Not A "Typical" College Program ...

[Taj79]

... seems to be Saint Louis Univeristy's calling card. And why is that? Our foreign imports are not "typical." Our JUCO stud transfers are not "typical." Our recruiting gems are not "typical." When our one superstar player up and leaves early, we cannot recover as a "typical" program might. We don't even get residual benefits of that superstar .. i.e. his play rubs off on those left over and we don't drop that far. Again, not "typical."

Here is another fear .... a season like the one we are having now will not result in "typical" results. This is a disasterous season and I believe no one will argue the counter to that. I don't know what the average recuperation time is for a "typical" down season but for arguments' sake, let's say two years. You have a bad season, you regroup, maybe suffer another bad but improved year, and then you come back better. Our bad seasons seem to result in shock waves that are felt for three or four years. Again, we are not "typical."

If you believe as someone wrote that we have two D1 prospoects currently on the roster in Ian and Danny, and we are depending immensely on the L&L boys and two, yet-unnamed-bargain-basement-late-signing spring recruits ... well, paint oyur own picture for next year.

I am not happy with what seems to be Soderberg's coaching reaction ... to scream, scream and scream some more. If they ain't getting it, toss it in .... play the youth and blame it on inexperience and on-the-job training. Better to do it that way then, say, lose your hair ... oops, never mind.

[guest]

What a terrific post, Taj. My man! I'm glad someone is also seeing the light (or lack thereof) that this program is struggling. Look at the amazing success our Jesuit friends up in Chestunt Hill are having this year. We can be just as good, if not better than BC. We should be able to bring kids(preferably good American talent) in to play basketball. It's a fact that Soderberg sweats more than Pete Gillen out there and it's because he's on the burner right now from the fans(who could care less), the administration(who could care less) and the students(who probably could care less). One more year for Soderberg. Then we bring a "name" in from somewhere else. No more of these NAIA/Assistant Coach under a now retired Dick Bennett guys who do such a "great job recruiting." Al Skinner is not a great college basketball coach, but his formula for success isn't shooting Lou Fusz of Boston commercials or watching Al Skinner, Jr. at BC Prep. It's hitting the road and creating a team full of winners and leaders. Go Eagles.

[slu72]

Billikenbobby do you happen to know how many top 100 recruits BC has. It is my guess maybe 1 or 2. Neither Smith or Dudley was highly recruited out of hs,yet they are the leaders on an undefeated team in the Nation's toughest conference.

[guest]

Buddy, who gives a rats ass about "Top 100 Recruits." Tom Lemming is a liar and for godssake, realize no top 100 recruit will EVER come to SLU, but can we at least get someone in the 101-200 range???? At least these fine young Eagles know how to pass, shoot, dribble, STEP UP, BE A LEADER. I hate BC in just about everything, but hey, I'll take a chance on that team going places next month. You can count on it. Go Eagles.

[billiken_roy]

funny you bring up wanting to be like bc and have a coach with the success of al skinner. you do know that skinner's first three seasons at bc he was 15-15, 6-21, and 11-19? if brad loses the rest of the games this season he will have a better overall record his first three seasons than al skinner had at b.c.

are you sure you are a saint louis university student? you think and write more like a saint louis unversity cafeteria worker.

[kshoe]

From sample CUSA schools:

SLU 91-92 5-23 93-94 26-6 (NCAA)

SLU 96-97 11-18 97-98 22-11 (NCAA)

SLU 98-99 15-16 99-00 19-14 (NCAA)

Depaul 01-02 9-19 03-04 21-9 (NCAA)

Marquette 00-01 15-14 01-02 26-5 02-03 23-5 (Final 4)

Louisville 00-01 12-19 02-03 24-6 (NCAA)

It can happen in 2 years, however, I don't know why you say when it happens to SLU it takes longer than others

[Billiken Rich]

must've been caught spitting in your food for you to hold them in such esteem.

[billiken_roy]

it's all about having 2-3 key players.

in your examples,

91-92 slu team was made up of mostly freshmen 93-94 were those freshmen grown up (claggett and highmark) plus waldman.

96-97 slu team had no hughes, the 97-98 team had hughes

98-99 didnt have hughes, the 99-2000 team had a take charge healthy justin love

the marquette example is pre-wade and then the two wade teams.

[kshoe]

are Lisch and Liddell those two players?

We all sure hope so.

[guest]

All that matters is here and now. Skinner is getting the job done which means better chances of landing kids for the future. Oh, excuse me for "writing like a cafeteria worker." I didn't think we've got professional grammar editors on the payroll.

[SShoe]

What is your deal? I know you personally and I used to think you were a decent Billiken fan. Now you're just spitting out endless nonsense, about things you obviously don't understand. Relax, wait until next year and we'll see if things begin to look better with L and L.

[Taj79]

Only time will tell but past history, outside of Hughes, has shown little production in that area.

[kshoe]

I don't understand.

Local recruits?

Guards?

Freshmen?

While Tommie will technically be a freshman I suspect this year away, playing top teams and playing on a team full of D1 talent will hav ehim more prepared for D1 than any other highschool recruit we've ever had.

As for KL, is it tougher to score against one college defender or three highschool defenders?

[Billiken Rich]

Danny Brown had a year of prep. I'd guess Hargrave is at least as tough as the Airforce prep folks.....

[kshoe]

and even more importantly though Tommie's competition level in practice and in games is significantly tougher than the Air Force Academy.

[billiken_roy]

booby, the point is you want soderberg to have the billikens at a level of boston college and al skinner, yet it took al skinner 7+ years to get to this point. if the boston college people had acted towards skinner like you are acting towards coach soderberg, he would have been fired in his third year then as well. if you cant see that, you got a real problem.

[StLouBlue]

I agree with you that SLU is not a "typical" program. I think part of it is just a stablity issue. Since around the time Charlie S tookover after Grawer was fired SLU has had or will have next year: 4 conferences, 4 head coaches(counting Grawer), at least 4 AD's(I can't remember them all)and 3 different home courts(and we all want a 4th).

We are seeing how much a coaching change can affect recruiting, currently living through 2 subpar recruiting years--just think at SLU every 4 years we go through this again.

About the only thing that has remained the same for the last 15 years is each of our coach's focus on defense first with a guard oriented offense. This year our guard play is really down, our inside players are about the same as we have had for the last 15 years--okay but not difference makers. I expect an upgrade next year with L & L, but not that much since we are losing our only two scorers also.

That being said I don't have high hopes for next year either, but being in the A-10 should help us. The A-10 is really down this year after having a great year last year--I don't know what to expect for our first year there except it won't be as tough as CUSA in general.

I also agree that I don't think Brad has responded very well to the problems this season. I don't understand DC not getting any minutes in most games, I don't understand not getting a promising shooter like Meyers more minutes when this team desparately needs another outside threat. I don't know VN's role at all. I could go on, but I would just end up repeating everything said in earlier posts on this board. I wonder if our new AD will force changes in our assistant coaches after this season as kind of a response to this bad season? I don't see Brad as the type to make these changes himself.

[Sheltiedave]

Of course Brad has not responded well to a losing season- this is the first one he has EVER gone through, as a player or a coach! Read the gist of the posts on this forum for this long season, and you should realize we all hate the way this has turned out. Does that mean we should hate the players, the coach, or the school for the lack of quality? I think not.

Failure is compounded when you also fail to gain any insight from a bad situation. Success starts when you learn how to turn a bad situation into an opportunity to succeed, and then do it. Brad has ridden the team mercilessly this season, and I'm sure it has been a thoroughly miserable nightmare - for players and coaches. But the key is one, two, and three years down the road. Has this year strengthened the players, has it made them realize how gut wrenching the effort is to improve, and has it made them better for the experience?

Seasons like this make champions out of a bad, bad, bad team, and it also makes good people out of the players who do not quit. I hope all the coaches are providing conseling and guidance , so we can build on the positive individual gains and successes and set the stage for team success in the coming years.

In sports, you need to have this perspective if you don't desire to be a loser as a coach. As a Billikens fan, if you aren't able to wrap you mind around this and digest it comfortably, then maybe you should start rooting for Syracuse or some other winning stud muffin program, because SLU will never be able to satisfy unreasonable goals.

[Taj79]

... I had a thread somewhere on here that discussed the St. Louis area as a major prospect college sports production area. It had to do with what this area has done in producing Division 1 players and we measured it by selecting St. Louis players "successful" enough to fill say a 12-man NBA roster. I know that's not fair but I think to be considered a success in college means at least a draft spot or time on an NBA team. I think I got to maybe 8 or 9 players that I'd count. I asked that it stay "current" ... going back to either 1975 or 1980. I didn't want to hear about MacCauley or Bradley or joJo White. If you haven't read it, I'd say it was interesting at best.

The St. Louis definition was anyone who played at SLU, or came out of high school drawing the boundaries as Missouri with a north-south line through Columbia but not to include Mizzou players, and an east/west line across Illinois just below Springfield and including all the southern state.

To sum it up, the list did not fill the 12-man roster in my opinion. So in 25 to 30 years, the midwest area defined above has produced maybe less than a "player" every two years. If you lower the standards for "successful" the list will grow but still, this area, the St. Louis area, does not seem to produce a great number of "major Division 1" prospects.

If you buy that, and we are saying Lisch and Liddell and the "best" this area has to offer, and I'm not disputing that, is is maybe okay to assume that the best ain't really that good? "Typically" the best means something .... maybe the best here in this area can only achieve "mediocre" ratings or results in college when comapred to elsewhere. A few years ago inthe preseason, broy said the Bills looked great in West Pine gym. I seem to recall the season going south at the outset and staying there. I said maybe an average guy looks good at West Pine when he's up against mediocre in practice each day.

the only thing I don't know is how good are the L&L boys? That can't be answered until next year. I said in Brad I trust, but right now, its wavering based on the reality of VN, TF, BH and DC over the glowing prospects of the same. So now I'm getting told the prospects of the L&L boys are endless. But if past history, and I'm talkign now just recent past history, is any indication, why should I believe that the "typical" course will somehow, miraculously change?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. As a Billiken fan, I'm tired of getting fooled and endless amount of times. Maybe it can't be done here. Then I see a St. Mary's, a Gonzaga, a Charlotte, a GeoWashington, a Boston College and think, we are not that different from them. Are we?