SLUDrew Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 If I understand your position correctly, you would give Brad a contract in perpetuity and focus your criticism towards the Univeristy and more particularly the Athletic Department until the budget is improved. Does that sound about right? In other words, you have seen enough in Brad to know without a doubt that our mediocrity has nothing to do with him. And you know that there is no way SLU could hire another Coach that could at all improve upon what Brad has done until more money is thrown at the issue. So at what point will have SLU done enough and you will finally be able to lay some blame at Brad's feet? Brad himself has said that a new arena will put him much more on par with the programs we are competing against. Well, 2007 recruits would play 3 years there. 2008 recruits would play 4 years there. He hasn't exactly been able to sell it yet though has he? SLU has created some pretty nice virtual tours of the new facility, which would certainly be impressive to me if I were a recruit. It seems to me the new arena would be of particular interest to local recruits as they would the media story in town when the arena opens and for some time thereafter. I have seen your budget stats and yes we cuold improve in that area, but there are coaches with far less doing far more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I'm not Roy... But in my book, no one gets a contract in perpetuity unless you're an established icon like Wooden, Dean Smith, Pitino, Knight, Olson and guys in that area. Cutting Brad, based on performance right now, is illogical. His win totals have gone up. That being the only "fact" --- I don't know what you'd base your decision on but it would be purely subjective. You guys seem to want to put a roof on this house and much like the arena, we are still in the excavation of the foundation work plan. Sadly, in today's 10 second sound bite world of immediacy, most do believe Rome was built in a day. I'm in the camp that says we give Brad through this year. If he comes through in November, extend him. If not, see what happens on the floor. I don't believe next year's team will improve based on keeping the same roster. Again, I'm not Roy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUDrew Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 Taj, before this last season "NCAA our bust" was the rallying cry of most on this board. Yet, here we sit without even an NIT bid and I am hearing "give him one more year." When does it end? Let's say Brad lands zero studs from the '08 class (I am sorry as good as they are Femi John and Kramer Soderberg would not qualify as a stud class) the team wins 18-20 games, but we are again left without a postseason bid. At what point do we concede that the foundation of Rome was laid but we can't seem to get the buldings built? Maybe all the materials are in place. We just need to switch architects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 absolutely not. i wouldnt give the coach anything at this time, however i wouldnt stand for the coach being fired until the program makes a real advancement across the board to resemble an actual top 50 program budget, staffing, recruiting, and facilities wise. at the point that all of the above actually resemble a top 50 program, and the team is still not approaching top 50, i have no problem with questioning a coaching change. while i am not enamoured with coach soderberg, the fact we have "started over 4 times in 15 years is more of a concern to me. a coach change without complete program improvements is an insult to the fandom and will only be a groundhog day repeat in approximately 5 years again. that is what i want to stop. and imo judging by the superior job romar has done at washington tells me that slu is incapable of sustained success (for example they might have a run every few years and get to the tourney 4 times in 15 years under 4 different coaches) but they will also have the same frequency of sub 500 seasons and disappointment. i am tired of the roller coaster and a new coach isnt going to stop that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 i have been saying since the disasterous bryant frericks season that brad should be allowed to see lisch and liddell through their careers. he got them to come, if he blows that then he deserves to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 "Sadly, in today's 10 second sound bite world of immediacy, most do believe Rome was built in a day." I don't disagree with this, but if the rest of the NCAA world is preparing or attempting to obtain instant success while we are not, it's gonna be tough to keep pace, much less catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I don't understand that because this is about SLU and not about Sodie. KL and TL are players to build on or at least assist a possible new coach in starting something. If Sodie can't do something with them in 3 years, I would like to see someone else try (assuming they don't transfer). Assuming the worst case scenario, why wait for Sodie to sink the ship before bringing anyone new in? that's certainly a recipe for starting over, a la Romar. But if a new coach were to come in, why not give that coach a chance with TL and KL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLouBlue Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 That is a tough situation you bring up. Let's say that we do not land Brandenberg, Suggs, Thompson, Moore, and John--in other words most of the top '08 players. Throw in also missing on a prep school Powell. Say only get 1 or 2 marginal LOIs in Nov. Then with our '07-08 season, the team wins 20 games and we see very good things from the players on the roster. Maybe All-conference for KL & TL and maybe throw in a All newcomer team for one of our JUCOs as yet unnamed. Maybe with those 20 wins, say it is also a 3rd place finish and just missing NCAA but make the NIT. What happens in this case? Would you give Brad KL & TL senior year to coach them? Since it was a big time miss on the '08 class but some success on the court, what do you decide. I think in this case we simply trust our AD at making the right decision. I wouldn't be against finding a new coach since recruiting is such a major part of being head coach. I also would understand allowing Brad to continue since 20 wins and a 3rd place finish are very good as well. If retaining, I would probably hope CL would force out an assistant coach and have Brad bring in a stronger recruiting assistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 moytoy, i agree it will tough to do. that said, how is it accomplished without cheating or without any kind of significant infusion in the non coaching aspects of the athletic dept? again, i am convinced that a coach will not make a long term difference. they might be able to peak a team for a run, but it wont last at the level we are at now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 sinking the ship? over the last three seasons, we have went from 9 wins, to 16 wins to 20 wins. that doesnt sound like a sinking ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 At this point Roy, my hope is that SLU makes a good run into the NCAA's and that sparks the athletic dept to change how they do business. I don't see the athletic dept stepping up any time soon and that's why i lean toward the side that thinks Sodie won't be able to cut it. As you have pointed out, you get what you pay for with Sodie. Since i don't see the athletic dept changing, i would take one NCAA in five years, who knows, maybe we'll have a George Mason type run and that wakes the AD up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Unproven D-1 head coaches like Brad should have approx $200k buyouts or so....... so that extensions don't matter as much. I have no idea what Brad has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I probably stated it poorly, i guess i should have stated, why let Sodie waste KL and TL? the sunk ship would have been the talent wasted...poor analogy. by the way, as i recall, everyone wants to throw the 9 win season out of the record books when it comes to using it against Sodie, so it seems unfair to use it for him. As i can tell, he has seaons of 15, 16,[9], 16, and 19/20 wins. For 4 years he treaded water and this year he upticked to 19/20 wins. However, no NCAA and no NIT. At the end of the day, the ship is not sinking and i did not mean that it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I think the people that said NCAA or bust are the people that wanted him out regardless, hell there were some that wanted him out whether we made the NCAA's or not this year, based upon their perceptions of incoming recruiting classes. I said then wait until the end of the year and evaluate, which is what I think most people said. There are exceptions, a few that want him gone regardless and 1 that I can think of that say keep him period. I don't think like Roy that our athletic department has to get every duck lined up to expect success, but I do feel that we have to have improvement in the tools our coach has to recruit. I think this arena is huge and is a major step, which imo will require a step up in success. I would keep him this year and the reevaluate. Under no circumstance would I extend him now. I don't have absolutes that say do this or your fired, or do this and we extend. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 what we need is more boosters to take the stance they want to see the overall athletic dept improved/expanded. not take the shortcut "fire the coach and start over" approach. again, the instances of a former top assistant becoming a big time consistent winner isnt the norm. more turn into quin, or stan heath, or the slu lorenzo romar, or the brian gregory, then the tom crean or jaimie dixon (pitt) or chris lowery (siu). btw, both dixon and lowery are promotions from within same as mark few at gonzaga. hmmm, promotions from within, they didnt "start over". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 The athletic dept is not the problem - Brad has to be above avg. Heck if it was easy to do the job then all of us would be doing it. Nothing wrong with asking him to excel above his peers - he is getting sufficient support from the University. Now he has to deliver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 moytoy said, "by the way, as i recall, everyone wants to throw the 9 win season out of the record books when it comes to using it against Sodie, so it seems unfair to use it for him. As i can tell, he has seaons of 15, 16,<9>, 16, and 19/20 wins. For 4 years he treaded water and this year he upticked to 19/20 wins. However, no NCAA and no NIT. At the end of the day, the ship is not sinking and i did not mean that it was." ok, throw the 9 win season out or assume that a healthy bryant and frericks would have brought us another 6 or 7 wins. i.e. treadwater till this season's uptick. compare that to grawer's consecutive seasons win totals of: 5,12,13,18,25,14,27,21,19,5 roller coaster!! spoon: 12,26,23,16,11,22,15 bigger hills on his ride than grawer! romar: 19,17,15 all downhill if anything our ride has been overall more positive under soderberg than the other three previous coaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 LOL. Roy, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree (and we're not that far apart). I just don't think we will necessarily start over if we bring someone new in and just to keep it out there, i'm not necessarily for firing Sodie. I'm in favor of CL examining the situation and deciding whether a new coach would be a step up from Sodie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 moytoy said, "I'm in favor of CL examining the situation and deciding whether a new coach would be a step up from Sodie." my guess is that cheryl levick indeed does that constantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 "if anything our ride has been overall more positive under soderberg than the other three previous coaches." I disagree. Personally, i want in the NCAA's. as a side note, I believe we should only compare sodie's first 3 years to Romar's tenure at SLU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I think he is now with the arena, it could be better, but I don't think there are many mid-majors that get better now. Before the arena, I think the support was not good, but like I said, I think the arena is huge, and Brad has to make a step up. I'd like to see our recruiting budget in the top 100 if it isn't already and a better TV package. I think to be consistent top 50, you have to have all those things, but to make a step up and be consistently from 30 to 70 I think we should be able to do that now. I do hope Chery'l gets a better TV package, I would bet that she will. With the arena now in hand ... I would expect years like this year that just finished to be a bad year. My expectations if nothing changes in support from the Athletic department from here on out are NCAA 2 or 3 out of 5. NIT in most non NCAA years. SLU has alot to offer and Brad needs to use the plusses to his advantage. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Not just an annual or mid-year review type of thing. I think at this point she should conduct an extensive, but informal review of her options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTISODERBERGGARY Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 The bottom line is this. We can sit here on this bulletin board and hash it out all we want, but the bottom line at the end of the day Father Biondi still has the final say. He preaches academics over athletics this is true. Father Biondi doesn't care about the athletic programs. The one I feel sorry for is Cheryl Levick What can an athletic director do when her hands are tied. You can only have so many car washes and bake sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUDrew Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 Have you ever noticed that when recruiting comes up he constantly refers to the things working against him as opposed to the things working for him? He always mentions what SLU doesn't have that other schools do (TV, arena, NCAA appearances). I don't think that Brad himself believes he can land big recruits. All programs start somewhere. Sometime way back when someone had to recruit players to little known programs so they could become big-time programs. We have to get a Coach who can get beyond thinking of SLU as the "little program that could" and can see the great promise this program has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I don't know that he feels that way. I've never heard him talk to a prospective recruit. I would venture to guess you are wrong though and Brad strongly believes in SLU ... whether he is good at portraying those strengths to a player he is recruiting is another thing. My impression of Brad is if he has time to get to know you and your family over a long period of time, he has a great chance of landing you. If he doesn't ... he hasn't seemed to have much success. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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