 and 20 but going to the NBA he became just another star. He had some very good seasons but I think he was just very good for 10 years or so not HOF worthy by my criteria. And once again he fits the profile a guy who was very very good until he was 26 or 27 and then fell off for the rest of his career.

Gilmore is one my favorite players of all time once again probably not a HOFer. He dominated the ABA. When he played in the NBA he became just a very good player on mostly bad teams.

The ABA has become similar to the ***** leagues in the baseball HOF. Lip service was paid to it, they let in a few players who played in the league but now they have hit their quota. The ABA is seen now as more of a circus than real basketball and the players that dominated the league have been downgraded because of it.

DJ would be the Ozzie Smith of basketball. Too bad basketball HOF voters value defense even less than baseball voters do. DJ was a very good offensive player as well but his defense was all world all time. He should be in the HOF, a lot of people don't see 20 points a game next to his name and label him a role player. He was much more than that.

Now this is good message board discussion! Torch, you must be quite a historian of the game.

[ACE]

Garnett was raw and skinny out of HS. It took him a couple years to be a star. He only averaged 10 and 6 his rookie year. Guys like Malone and James were stars the moment they turned pro. Malone averaged 18 and 15 as a 19 year old. James 20, 5 and 5. It is also always brought up that Jordan was cut from his HS team so he wasnt' that good in HS. He was a McDonald's All American, easily among the top ten HS players that were seniors that year.

ESPN just wrote last month their top 50 HS players of all time. They gave the nod to Alcindor.

It is hard to believe there was a better high school player than Lebron, but Alcindor is often mentioned.

[Archy McNally]

Yes, Jordan was never cut from his high school team. That is a popular legend. Jordan, as a sophomore, did not make the varsity team. He played the year on the jv team as many sophomores do. The "cut" legend implies that he was no longer a part of the team and that the coach was a fool for cutting him. I have an article about the coach where the coach talks about Jordan. He knew Jordan was a great prospect, but he had 6 or 7 seniors returning who had formed a good team. He thought Jordan needed more seasoning on the jv team. But he was not "cut."

I agree. If he was cut as a sophmore, he would be cut from the JV team. I would argue that he was not promoted to varsity as a sophmore which is typical. Varsity is usually for seniors and juniors, sophmores for JV. Obviously though, you would think somebody like Jordan would have been promoted as a sophmore.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I agree. If he was cut as a sophmore, he would be cut from the JV team. I would argue that he was not promoted to varsity as a sophmore which is typical. Varsity is usually for seniors and juniors, sophmores for JV. Obviously though, you would think somebody like Jordan would have been promoted as a sophmore.

I don't know for certain, but I believe M. Jordan was cut from the varsity when he was a freshman and he played varsity thereafter.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I don't know for certain, but I believe M. Jordan was cut from the varsity when he was a freshman and he played varsity thereafter.

Nope, I was wrong.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

He was a skinny 5-11 as a sophomore. Then he grew and worked on his game to make the team as a junior.

[combes]

Nope, I was wrong.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_bio.html

He was a skinny 5-11 as a sophomore. Then he grew and worked on his game to make the team as a junior.

Here is the story on Jordan from his high school coach, a very successful coach named Clifton "Pop" Herring. The semantics of the word "cut" is what is being argued here. It makes a better story to have Jordan rise from the ashes of being cut from his high school team (implying that he was no longer a member of the team and the coach must have been an idiot) and the truth. Read this article if you are interested in facts.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com...mp;slug=2728054

[Band Legend]

I guess I'm just getting curious, and a little annoyed, about this topic....

I found this list of non- Hall players, with a score calculating the chances of them getting in:

Georege is #22, for one thing-- a joke. I liked Chet Walker and Jeff Hornacek, but give me a break! Ron Harper could not even wipe George's jock strap.

2nd, I was shocked to realize guys like Haywood, Gilmore, and Dennis Johnson are not even in the Hall.

Hey Doc, I'm sure you probably loved the ABA Pacers, and I realize that McGinnis was in his heyday at that point in time, but my favorite pro basketball team of all time was the late 70's Sixers with Doctor J, George McGinnis, Bobby Jones, Steve Mix, and my all time favorite pro, Caldwell Jones. It is true that George and Julius were probably too dynamic to be on one team: there is only one ball to go around, after all, and both those dudes probably should have had it most of the time. I think Billy Cunningham finished his career with the Sixers around this time. What an awesome amount of talent on one team! It's hard to believe that I had to stay up late as a kid to watch the playoffs on tape delay.

[brianstl]

Here is the story on Jordan from his high school coach, a very successful coach named Clifton "Pop" Herring. The semantics of the word "cut" is what is being argued here. It makes a better story to have Jordan rise from the ashes of being cut from his high school team (implying that he was no longer a member of the team and the coach must have been an idiot) and the truth. Read this article if you are interested in facts.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com...mp;slug=2728054

Combes you are right IMO. He wasn't cut like most people tend to believe. He just didn't make the varsity team as a sophomore. When you get cut you are not playing for any of your schools teams. The cut story made a great commercial for Nike and that is why it was used.

[thetorch]

Now this is good message board discussion! Torch, you must be quite a historian of the game.

Sadly i wasn't alive to see it. My father and grandfather had season tickets to the Spirits and together missed a handful of games while they were here. Of course I've watched all the footage I can on ESPN classic. Loose Balls is one of my favorite sports books of all time. I read that when I was 10 or 11 and still revisit it from time to time.

[brianstl]

Sadly i wasn't alive to see it. My father and grandfather had season tickets to the Spirits and together missed a handful of games while they were here. Of course I've watched all the footage I can on ESPN classic. Loose Balls is one of my favorite sports books of all time. I read that when I was 10 or 11 and still revisit it from time to time.

Should be mandatory reading for any hoops fan.

[DoctorB]

Torch; thanks for that very reasonable response. I would still argue a little with the guys you are comparing to big George, (I realize you are not putting Stackhouse in his league, which would be a huge mistake) but your points are fair. George did slow down a bit as he got to 30, not quite sure why, though it is true they only had one ball to play with in Philly.

Band Legend, that was a very cool team; I always liked the 76ers of a slightly later period, with Moses, Mo Cheeks, and even old World B. Free (remember him?). Bobby Jones was my kind of player.

And Torch; I DO remember the old ABA teams, especially our hated rivals the Kentucky Colonels with Dan Issel and Louis Dampier popping shots from the bleachers. I saw lots of good ones play in Indy; Doctor J with the Nets; Gilmore; remember old Marvin Barnes??

As for really great teams that remain unknown: yes, the Pacers in the early 70s: featuring Slick Leonard; center Mel Daniels, forward Roger Brown (the Rajah, a sort of James Worthy, smooth as polished stone, going head to head with the great Willie Wise of Utah). Billy Keller! Bob Netolicky! and of course Doctor Dunk!! (if these names are not ringing any bells -- too bad, google 'em.)

It is good to reminisce about these great old players. There is one more oldie who should be mentioned, as maybe the funnest guy ever to watch play, anywhere and anytime: Pistol Pete. WOW!

[IndyDawg]

one other thought:

Butler has been cherry picking the Indiana All-stars for years, and it is one of the reasons for their pretty significant success over the past decade or so. This year, Butler gets shut out, while the Billikens score one of the All stars! (I believe Butler did have some interest in Jordan, btw.)

It would be great to see us reach the top 25, as Butler has done a few times recently.

trivia special: who was the greatest Indiana all-star of all time (IMHO)? and who was the most special physical specimen I ever saw on the Indiana All-stars (and until Oden a couple years back, would say was unrivalled of any high school player I ever saw)??

answer hint: I may be wrong, but I believe in the 2nd game (traditionally played against the arch rival Kentucky all-stars), this guy, who was also and all state tight end in football and probably could have played in the NFL, scored about 50 and tore down 30 boards!! probably still a record, I would guess.

2nd hint: this guy was left off the 50 greatest pro players list, which was unreal in my view.

This decade, Butler was ranked in '01, '03, '07,'08, and '09 and will open next season in the top 10. The 09 class had room for one post player which turned out to be the best center in the state Andrew Smith. He lead the state in rebounding by almost two rebounds a game. Due to a foot injury he missed about 1/3 of the season. Butler had no room for Jordan or any other guards,

[NH]

This decade, Butler was ranked in '01, '03, '07,'08, and '09 and will open next season in the top 10. The 09 class had room for one post player which turned out to be the best center in the state Andrew Smith. He lead the state in rebounding by almost two rebounds a game. Due to a foot injury he missed about 1/3 of the season. Butler had no room for Jordan or any other guards,

cool