cotto's high school coach in trouble

[satrap]

To treat everyone equally now only keeps a constant and growing divide between socioeconomic classes. .... While you think you are treatineryone equally, you are actually perpetuating the disparity caused by past practice. While there may be no prejudicial intent, there is a prejudicial effect.

This, I think is the core idea within most of the affirmative action movement and the like. It actually might work, in some limited way, to decrease the disparity between blacks and all other racial groups, although I have my doubts. Have any of you ever been to Conakry or Dakar? Chaos, Inc.

Anyway the interesting point moytoy makes is that there is an explicit acknowledgement that to get to a certain end, we need to act in a distinctly un-American way i.e against the creed of this nation. This would be a devastating phenomenon, not because it was the first time that such acts were done by government, but because those former acts (slavery, company stores, etc) were seen as an evil betrayal of this nations founding creed that all men are created equal.

This new discrimination would, somehow be seen as a salutary act, by those who are advocating it, thus being by definition a salutary betrayal of the nation's founding creed- if such a thing could exist. This would be exceedingly dangerous, as it would sanction differential treatment based on whatever notions might be at the whim of the populace at the time and would also retrospectively sanction slavery and other human ills in the name of the end justifying the means.

Nobody who has thought this through wants to see such a system implemented

[moytoy12]

This would be exceedingly dangerous, as it would sanction differential treatment based on whatever notions might be at the whim of the populace at the time and would also retrospectively sanction slavery and other human ills in the name of the end justifying the means.

Nobody who has thought this through wants to see such a system implemented.

Interesting comments, but I think it is more rhetoric than anything else. A learned response to past actions is now considered the whims of the populace? Further, when is this country not ruled by the whims of the populace? How would it sanction slavery any further than not acting at all? Aren't we actually treating everyone as equals if at the end of the day everyone is brought whole? And how is the end justifying the means when one group is demanding an end in response to the means effectuated by another group?

Anybody who has thought through this would realize that we have such a system implemented.

[HenryB]

What? Black lawyers and doctors??? Well then, you're right, everything must be fine and dandy.

There's a difference between "woe is me"/culture of victimization and realizing that past policy has created a society of unequals. Yes, every person has a chance to succeed. Yes, individuals have opportunities in this country if they work hard. I understand that and don't dismiss it. That doesn't mean that there isn't an imbalance that should be corrected.

I repeat, go visit Indians tribes that were subjected to forced removal or review the history of the Navajos where approximately 40,000 folks are without electricity largely as a result of federal policy towards indians. Yep, some Navajos have been successful, but I'll tell you what, it's a helluva lot easier to be successful academically if you have electricity.

My statements aren't one of victimization, but rather a reflection of reality. I don't think any other country does as much as America as well as America, but please, save me the rah rah b.s. Feel free to keep on truckin' with your blinders on thinking everything is a-ok and that just because we don't do anything to prevent anyone from succeeding then we aren't part of the problem.

Tell me of one....just one Indian who is forced to live on a reservation today...just one. Events that took place in this country long ago have nothing to do with opportunity today. If we are to accept your antiquated perspective, we should all wallow in self pity for there is not a person on the face of the earth if they trace their ancestry back far enough that can't find an example of their people being persecuted. That would be heaven for you, wouldn't it....a complete society of victims.

[moytoy12]

Tell me of one....just one Indian who is forced to live on a reservation today...just one. Events that took place in this country long ago have nothing to do with opportunity today. If we are to accept your antiquated perspective, we should all wallow in self pity for there is not a person on the face of the earth if they trace their ancestry back far enough that can't find an example of their people being persecuted. That would be heaven for you, wouldn't it....a complete society of victims.

Ok Ok, you win, no one has tied an indian down and forced that person to stay on the rez.

You're right nothing that has happened in this country's history has anything to do with a person's opportunity today. Nothing, nada, zilch. I'm not trying to use this thread as my soapbox for indian disenchantment, but please research the numerous things that were officially sanctioned in an attempt to eradicate tribes, which most definitely have an impact on the tribal way of life today.

What is antiquated about my perspective? The fact that we have trampled on groups in the past, done relatively little to make up for that and now expect them to accept that their starting point is equal to the tramplers? I'm not advocating handouts without responsibility which you seem to imply; there has to be continued justification for the continued investment in needier communities. But feel free to continue to bastardize my statements and assert that I desire a society of victims.

[kevinfootes]

Tell me of one....just one Indian who is forced to live on a reservation today...just one. Events that took place in this country long ago have nothing to do with opportunity today. If we are to accept your antiquated perspective, we should all wallow in self pity for there is not a person on the face of the earth if they trace their ancestry back far enough that can't find an example of their people being persecuted. That would be heaven for you, wouldn't it....a complete society of victims.

There's nothing like a group of white guys preaching about how minorities should think, feel, and behave. Especially when you have a qualified group like this one.

[moytoy12]

There's nothing like a group of white guys preaching about how minorities should think, feel, and behave. Especially when you have a qualified group like this one.

Are you sure Henry, BBF, Brian, Nash and myself are all white guys?

[Majerus Magic]

There's nothing like a group of white guys preaching about how minorities should think, feel, and behave. Especially when you have a qualified group like this one.

You mean like all Poli Sci professors?

[HenryB]

But feel free to continue to bastardize my statements and assert that I desire a society of victims.

LOL...bastardize your statements????? In every single post, you continue to bring up things that happened long ago and try to make the argument that they are relative today. Memo...we are not living 1700...or 1861.........or 1902. The year is 2008. Indians are not forced onto the reservation. Slavery ended well over a hundred years ago. America is such a horrible place for "minorities" yet for some strange reason hundreds of thousands want to cross our borders to come here. Why don't you say what you really mean? I asked you to provide me just one example of government policy that tolerates discrimination against a group of your alleged victims - you refuse to do so. Instead you continue to delve into the past to blame white america. Like I said in a previous post, race hustlers are perhaps the biggest frauds in this country. Far from wanting people to get along, to be color blind...these phonies remind us of our differences at every opportuntiy. They never want us to forget that we are brown, black, white, or yellow. They want us to know that everyone except one group is a victim. And, judging from your posts, they have been very successful in convinging you.

[moytoy12]

LOL...bastardize your statements????? In every single post, you continue to bring up things that happened long ago and try to make the argument that they are relative today. Memo...we are not living 1700...or 1861.........or 1902. The year is 2008. Indians are not forced onto the reservation. Slavery ended well over a hundred years ago.

Yes, you bastardized them by asserting that I wanted a nation of victims. Not true.

The point, that you have failed to realize and that I apparently won't get you to understand, is that past policies have an effect on today. Do you think that the events of the 60's had an affect on civil rights today?

America is such a horrible place for "minorities" yet for some strange reason hundreds of thousands want to cross our borders to come here. Why don't you say what you really mean?

Look back to the post where I say that America does more things better than any other other country

I asked you to provide me just one example of government policy that tolerates discrimination against a group of your alleged victims - you refuse to do so.

States and Tribes are theoretically equal sovereigns under federal law, yet tribes do not receive a proportionate share of federal monies allocated to states because of the federal government's assertion that tribes are domestic dependent sovereigns.

The United States Federal Court has held the last three Secretaries of the Interior in contempt for their ongoing breach of duties to tribes.

Tribes must get federal approval for certain tribal actions (approving certain agreements on tribal lands), states do not (yet, the federal government asserts that tribes are equal to states).

Instead you continue to delve into the past to blame white america. Like I said in a previous post, race hustlers are perhaps the biggest frauds in this country. Far from wanting people to get along, to be color blind...these phonies remind us of our differences at every opportuntiy. They never want us to forget that we are brown, black, white, or yellow. They want us to know that everyone except one group is a victim. And, judging from your posts, they have been very successful in convinging you.

I blame everyone in America that fails to act, not just white America. This isn't a race issue for me. When we knowingly fail to act we are as blameworthy as doing something intentionally discriminatory. I won't expect you to understand this thought since you believe that the past exists in a vacuum which doesn't affect current realities.

[BIG BILL FAN]

Yes, you bastardized them by asserting that I wanted a nation of victims. Not true.

The point, that you have failed to realize and that I apparently won't get you to understand, is that past policies have an effect on today. Do you think that the events of the 60's had an affect on civil rights today?

Look back to the post where I say that America does more things better than any other other country

States and Tribes are theoretically equal sovereigns under federal law, yet tribes do not receive a proportionate share of federal monies allocated to states because of the federal government's assertion that tribes are domestic dependent sovereigns.

The United States Federal Court has held the last three Secretaries of the Interior in contempt for their ongoing breach of duties to tribes.

Tribes must get federal approval for certain tribal actions (approving certain agreements on tribal lands), states do not (yet, the federal government asserts that tribes are equal to states).

I blame everyone in America that fails to act, not just white America. This isn't a race issue for me. When we knowingly fail to act we are as blameworthy as doing something intentionally discriminatory. I won't expect you to understand this thought since you believe that the past exists in a vacuum which doesn't affect current realities.

The fact is Moytoy, it is a race issue. For some reason all of the problems in this country seem to fall on white America. I truly believe that much of black America has no interest in accepting the overtures of white america to be a nation of one. Why else do we still see the United ***** College Fund, Black entertainment Television, Miss Black America, the NAACP? What would the outrage be if we had the National Association of White People? This would be universally condemned by white and black together, yet the there is no problem with a black separtist group. How do groups such as these promote unity among the races. Why do we have 20,000 people in chicago ( not just a few Slufan) gather weekly to listen to hate talk directed toward white america? The fact is black leaders such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpeton, and Jeremiah Wright would be out of business if they allowed the races to get along. Lastly, it is an insult to all Black American to insinuate that they can't succeed in life with out special consideration being given to them They are just as capable of succeeding as anyone else if they have the same motivation to succeed. They don't need to be hired just because they are black, they don't need bonus points added to their examination test to qualify for a job. Unfortunately, they are being reminded daily by their own leaders that the white man will never accept them and that they are destined for failure because of it.

[satrap]

Interesting comments, but I think it is more rhetoric than anything else. A learned response to past actions is now considered the whims of the populace? Further, when is this country not ruled by the whims of the populace? How would it sanction slavery any further than not acting at all? Aren't we actually treating everyone as equals if at the end of the day everyone is brought whole? And how is the end justifying the means when one group is demanding an end in response to the means effectuated by another group?

Anybody who has thought through this would realize that we have such a system implemented.

No. This country is a country of "laws, not men," or so it is said and should be. The fact that men promoted and countenanced slavery against it's universalist founding creed says alot about the potential of men unmoored from the law and with the "best intentions" in mind. It can only be profoundly against the law to redress the crimes of long dead people, against long dead victims, where proxy victims and, by extension, proxy criminals are the adversaries.

Also, it is impossible to calibrate a system wherein everybody is brought whole. At least the governemental instrument to do so has not invented yet outside a strictly socialist system where everybody is either very poor or very Swedish. Black Americans have the unenviable position at the bottom of the world mercantilist system- with no significant representation in the world's business class in the manner of Jews, Armenians, or Greeks, etc., so no money in the diaspora. You are neighbors to the richest black African cohort in the world- the same one which is also really poor, relative to all other peoples.

We can have, and do have, a limited system of redress based on income inequality. It has had very limited success on it's own and perhaps none at all. We could do "more" but only with the erosion of freedom of some other economic group-namely non-black ethnic groups that drive the majority of this country's economic output and the worlds. That is politically impossible. Beyond impossible.

[moytoy12]

The fact is Moytoy, it is a race issue. For some reason all of the problems in this country seem to fall on white America. I truly believe that much of black America has no interest in accepting the overtures of white america to be a nation of one. Why else do we still see the United ***** College Fund, Black entertainment Television, Miss Black America, the NAACP? What would the outrage be if we had the National Association of White People? This would be universally condemned by white and black together, yet the there is no problem with a black separtist group. How do groups such as these promote unity among the races. Why do we have 20,000 people in chicago ( not just a few Slufan) gather weekly to listen to hate talk directed toward white america? The fact is black leaders such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpeton, and Jeremiah Wright would be out of business if they allowed the races to get along. Lastly, it is an insult to all Black American to insinuate that they can't succeed in life with out special consideration being given to them They are just as capable of succeeding as anyone else if they have the same motivation to succeed. They don't need to be hired just because they are black, they don't need bonus points added to their examination test to qualify for a job. Unfortunately, they are being reminded daily by their own leaders that the white man will never accept them and that they are destined for failure because of it.

I feel sorry for you.

[kevinfootes]

Are you sure Henry, BBF, Brian, Nash and myself are all white guys?

not all of you. at least 3 for sure would be my guess. you really think BBF is a white guy.

[moytoy12]

not all of you. at least 3 for sure would be my guess. you really think BBF is a white guy.

i have no clue.

[kevinfootes]

i have no clue.

I think you made some statement about being native american at some point, unless I'm confusing you with someone else.

[moytoy12]

I think you made some statement about being native american at some point, unless I'm confusing you with someone else.

nah, you're right.

[brianstl]

not all of you. at least 3 for sure would be my guess. you really think BBF is a white guy.

I don't think the race of any of us should disqualify us from being able to have an opinion on these issues. These issues and the policies that have been made to address them have a direct affect on almost every American.

[DirtyRican]

I thought this board was to discuss Billiken sports and the related? How about a thread on the baseball team which is having a decent year under a new head coach? They do have their last home series this weekend. Should be nice weather, bring your kids.

[brianstl]

I thought this board was to discuss Billiken sports and the related? How about a thread on the baseball team which is having a decent year under a new head coach? They do have their last home series this weekend. Should be nice weather, bring your kids.

There is definitely some good reasons to be optimistic about the future of Billiken baseball.

[Billiken Rich]

Anyway the interesting point moytoy makes is that there is an explicit acknowledgement that to get to a certain end, we need to act in a distinctly un-American way i.e against the creed of this nation. This would be a devastating phenomenon, not because it was the first time that such acts were done by government, but because those former acts (slavery, company stores, etc) were seen as an evil betrayal of this nations founding creed that all men are created equal.

This new discrimination would, somehow be seen as a salutary act, by those who are advocating it, thus being by definition a salutary betrayal of the nation's founding creed- if such a thing could exist. This would be exceedingly dangerous, as it would sanction differential treatment based on whatever notions might be at the whim of the populace at the time and would also retrospectively sanction slavery and other human ills in the name of the end justifying the means.

Nobody who has thought this through wants to see such a system implemented

Well spoken sir.

[Billiken Rich]

No. This country is a country of "laws, not men," or so it is said and should be. The fact that men promoted and countenanced slavery against it's universalist founding creed says alot about the potential of men unmoored from the law and with the "best intentions" in mind. It can only be profoundly against the law to redress the crimes of long dead people, against long dead victims, where proxy victims and, by extension, proxy criminals are the adversaries.

Also, it is impossible to calibrate a system wherein everybody is brought whole. At least the governemental instrument to do so has not invented yet outside a strictly socialist system where everybody is either very poor or very Swedish. Black Americans have the unenviable position at the bottom of the world mercantilist system- with no significant representation in the world's business class in the manner of Jews, Armenians, or Greeks, etc., so no money in the diaspora. You are neighbors to the richest black African cohort in the world- the same one which is also really poor, relative to all other peoples.

We can have, and do have, a limited system of redress based on income inequality. It has had very limited success on it's own and perhaps none at all. We could do "more" but only with the erosion of freedom of some other economic group-namely non-black ethnic groups that drive the majority of this country's economic output and the worlds. That is politically impossible. Beyond impossible.

Again,

Well spoken.

[moytoy12]

Again,

Well spoken.

While I don't necessarily agree with everything, it was indeed eloquently stated.

[Billiken Rich]

While I don't necessarily agree with everything, it was indeed eloquently stated.

I do agree with most of it. I'll tell you what else I think. I was born in 1969 and I do not think practical, old fashioned, redneck style, ignorant, racism will die until my parent's generation does as well. Many of the posters here are probably part of that generation.

[BIG BILL FAN]

I do agree with most of it. I'll tell you what else I think. I was born in 1969 and I do not think practical, old fashioned, redneck style, ignorant, racism will die until my parent's generation does as well. Many of the posters here are probably part of that generation.

From your quote " redneck style, ignortant, rascism " i'm assuming that you think it is only white americans that are rascist.

[BIG BILL FAN]

I feel sorry for you.

Please save your pity, I don't need it. Why don't you instead extend it to the downtrodden of the world and remind them that their lot in life will never change, because the mean old white man will never let them get ahead. Those are the ones who need your pity.