brief history for missouri alum

[kevinfootes]

Over the years there have been a handful of mizzou fans who have come on this board and talked a lot of trash. Some were big-time a-holes. That's why a few people on here have problems with mizzou.

Keep some things in mind about the group of billikenboard bullies that used to pretty much run this board:

1. It's always the refs' fault when SLU loses

2. All local media has it in for SLU 100% of the time

3. The bullies dislike mizzou and will accuse anybody who disagrees with them on any topic a "mizzou fan". Kind of like the witch trial in Holy Grail.

Also keep in mind that most of these bullies were too afraid to directly confront any mizzou posters on here. They left that sort of thing to people like me. They would just accuse SLU fans who disagreed with them of being mizzou fans. These are the same guys who licked the boots of Cincy fans who came on here and talked trash all of the time.

Anyway, I'm willing to welcome anybody who wants SLU to win to post on this board. The more, the merrier. I'm smart enough to realize that a handful of jerks on the internet don't represent anything more than what they are, a handful of jerks.

BTW, mizzou should stop being chickens and schedule games with SLU!

[MissouriAlum]

From being a long-time off-and-on reader of the board, I'd agree with the thought that the mere mention of MU sets people off on here. I was pretty sure I'd be seen for my "true colors" if I didn't admit it immediately any way. I wouldn't have posted what I did if I didn't want to discuss SLU basketball and get to what I see as the core issues as to why I was turned off by it.

Like I said, ultimately, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't like the Billikens so that was why I posted. I was hoping to draw out some of the more intelligent SLU and dare I say even MU posters that might linger here and I think that happened kind of. It was a risk, but hopefully it opened some eyes at least. I've seen too many people (a lot recently) post good thoughts and be nit-picked by the "bullies" when they were obviously making good contributions to the board.

It might be a pipe dream, but now that MU has a coach with integrity, I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be some mutual respect when it is deserved. Honestly, from what I've read on here, I feel like the majority of SLU fans on here would say they hold SLU athletics in general up to a higher standard (academics, sportsmanship, philosophy, integrity, etc) so I don't get why comparing themselves to the most obnoxious fans from MU or any team and then repeating the same behaviour as these fans serves that purpose. If I'm off base on this, I'm sure someone will tell me.

[Billikan]

The history between the Bills and MU is one that is complicated. Years ago I was at a Tip Off club meeting at the old arena on the day of a game that the Bills were playing Missouri. The advertised guest speaker was Norm and a lot of people paid to attend. After making everyone wait an hour he came in and said that he saw no reason for Missouri to play St. Louis and he would never do anything to help the Bills in any way because it was not in his best interest. he was there about 3 minutes and walked out. As you might imagine everyone was unbelievably pissed. MU had a better team but that night David Burns and the Bills almost pulled out the upset losing on the last play of the game. Anyone who was at that meeting hated MU and Norm for years for the insulting way he treated the Bills fans. Over the years a lot of MU fans had the same condescending attitude and the Bills fans became more and more alienated.

Once Norm left and we played again with Quinn, a real rivalry seemed to be in the making but the Bills played too well and Quinn and MU backed out of the commitment he had made to have an onging series with SLU. That angered the Bills fans once again. Then Quinn had all of his so called nationally acclaimed recruiting classes and the MU fans became even more arrogant. But a funny thing happened--just recruiting HS all americans and big time recruits did not guarantee success and Quinn was perceived as a person who cheated his way to the top of the recruiting heap. As his teams played poorly the MU fans became nervous and I had more than one say to me that they needed someone like Brad to give some discipline to their team.

Ultimately, Quinn could not survive because he lost games, not because he cheated, and MU went on a search for a new coach. I have several buddies that are big MU boosters and as soon as the job came open I said that the best guy they could hire would be Mike Anderson because I had respect for him and the job he did at UAB. At least two of those guys said it would never happen but he was hired and I think that will be good for MU even though they are struggling in the BIG 12 this year.

The whole dispute comes down to a matter of respect. I respect Anderson and the school at Missouri. I do not like the fact that a lot of my tax dollars went to build a big arena for the BB team while MU fans were coming on this site and predicting that the Bills would never build an arena but that is life. However, on the other side, I have seldom seen any respect whatsoever for the Bills or SLU coming from MU fans. They come on this board and trash the Bills and the school and our fans overreact as you might expect and rip them and MU. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the local media seem to all be MU grads or at least very close to MU. It was amazing to see how long it was before Quinn was criticized in the local press even though most of us knew very early on that Ricky Clemmons could not have completed 24 hours of credit in a summer. When the team started losing then the scribes jumped on Quinn. With the Bills, even if we are winning, there never seems to be any respect.

It would be great if the two schools could develop a mutual respect and play every year but I doubt it will ever happen.

[MissouriAlum]

I've either heard or witnessed what you've said. There is no argument for most of it and I understand it's complicated. I just feel like there are a lot of St. Louisans that graduated from MU or have some other connection that would support SLU if it came down to it. Spoon won a lot of people over so that at least shows it's possible. I think the MU folks not from St. Louis probably won't ever, but there are a lot of things about St. Louis that people that aren't from there will not understand.

For example, I never thought I would root for Illinois in anything, but I enjoyed watching their team from 2 years ago so much that I watched every one of their games that I could because they played the game the right way (I think they were the most amazing passing team I've seen when they were on which was most of the time) and they seemed really classy to me. I actually almost wore orange to the Bragging Rights game last year (mainly in protest I'll admit), but decided against it and I think I generally hope they win everytime that they play (except for one game per year). I think that's what I'm talking about. It won't happen with everyone, but it's possible at least for some if not most.

I gave my thoughts on the media below. If no one is happy with them, then it's something else. My impression was that Ramsey and Cusamano have been more constant ambassadors for SLU than anyone else for MU (and it's not even close in my opinion). In a very general way, the rest of the media probably cater to MU more, but MU gets more year-round coverage naturally with football so it probably will always seem like they get more coverage. I never thought that UoI gets very much coverage and they've been by far the best of the 3 teams in basketball for awhile now.

No matter what I say, I won't be popular if all I talk about is MU. I will be glad to give an opinion if directly asked, but I'm generally going to try and abstain from it unless it's necessary or asked (I'm going to invoke Griffster rules on this one ). I think I've made my point (and at least given an idea that not all MU fans are totally unbearable).

I really do appreciate the feedback everyone has given (well almost everyone). I'm going to crawl back into the hole where I came from for awhile.

[ACE]

There have been more fans of Mizzou visit this board than fans of any other program. For a group of fans who typically say they don't care about us, they sure come over here a lot to seek our approval. And the overwhelming majority of them have been a-holes - joey fluegel, cheesycow, vanillagorilla, etc. I don't remember kevin confronting the Mizzou whack jobs, but this isn't the first time he's been delusional. A lot of us did and they got what they deserved. I would expect the same treatment if SLU fans would visit a Mizzou board to stir it up. You seem like a reasonable fella and you will be treated fine, just like MUTGR has over the years. I didn't grow up in this area and when I moved here, I could never understand the level of arrogance conveyed by Mizzou fans I ran across. I never remembered Mizzou being regarded as a national power in basketball or football when I was growing up, yet that's how they regarded their program. It's a mediocre BCS program. Nothing wrong with rooting for your team, but don't act like it's more than it is. They reminded me of Alabama football fans, only without the history of success. I'm not saying SLU is a powerhouse program either, but I think the overwhelming majority of SLU fans understand that. When SLU played Mizzou a few years ago three years in a row, the condescending way they treated us was pathetic. We beat them one game and took them to the wire in the other two, yet most of their fans act like we don't belong on the same court with them. After those three games, they became too scared to play us again. The topic of Mizzou usually doesn't come up much here unless one of their fans brings it up.

[NashvilleBilliken]

This is the Billiken board. Talk about the Billikens. There is absolutely no reason to ever bring Mizzou into a conversation. We don't play them. We don't play in their conference. We don't play the same teams. Rarely, if ever, do we recruit the same players. There is really no reason they should be brought up on this board short of a national basketball story involving the program.

Just come here to talk about the Billikens and nobody will have to worry about being "bullied".

[cheeseman]

In regards to the media situation in St. Louis and MU and SLU. The only pro SLU people are Rammer and Frank - period. Everybody else on 590 has historically ignored SLU at best or made prejudicial statements. How do you think Tim McKearn got his nick name Tiger Tim - I labeled him that one day on this board and the next day, Tiger Tim was ranting about that on his show. I am sorry the truth hurt him. When Norm was around, Slaten was all roses about MU and weeds about SLU. Then Norm left and he was fine with Quinn at first but as soon as Quinn would not give his son a schollie then he turned as he did on SLU and SIUC for the same reason. Slaten will have trouble with supporting Anderson since he is black but that is a well documented issue he has. Some of the announcers on 590 have toned it down some since the station is the Voice of the Billikens now. The Post always gives MU top billing just read the paper for a couple of weeks and you will see it very easily. 550 - they have no use for SLU or even college BB at all. At least they will acknowledge that MU and Illini are in BCS conferences once in a while. The other thing that has finally slowed some up is that we are actually building the arena and many thought that would never happen. Now I am not complaining just stating the objective observations.

[cheesycow]

I resent being called an a-hole, as, unlike some of my foes on billikens.com, i have never resorted to personal attacks as a means to get a point across with the fine folks here at billikens.com.

I've met a few posters, even had a decent chat with Billikenroy (my archnemesis!) at a bills game I attended with Steve.

What it boils down to for me, is spirited outrageous MU-SLU debate only happens in one place: here. Tigerboard is too big and obnoxious for it, STLtoday is twice as obnoxious, and this is clearly the premier SLU discussion site on the web.

I spent 4 years having lively MU-SLU debates every day at lunch with Steve (slusignguy for newer posters) and I enjoy my time spent here having silly debates about things that in the long run are inconsequential.

If you really do think i'm an A-hole, and this goes for anyone, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself how seriously you're taking the internet.

[MUTGR]

the post-dispatch has had certain elements that have been out to get Mizzou for years. They sent investigative reporters to Detroit to dig up dirt on Norm in the late 80's (ultimately leading to the NCAA investigation and probation), and did the same to Quin a few years ago (same result). Miklasz has written on more than one occasion that Mizzou fans are "yahoos". He admitted in his blog that he had his tires slashed at one MU game many years ago. In other words, he considers all Missouri fans to be rednecks (an impression expressed often on this board, too). The post-dispatch published more than one editorial railing against public funding for MU's new basketball arena, while being a proponent of public funding for the new Busch stadium (acknowledging in the fine print that the post's parent, Pulitzer, was a minority owner of the Cardinals). Although he was an antler, Gordon has gone out of his way over the years to criticise the program, perhaps to show his objectivity. Norm was not particularly well received by the St. Louis media for a number of reasons, including: (1) he was arrogant; (2) he was from rural Missouri; (3) he didn't kiss their asses; and (3) he didn't care what they thought about him. St. Louis media likes country boys, but only the soft cuddly kind, like Spoon. Norm was not soft and cuddly.

There was much love from the local press for Spoonhour, Romar and even Grawer for a time. I think Soderburg was initially well -received, but it seems the tide is turning by some on Soderburg.

Mike Anderson was a popular hire with the local press (I'll give you three guesses why), so he will get an extended honeymoon. What really galls me is how the local media jumped on the Illini bandwagon when they had their great run a couple of years ago. Of course, everybody loves the little MVC giant killers. They are the toast of the town right now, particularly SIUC, plus they spread so much advertising money around the St. Louis media they buy good press.

[courtside]

Go to any other state in the country. The state school will always get more coverage and be first in coverage except in the years when the smaller, city, private school is much better and still it will be pretty similar in even those years. That is how it is and always will be.

The size of the fan base's just aren't comparable. SLU fans should just accept it because it is never going to change. It's like this everywhere else too.

[MUTGR]

Well, thanks at least for calling me reasonable. I never have understood the vitriol that some billikens' feel towards MU. I was not aware of the meeting with Norm. I suppose that if I was a billikens' fan that attended that meeting, I might feel some hatred toward Norm and Mizzou.

From a Missouri fan who started rooting for Mizzou in the late 70's as a kid, through my own graduation in '91, and who has followed them very closely since then, I was never aware of an issue of Missouri playing or not playing SLU until the early 90's, when I was looking at a car at Lou Fusz Toyota and Anthony Jones was the salesmen. By the way, that is not a slam at Anthony Jones or SLU. It's just the truth. Being a basketball fan, We struck up a conversation and he told me that Missouri had always been afraid to play SLU. I told him that it was the first time I had ever heard of that being an issue.

You can denigrate the quality of MU's program under Norm, but someone posted these statistics on Tigerboard. They might explain why some of us are big Norm fans:

1. 17 NCAAs in 32 seasons

2. You forget that he had to build the program from nothing. The team won 7 games combined in the two years prior to his arrival and played in the rec center.

3. The 8 conference titles came between 1979 and 1994, over 15 seasons. No other conference team (including powers like Kansas, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State) won near that many in that stretch.

4. Yes, he lost to some lower-seeded teams and never made a final four, but he also went to two Elite Eights, and to three other Sweet 16s. That's not failing to have tournament success.

5. He also won 6 Big 8 conference tournaments.

6. He recruited and coached 8 Big 8 Players of the Year.

7. In the span from 1979-1995, the 16 seasons that comprise golden era of his tenure, we averaged 23-9. That's an average. The winning percentage over those 16 seasons was .718. We have not had a single season with that high of a winning percentage since 1994.

8. To get an idea of his accomplishments, consider that we have not finished higher than 5th in the league since he left.

9. Consider that we have not had a top-level team in 13 seasons, while between 1979 and 1995, Norm coached 6 teams that won more than 25 games.

Now, of course he never won a NC or made a final four. He had way too many first round defeats, and landed MU on probation. When you consider that his succes occurred roughtly at the same time our football program became a joke,perhaps you can understand why some of us apprciate what Norm accomplished. I would suggest that if SLU had a coach that acomplished what Norm did over that same period, there would be a statue outside of a new arena named after him. Knowing Biondi, it would probably be a nude statue, unfortunately.

And of course, the golden boy from the golden program couldn't come close to what Norm achieved and also placed us on probation. We can at least hope about our future again with Mike Anderson. I don't think too many MU fans are arrogant about our program right now.

Finally, I disagree that MU is usually only brought up by MU posters. That clearly was not the case for a long time. I read this board weekly, just to see what is going on. I almost never start a thread, but only respond when MU is the subject. It's usually a SLU poster that has somethign bad to say about MU. I will admit lately, perhaps because of some respect for Mike Anderson, that hasn't been the case as much.

[SluSignGuy]

Long time no see, good to see you still around.

[MUTGR]

Thanks. I am secretly a closet Billikens fan. I have a law degree from SLU and my sister was a SLU graduate. In fact, she's in SLU's athletic hall of fame (she had all the talent and brains in the family). Heck, I'm even a Kirkwood grad like you. I like Soderburg and would like to see him succeed. Of course, I understand the frustration some have with him as well.

[cheesycow]

hear hear for kirkwood grads.

[Billikan]

Hear-Hear for SLU law school grads. I have a daughter and a son in law who graduated from SLU law school. One went to Indiana and one to SIUC for undergrad and both are now diehard Bills fans. We just need to make one convert at a time.

[ACE]

The Mizzou troll element has subsided in recent years. It's amazing what a few scandals and disappointing seasons has done. They don't come around as much, so it's not as big of an issue.

[kevinfootes]

What's interesting is that I actually went after some mizzou people who came over here talking trash, especially the gorilla. As I recall yo spent 99.9% of your time accusing anybody who disagreed with you of being a mizzou fan.

[kevinfootes]

>This is the Billiken board. Talk about the Billikens. There

>is absolutely no reason to ever bring Mizzou into a

>conversation. We don't play them. We don't play in their

>conference. We don't play the same teams. Rarely, if ever,

>do we recruit the same players. There is really no reason

>they should be brought up on this board short of a national

>basketball story involving the program.

>

>Just come here to talk about the Billikens and nobody will

>have to worry about being "bullied".

As long as you do what nashville says you won't be bullied. Last time I checked nashville wasn't a moderator.

[kevinfootes]

XU doesn't get the same run as Ohio St., DePaul doesn't get the same run as Notre Dame and the Big 10 schools, etc.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I'm not, nor am I a Mizzou basher. As far as I'm concerned the university doesn't exist short of the 3 games we played them a few years back.

The point is there is absolutely no reason to ever bring Mizzou into a conversation on the Billiken board. We have nothing in common with them other than they both reside in the same state.

Furthermore, you're "bullying" is completely exaggerated. You don't get "bullied" unless you deserve it. Last I checked, our own moderator Thicks is a Mizzou fan. Nobody seems to give him a hard time...

[ACE]

kevin sure is going to great lengths to defend the honor of Mizzou fans and make sure they get a fair shake. He even started a thread about it.

[kevinfootes]

Please show me where I said anything good about mizzou?

[ACE]

Kevin was so busy making nice with Mizzou fans while lecturing SLU fans that I guess he missed this little gem from MUTGR, "the post-dispatch has had certain elements that have been out to get Mizzou for years."

Wow, I thought thinking the media was out to get us was a uniquely SLU thing?

SLU fans blaming the refs? I don't see that being an epidemic on this board, not even from the kool aid crew. You're just making up stuff again. If you want to talk about blaming refs, you should have heard the Mizzou football coach crying about it after one of their losses this year. His sour grapes whining was even mocked by many in the national media. Oh wait, maybe the media really is out to get them. hahaha!

[Tonka]

Pinkel even said the one loss he was considering a win and telling his team it was a win.

[kevinfootes]

I did miss that. You are correct. I don't know what you're trying to conclude from that, but I never said any of those things were unique to SLU. They are simply characteristics of the board bullies. Since you are a charter member of the board bullies, I thought you might take that as a compliment. Also, I don't really see how that comment is anti-SLU. I could make the point to take it to the tigerboard, if that's what you mean.

Take it to the tigerboard!

There have been many officiating threads on here and dozens of complaints about the Post. If you can't admit that you're either extremely confused or just lying even more ... probably both.

I don't see how I was making nice with anybody from mizzou either, mentioning that several of their fans came on the board acting like complete jerks, kind of the way you act 99% of the time.

If we want to get into making nice with fans from other teams, I could write pages about the Cincy bootlicking. I could even mention your great love for the illini. You've made too many posts to count talking about how wonderful they are. I really get sick of people like you writing love notes about cheating state univeristites like mizzou and illinois that are too chicken to play SLU.

It's fun to watch bullies like you put when they don't get their way.