billiken_roy Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 i saw hardaway at the shootout in his senior season in high school, and i think livingston is very comparable. i have seen livingston 6 times over the last two seasons and i dont think there is anything that hardaway can do that shaun cannot. shaun maybe could be a little more selfish if that is a weakness, but i have seen him take over games and score when he has too. he just seems to prefer to make his teamates look better more often. as to his shooting, i thought originally he was a weak shooter as well. but in the championship game at collinsville vs althoff with the defensive demon kevin lisch guarding him, he created his own shots and scored over 30 hitting from all over the floor with kevin playing as hard and as physical as he always does. livingston was just too much for him. defensively, kevin did onto him as well though. i believe if my memory serves me correctly kevin scored 27. but they were well earned as well, livingston didnt give him the chances. anyone that has seen kevin play would know if livingston or anyone would "give" up free looks all night, kevin would score 40+. last point, if his shot is all you are worried about, magic johnson was a horrible shooter when he first got to the nba. livingston reminds me of a more athletic magic johnson. btw, i have never compared anyone else to magic johnson before. kind of hallowed ground imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I give East Side credit for playing well but they had nothing to do with Vashon's fifteen missed free throws, at least five which were the front ends of one-and-ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p diddy Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 maybe if liddell had signed with mizzou, you would have been more impressed. you're getting to be a little obvious a.j. bad boyz for life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 > > maybe if liddell had signed with mizzou, you would have >been more impressed. you're getting to be a little obvious >a.j. > >bad boyz for life You gotta remember, AJ is the same guy who said Jimmy McKinney was better than Marque and was going to be better than Hughes. He also warned us that Reggie Bryant wasn't going to be as good as we expected. He was at least half right on that one. Reggie has been much better than I think any of us expected. AJ is a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_arete Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Jalensdad addressed my points adequately. The point is Liddell should have had the ball in his hands in the last minute. If Vashon converged on him, he would have dished it off to an open teammate. As I stated before, I don't question the skill or talent. I question the determination and heart. You should be demanding the ball in crunch time and not waiting on the wing for it. No, BRoy, I wasn't expecting a highlight film from Liddell. I was simply wishing he would take the reins at the end and determine East Side's fate. Liddell reminded me a little of McKinney in his unselfish and passive play during long stretches of the game. However, the difference is McKinney took it upon himself to demand the ball at crunch time. PDiddy, if it means anything to you, I think SLU has a steal in Polk. Unlike Liddell, Polk takes it upon himself to establish his will on the opponent. Can killer instinct be taught? Possibly, but I think a lot of it is innate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 it makes a big difference if polk has a coach that knows the game telling him what to do for four years, he sees each team leader take their turn stepping up and being "the man" and undoubtedly be told his senior year, "d, it's your turn now". liddell probably has never had a coach tell him anything. that is how little i respect that east side coach. i dont like floyd irons for the way he plays off the court, but i know he knows how to coach basketball on the court. dennis brooks is not a high school coach that is comparable to floyd irons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_arete Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 East Side's coach. I wasn't too impressed. With his athletes, why would he play a 2-3 zone all game? I could see if they played a zone like Boeheim or Cheney, but he has to know that another defense would better utilize their talents. You seem to imply that imposing your will on your opponent can be coached or taught. Interesting thought, but I disagree. As for Polk, he's been flinging jumpshots ever since his sophomore year. McKinney would defer to Polk most of the game and then demand the ball at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 and in his sophomore season he gave it up. but he doesnt anymore does he? liddell has never been taught to play the game. he is the walking example of a diamond in the rough if i ever saw it. you are questioning his toughness. i will say that evaluating a player's toughness and heart is the toughest attribute to evaluate but probably the most important attribute. you very well may be right about tommie. i saw him running an east side team that lost to a kevin lischless althoff team this past summer. no way that should have happened. still, i think his overall understanding of the game hasnt even been touched compared to someone like lisch or polk that have been expertly coached on the game thus far. once tommie has had a couple of years under brad and he is still shying away of the big moment, then i will agree with you, but for now, i dont claim to be that evaluator. i will tell you that sunday, coach soderberg basically said the exact same thing about the importance of judging a players mental and physical toughness and will to win. knowing that, he must think tommie has something more than sheer physical talent because in my estimation, he backed off more physically gifted players to go after liddell full steam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Latsch Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 >knowing that, he must think tommie has something more than >sheer physical talent because in my estimation, he backed >off more physically gifted players to go after liddell full >steam. Who did Soderberg back off to "go after Liddell full steam?" I'm not sure who you could be referring to. Ahearn maybe? (JUST KIDDING, PLEASE DON'T KILL ME) I don't think there are many players out there more "physically gifted" than Tommie Liddell. My 2 cents on Tommie: He doesn't have the killer instinct you'd want from a big-time player. He needs to be more aggressive and if that day comes, look out. With Tommie, that will mean the difference between a decent college player and the next Dwyane Wade. It's his choice. - Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 ....Shootout participant Peoria Central lost over the weekend 62-52, neutral court to Aurora West Il and IL signee Shaun Pruitt. I saw DeSmet/Vianney...for those Kalicak watchers. Kalicak had 6 points. Leonard was the "man" for DeSmet hitting many mid-range jumpers. If he bulks up, he will be a nice recruit in two years. You have to see a team or players play a few times or a bunch of times to draw an opinion. Vashon's win put them at 13th in USA Today...which means nothing except good area publicity nationally. That is the difference in a one point game. Otherwise they would have probably dropped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 aurora's engine is cerosoli. pruitt may have the inside, but he isnt the man. cerosoli had to have had a hell of a game for them to win. i would bet they rematch in about a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I meant to say DeSmet/SLUH the other night...and I mentioned Pruitt because to casual posters he is their most identifiable player so they knew which school...or the school Dameon Mason went to...etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalensdad2002 Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Those are all great points but Lisch is only 6'1. Livingston has at least 6 inches on him. He should be able to get off his shot against Kevin at will. There will be a correction at the next level. I also saw Hardaway against Vashon his senior year. The absolute best I have seen in person. He was not only doing things that Livingston is doing but he was also a dominant scorer. If you were at the game as I assume, I know you remember the no-look touch pass that his teammate could not handle and yet everyone at the game applauded just the thought of the pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalensdad2002 Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 >I give East Side credit for playing well but they had >nothing to do with Vashon's fifteen missed free throws, at >least five which were the front ends of one-and-ones. If we are talking free throws their was a huge disparity in the 4th quarter in Vashon favor. In addition Mark Howlett missed the 2 in the last minute of the game. Each team were hurt by ft shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalensdad2002 Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 That's an interesting point, East St Louis also gained due to the game. In the lastest Illinois AP Poll East Side has moved from 14 to 12th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalensdad2002 Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 I kind of hate I criticized Liddell's play. He did score 14 4th Quarter points. He was working, Vashon has talent to boot. He was harassed by everyone from Will Franklin to Dwayne Polk. I don't remember Liddell getting a break. If nothing else that what you call timeouts for. I don't believe Brooks called for more than 1. Liddell was no doubt wearing down so maybe he took a break offensively. Which is better than taking one defensively. Being from East St Louis I took the lost hard, I mean I was physically sick after the lost. I was disgusted with the game plan. I've always said that I can't wait for Liddell to get the coaching at the next level. If you were at the game you would have saw the disorganization with the coaching staff prior to the last play. Vashon had 2 men on Liddell and a third nearby. The Coaches had to know this one coming and yet no one screened for Tommie. It was a perfectly designed defensive play and a poorly designed offensive play. He scored 25 points and had 5 assists. He accounted for at least 35 of his teams 61 points. I expect more only because I have watched him since his 8th grade year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 oh i remember hardaway at the shootout and beyond. other than hughes, hardaway is probably the most naturally gifted college player i have ever seen in person. it is a shame the injury bug hit him in the nba. i am convinced he was on a path to the hall of fame till then. of course if we want to talk about highlight passes, that wrap around his head no look pass that shaun livingston had at the shootout is also one of the most incredible passes i have ever seen. i am still trying to get my arm to do what his did at full speed with 3 defenders on him in the blink of an eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Latsch Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I don't know that Price is any more gifted than Liddell. I know he has the rep as a great dunker, but in the games I've covered I haven't seen him dunk once. Liddell has had a couple nice dunks in games I have seen. I think Liddell and Price are probably pretty close in terms of athletic ability. Liddell might even have the edge because he might be a little taller and definitely plays taller than Price. - Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 nate, i have seen them both at least 10 times. liddell is a very good athlete, but price is world class. i have seen price make dunks that would make espn top 10 lists. if you watch, price will have his hand above the square on the backboard a lot during a game, and when he turns on the jets, he is as fast as anyone. there is no denying he is physically stronger than tommie as well. the difference between the two is that tommie shows up all the time. he may not agressively look to score all the time, but he is playing the game. price in the past has disappeared in big games. that said, he has definitely played much better this year at belleville west. the last two games i watched xaiver play were both complete games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 >I kind of hate I criticized Liddell's play. He did score 14 >4th Quarter points. He was working, Vashon has talent to >boot. He was harassed by everyone from Will Franklin to >Dwayne Polk. I don't remember Liddell getting a break. If >nothing else that what you call timeouts for. I don't >believe Brooks called for more than 1. Liddell was no doubt >wearing down so maybe he took a break offensively. Which is >better than taking one defensively. Being from East St Louis >I took the lost hard, I mean I was physically sick after the >lost. I was disgusted with the game plan. I've always said >that I can't wait for Liddell to get the coaching at the >next level. If you were at the game you would have saw the >disorganization with the coaching staff prior to the last >play. Vashon had 2 men on Liddell and a third nearby. The >Coaches had to know this one coming and yet no one screened >for Tommie. It was a perfectly designed defensive play and a >poorly designed offensive play. He scored 25 points and had >5 assists. He accounted for at least 35 of his teams 61 >points. I expect more only because I have watched him since >his 8th grade year. I was at the game and it was my first time seeing Tommie. At first glance, he appeared lackadaisical, but the more I saw of the kid, WOW! When they sent him out to guard Polk, that was impressive. The kid dug in and got after it. He appears effortless, but I think that's just his smooth style. I think he was giving a good effort and boy, the kid can do it all. AJ is just using this as another opportunity to bash a prized SLU recruit. I came away very excited about TL. He can do a little bit of everything on the floor and he's an exceptional athlete. I agree, ESL was poorly coached. They should have had Tommie bring the ball up against the press. That's the coach's fault, not TL's. He scored 25 points against the top rated team and he could've scored a hell of a lot more, if the team/coaching staff made more of an effort to get him the ball. The kid's a big time player who will thrive with Brad. Let's just hope he passes that test so we can see him soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Roy, I seriously doubt that we "backed off" recruiting Price. We simnply lost out to Purdue on this one. Saying we stopped recruiting him because of Liddell seems as disengenuous as the Mizzou claims that they didn't recruit Larry Hughes because of academics. I will offer this, if you want to stick by the claim that we chose Tommy over Xavier or that we didn't want Xavier then you have to be ready to criticize Brad if Tommie doesn't qualify. I have no idea what Xavier's academic standing is but if he qualifies and Tommie doesn't and we had a choice between the two there is only one man to blame...Brad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 the conversations i have had with people tell me that the billiken coaches did decide last spring to go hard after tommie liddell vs price. at that time, price was no where close to choosing purdue and we were as close to him as anyone else. i agree completely with your statements about blame. i have also been told by other area high school fans that price has not qualified as of yet either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalensdad2002 Posted February 26, 2004 Author Share Posted February 26, 2004 Touche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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