I guess it can happen...

[brianstl]

They have made six final fours, three before Nolan. Street & Smith's ranks them as the 8th best college program ever.

[slu72]

if you haven't figured it out by now, and trust me it would be obvious to the most casual observer, I'm not about to start defending UB. I wasn't pointing out problems in the program. I was pointing out a big big positive. That building going up on I40. I'm not one of the types that excuses UB's failure on lack of resources. He's had more to work with than any coach at SLU in the last 30-40 years. A beautiful urban campus, increased academic recognition, the Scott center comapred to the Arena and the old Kiel, and now Cheifits. It was up to him to make the program more attractive to local TV station, so they knew they had an audience in order to sell ads, so that TV excuse doesn't work either.

[brianstl]

I am just asking people to realize there are other problems. He may have more to work with than other Billiken coach, but the problem is SLU has been passed by other programs when it come financal support, facilities, and AD structure over that time. The programs that were already ahead of SLU have only increased the distance. SLU is only now playing catch up on some of these things.

One point, it would have been better for the Bills to be playing at the old Kiel for the last 20 years than any other place. They were the main tennant, had scheduling priority, it offered a true home court advantage, they could practice there on a regular basis, it was a smaller building thus it would make it a hotter ticket, and rent was far less expensive. Losing Kiel was one of the worst things to happen to the program in the last two decades.

[courtside]

>Pointing out other problems with the program is not

>defending UB. Pointing out that SLU will never be on the

>same level as Arkansas year in and year out is not defending

>UB. Pointing out that the staff cell phone bill is paid out

>of UB's compensation instead AD budget is not defending the

>job UB has done over the last 12 months. I gave Brad one of

>the lowest letter grades of anybody on here for his

>performance over the past 12 months.

>

>Just because SLU will never be what Arkansas should be in

>basketball doesn't mean you have low expectations. Gonzaga,

>Marquette, Georgetown, St Johns, and Villanova have never

>been the program that Arkansas was and should be. These

>schools have all had success but never the sustained level

>of success over decades that Arkansas has had. They will

>never have that kind of success. Arkansas and other

>programs with football at BCS conferences have too many

>built in advantages.

I disagree with this opinion. Georgetown for one has had 4 Final Fours to Arkanasas' 6...and like Marquette has had NIT Final four when that was equally as tough if not tougher than NCAA back in the day...Georgetown is rapidly approaching Arkansas' number of NCAA bids all time...sustained success for a long period under Thompson...

You through out several names there...but Georgetown is pretty close to Arkansas all time imo. To say they will never have that kind of success would be imo underinformed or misinformed. Glad I picked them to win it all this year. They have zero seniors, though likely to lose two players to pros next year and return a lot with top of the line recruits coming in and a great coach coaching them. Marquette has re-established itself as an annual NCAA team, and will return most key players on a young team and its incoming class features Wisconsin Co-basketball player of the year and another highly touted big. Don't see them slowing down any time soon.

You make it sound as if Arkansas is light years ahead of some of those non-football schools in hoops success and I would disgree with that over the top assertion. I would also disagree that their(non-football school) success cannot be sustained over time. Georgetown for example, has had similar success to Arkansas already. Take the Big East...with its $30 million tv deal. If you think you saw a lot of Big east hoops on tv this year, wait til next year when even more games on the contract are kicked in...the non-hoops schools share in that money. So in conclusion, some non-football schools have had some very comparable success over time...and some are now in a conference with a $30 million tv deal. I think they will do just fine. Georgetown won the Big East, 2 seed, Final Four...Marquette a recent Final Four team would have been a 4 seed or so if arguably their best player isn't shut down for season. I think they are doing just fine.

The non-football schools do not get the BCS money, but they do get the combined football hoops tv money and exposure. Georgetown for example had a down period near the end of Thompson when players went proi early etc...among other things that didn't happen before...Craig E wasn't the long term answer after being assistant almost two decades. But they are up and rollin' again now. This is not a blip on the radar. You will see Georgetown, Marquette, be strong for a long time to come. And possibly others.

[slu72]

Villanova hasn't been a wreck either, Courtside. In fact maybe even more recent success than Marquette. No matter what you argue about these schools, it always comes down to "why not SLU?".

[brianstl]

When was the last time before this year Geogetown went to a Elite Eight. When was the last time any of these teams played in a championship game. It is not just the money a big state BCS team recieves but it is the total athletic department structure that the Catholic schools can compete with. This is not the seventies or the early eighties when GU, MU, St. Johns, and Villanova were going to final fours, sweet sixteens, and winning or playing for national championships all the time. The changes to the competive landscape and distribution of the money has been drastic due to conference realignment. These teams will have success and will have some great years, but they will not have the year in year out success of Arkansas. Arkansas will win another national championship before any of those schools win one.

[courtside]

>Villanova hasn't been a wreck either, Courtside. In fact

>maybe even more recent success than Marquette. No matter

>what you argue about these schools, it always comes down to

>"why not SLU?".

We are talking about multiple things here. Brian mentioned Arkansas in terms of having way more history than say a Georgetown...6 Final Fours to 4...approx 30 NCAAs to 25ish....and this doesn't count the NIT success when the NIT was a big deal for Georgetown. And as it stands now, Georgetown is in a better position today...I'd call that pretty comparable.

To that point I'd say I disagree with the notion of going forward...those non-football schools will be hoops powers going forward. They do have a big advantage now over SLU...the league, the combined tv deal. However, as we have discussed, schools build relationships and build success to position themselves down the road. Schools have won without the big time league or money or tv deals...to sustain that long term, the tv deal and league would need to be upgraded.

As to your point, Villanova and Marquette have been virtually even in past 20 years or so...Villanova has had Wright vs Marquette's Crean(slight edge to Crean with Final Four to elite 8, and more NCAA's)....Lappas was comparable to O'Neill and Deane, not as good as O'Neill but he stuck around longer than both. Villanova had the 85 title, Marquette had it 77....though Marquette has an NIT title and other Final fours etc...to edge out in history....but yes some very comparable things. Wright may go to NBA, or even elsehwere, might not. Crean is not likely to go anywhere anytime soon. Kentucky would be only possibility and that is not likely, but possible sure. Any coach would look at the historically top 5 programs in America.

SLU doesn't even have to be one of these schools.

[courtside]

>When was the last time before this year Geogetown went to a

>Elite Eight. When was the last time any of these teams

>played in a championship game. It is not just the money a

>big state BCS team recieves but it is the total athletic

>department structure that the Catholic schools can compete

>with. This is not the seventies or the early eighties when

>GU, MU, St. Johns, and Villanova were going to final fours,

>sweet sixteens, and winning or playing for national

>championships all the time. The changes to the competive

>landscape and distribution of the money has been drastic due

>to conference realignment. These teams will have success

>and will have some great years, but they will not have the

>year in year out success of Arkansas. Arkansas will win

>another national championship before any of those schools

>win one.

Considering I have Georgetown dfeating UCLA in the title game in the pool, hope you are wrong. So far so good.

[Billikan]

I have talked at length with Cheryl about this and she was absolutely furious about the way the league screwed up the TV deal but she had no leverage to do anything about it. We are new to the conference and have the clout of a late arrival in a lot of decisions. She will definitely push for SLU and for the conference to stop being idiots but without more clout in the conference she will be just one voice, albeit a forceful one~

[moytoy12]

Is this a year-to-year contract (the CSTV/A-10 contract) that has to be renewed by either (or both) of the parties or is there a term?

[brianstl]

I have them doing the samething in mine against the Gators. JT3 is just an awesome coach. IMO far superior to his father. I think the programs we are talking about can have some big success. I just think it is easier to do yearly at a school like Arkansas. If you offered all those HC jobs to me and told me to pick the one that I thought I could have the sustained long term success with the least amount of struggles I am picking Arkansas and not thinking long about it.

[brianstl]

It said it was a long term deal, but it did not state how many years.

[courtside]

>I have talked at length with Cheryl about this and she was

>absolutely furious about the way the league screwed up the

>TV deal but she had no leverage to do anything about it. We

>are new to the conference and have the clout of a late

>arrival in a lot of decisions. She will definitely push for

>SLU and for the conference to stop being idiots but without

>more clout in the conference she will be just one voice,

>albeit a forceful one~

The conference issue is not her only concern. If you do not think she has concerns about her superiors support in college athletics, then you don't know Levick aas well as you say.

[Taj79]

... Lorenzo Romar went HOME to his alma mater. Huge, huge difference in my book. This was not a case of a guy still climbing the ladder. The stench of his reign at SLU was interrupted before it really clung to him. He was on the path to doom ... he had one aberration in Memphis and the cupboard of recruits was incredibly bare as attested by many on here. He had to jump while the gleam of UCLA and his one-and-done year here had not yet completely wilted. Little to nothing he did here translated into getting the bigger gig.

Spoon quit. Plain and simple. He retired and only resurfaced once he made the move out of here. No one came calling for the Spoon-meister and offered bigger and better things. He was out on his own for a few years before UNLV came along. And, if it was such a great gig, how come he didn't stay?

I have long advocated our own arena but as many have stated, to believe that it is the biggest obstacle to SLU hoops and to build it remedies things, is blatantly wrong. Lots of school shave their own arenas ..... for years Hinkle Fieldhouse was seen as a big impediment to Butler's program. Now, with Butler's success, its nostalgic as opposed to oppressive. "Hoosiers" was shot there. "Legendary" Hinkle Fieldhouse. What impedes recruits from coming here is still here .... a non-winning tradition. And a one-and-done (Hughes) or a two-and-done(Claggs or Douglas) is not enough to sustain a program. We have been through those and blew it.

Frankly, I will always cheer for the alma mater and never trade in the colors. But I am fast approaching the belief that instead of sustainability, the one- and two-and-dones are the best we might have to hope for. It won't be a popular assessment or statement but it might be truer than thinking this program can attain theheights so many belief it has a birthrite to for just being here.

Throwing money at the problem doesn't necessarily work either or Danny Snyder and the Washington Redskins would win every Super Bowl in August. The rest of the American League wouldn't play ... there'd be 162 games, then a best-of-seven between the Yankess and Red Sox when they got done with the first 162. Even in our own league, when was the last time Duquesne, St. Bonaventure, Fordham and Richmond were actually consistently good? Back in the old league, how about Tulane or East Carolina or South Florida?

What happened the year after Claggs, Hmark and H graduated? Why was there nothing to reap from those two glorious years? What happened after the Legend left? Gray, Dougals and Bonner? Face it, since 1975 this program has hada six really good years .... with the oopsie that was Memphis in 2000. Six in thrity-two which is a paltry percentage of what, 18.8% eh? Rounded up, that's two great years every ten or one in five. But that's an average. Sometimes, its five years in every 25 and it coudl be that years 1 through 20 really suck and the great years are a five year run at the end.

We've gone unknown hire in this program (Albrecht, Coleman). We've gone local hero returning home (Grawer). We've gone regional legend moving up (Spoon). We've gone nationally-known, high riser (Romar). And now we've gone off-the radar, midwest product (Soderberg). All have had in my book zero sustainability. Now the calls are to reinvent the wheel again with some guy who's going to be better just because some believe he can't be any worse. Whatever. Go for it. Pull the trigger.

I'll still be there. I'll live those rare highs like there's no tomorrow because, well, for the most part, there is none.

[courtside]

>When was the last time before this year Geogetown went to a

>Elite Eight. When was the last time any of these teams

>played in a championship game. It is not just the money a

>big state BCS team recieves but it is the total athletic

>department structure that the Catholic schools can compete

>with. This is not the seventies or the early eighties when

>GU, MU, St. Johns, and Villanova were going to final fours,

>sweet sixteens, and winning or playing for national

>championships all the time. The changes to the competive

>landscape and distribution of the money has been drastic due

>to conference realignment. These teams will have success

>and will have some great years, but they will not have the

>year in year out success of Arkansas. Arkansas will win

>another national championship before any of those schools

>win one.

Arkansas last went to a Final Four in 1995. Since then both Marquette and Georgetown have been to one. I am not sure I understand your selectivity in school history. So, Arkansas was good in the 1990's and that makes them superior to Marquette and Georgetwon success in the 1970's and 80's because it happened later....but if one used your same line of thinking, Arkansas hasnt had the same recent success as either Marquette or Georgetown since the 1990's....therefore wouldn't it be more fair to evaluate a program by actually evaluating a program.

Arkansas has been to 6 Final Fours to Georgetowns 4. Again, like Marquette this does not count the NIT Final Fours or titles when it was every bit as good as NCAA. All time Arkansas has had approx 30 NCAA appearances to approx 25 for Georgetown.

The Big East doubled their most recent tv contract...doubled. $15 million to $30 million. 70-80 games on tv. Next season 100% of their games will be on tv via ESPN or CBS. Non-football schools do not get BCS money, however they do receive that tv money and exposure. If you do not think Georgetown and Marquette and others won't be good for a long time in forseeable future, ...well politely I couldn't disagree more.

Am I supposed to think that Arkansas because of different academic standards and ability to share in BCS money(I will look up SEC contract tv dollars...ACC is first with $40 million, Big East is 2nd with $30 million, can't think of SEC off of top of head...).....will be positioned far better and than those private schools? I don't think so.

Sure advantages abound, but schools can and do win with higher standards and more challeges. Just because it is supposedly easier somewhere else doesn't automatically mean that greater levels of success actually happen.

The histories of Arkansas and Georgetown are proof of that already.

[slufanskip]

Money being the same ... I'd go to Georgetown. Unless I had a really hot sister, then I'd go to Arkansas.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[courtside]

> Money being the same ... I'd go to Georgetown. Unless I

>had a really hot sister, then I'd go to Arkansas.

>

>

> Official Billikens.com sponsor of H

>Waldman

>

>Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would

>have helped club.

They do have quite the dance team at Arkansas, and cheerleadersnot that I noticed, nor spent any time with them over the years.

;-)

[brianstl]

If MU and GU can keep their coaches for the next decade it make there chances of sustaining their success much higher. You are hearing Crean's named mentioned with every big time opening now. I would tend to play down his name with the UK opening, but if Donovan takes the UK job I believe your next U of F coach is Tom Crean. I also believe that JT3 will not have the the same tenure at GU as his father. One more dissappionting year at Maryland and I think you are looking at Thompson as the next coach of the Terps.

There are schools were it is easier to get it done on a yearly basis than at the Catholic schools. If you don't think the coaches at those schools feel the same way you are kidding yourself.

[slufanskip]

Can you date outside your family down there?

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[moytoy12]

Is a 1st cousin outside of the family?

[slufanskip]

It's probably ok under the don't ask don't tell policy.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[courtside]

>If MU and GU can keep their coaches for the next decade it

>make there chances of sustaining their success much higher.

>You are hearing Crean's named mentioned with every big time

>opening now. I would tend to play down his name with the UK

>opening, but if Donovan takes the UK job I believe your next

>U of F coach is Tom Crean. I also believe that JT3 will not

>have the the same tenure at GU as his father. One more

>dissappionting year at Maryland and I think you are looking

>at Thompson as the next coach of the Terps.

>

>There are schools were it is easier to get it done on a

>yearly basis than at the Catholic schools. If you don't

>think the coaches at those schools feel the same way you are

>kidding yourself.

Williams is in zero danger at Maryland and isn't going anywhere. JT3 isn't going anywhere either. Crean wouldn't leave Marquette for Florida. He would for Kentucky where he has strong relationships with Barnhart the AD, the Kentucky media, where he coahced for years at WKU and his father in law was head football coach.

[brianstl]

For your insight.