New conference

[washu77]

If you can't beat them, join them. If the A-10 doesn't work out for the Billikens, why not apply for entry in the MVC along with Xavier and Dayton from the A-10 and Butler from the Horizon Conference? With the existing 10 teams the 'new' Valley might look like this:

West East

St.Louis Xavier

Wichita St Dayton

Missouri st Evansville

Creighton Butler

N. Iowa SIU

Drake Illinois St

Bradley Indiana St

All teams have a winning record

[courtside]

and not a lot of NCAA bids. Valley in trouble again tonight. SIU is only lock right now this year. Collapse city going on at MO ST. Xavier has as good of a shot as any of the remaining teams to dance.

[BLIKNS]

You can`t be talking about The Valley the media`s sweetheart.

[slu72]

It's a little difficult for us to be talking about shunning the A-10 at this juncture. It's not like we're head and shoulders above everyone. So it would be extremely arrogant and stupid to be saying dump the A-10. Hell, the way it's going we may not make the A-10 tourney, and then what do I do with these tickets to Atlantic City?

[rhagolf]

Anything that reduces the travel expenses that result from back-and-forth trips to the East Coast is OK by me.

Then, that budget can be reallocated to recruiting. That is, if the coach is up to the challenge.

[Eddie_Gaedel]

That would never work. You make too much sense.

[courtside]

>Anything that reduces the travel expenses that result from

>back-and-forth trips to the East Coast is OK by me.

>

>Then, that budget can be reallocated to recruiting. That is,

>if the coach is up to the challenge.

Let's just have SLU play in the Valley and walk to games, or make a league promise that SLU gets all home games. That'll save some money.

[rhagolf]

Dear Courtside:

Your meager attempt at humor really makes my response pointless, but here goes:

1. The A-10 is, and always will be, an Eastern Seaboard conference, excluding Xavier and Dayton. First, not only are they plane trips, but many involve overnight stays in hotels. And, we're not just talking about men's basketball, here. How about women's basketball and volleyball, men's and women's soccer, field hockey, etc. Geography is against you.

2. While some natives of NY, NJ, and PA might really get into seeing the Bonnies, the Dukes, the Owls, etc., what is the likelihood that the casual SLU fan will ever really care to go to the new arena for these opponents? Probably, the same interest that Savannah State brings to the table. Most of them couldn't tell you where Olean, NY really is.

3. At least with regional opponents, the players may have played in AAU or high school ball against each other. Maybe, just maybe, a little player-rivalry might help? Just a thought.

Make any sense? Or, have I just exceeded your willingness to consider alternatives?

[billiken_roy]

i dont know where cedar rapids iowa is either and i have been there twice! i think everyone can take the worst or best case scenario of any conference and make a point.

what slu has always hoped was to create a new conference. aligning ourselves with xavier and dayton is a great start to making that happen down the road and for all the reasons we dont like the a-10, you can bet that dayton and xu think the same.

i am still betting that creighton would love to join us as well.

if you have a nice base of four like thinking schools, that is a nice start.

while the big east seems to be fine right now, i am still betting that eventually that 16 headed monster is going to blow up. too many teams equals teams not getting to post season that want to. wait it out. the worst thing we can do is get buried in the mvc. if we do that, kiss any chance for our dream midwestern private school conference away and we are forever riding buses to peoria, evansville, terre haute, cedar rapids, and des moines.

[rhagolf]

Roy -

I agree that the upside on the MVC probably isn't much better than the A-10. I am only looking at it from an expense standpoint. The budget for sports @ SLU is only so much, and, if you're spending it on travel and lodging, than cannot help but take away from recruiting. The Billikens should not be in business to keep Lambert Field in operation, or the Hyatt-Regency Whatever.

I appreciate your well-founded opinions that you express. It's a pleasure to follow your logic. Thanks!

[courtside]

>Dear Courtside:

>

>Your meager attempt at humor really makes my response

>pointless, but here goes:

>

>1. The A-10 is, and always will be, an Eastern Seaboard

>conference, excluding Xavier and Dayton. First, not only are

>they plane trips, but many involve overnight stays in

>hotels. And, we're not just talking about men's basketball,

>here. How about women's basketball and volleyball, men's

>and women's soccer, field hockey, etc. Geography is against

>you.

>2. While some natives of NY, NJ, and PA might really get

>into seeing the Bonnies, the Dukes, the Owls, etc., what is

>the likelihood that the casual SLU fan will ever really care

>to go to the new arena for these opponents? Probably, the

>same interest that Savannah State brings to the table. Most

>of them couldn't tell you where Olean, NY really is.

>3. At least with regional opponents, the players may have

>played in AAU or high school ball against each other.

>Maybe, just maybe, a little player-rivalry might help? Just

>a thought.

>

>Make any sense? Or, have I just exceeded your willingness

>to consider alternatives?

First of all, you, like many others, overestimate this regional rivalry thing. SLU is not packing it in for the MVC schools on their schedule already. Nobody explains that to me. PEople don't go to games when the MVC comes to play SLU. And these are the top MVC teams, can't imagine the bottome dwellers coming to town. The casual fan wants to see a winner.(yours or theirs) Period. If SLU isn't any good, casual fans won't be plucking down cash to see Drake, Evansville, nor the big boys of the MVC. They need entertainment value. So, if SLU isn't good, they aren't going. Also, EVERY school in the country has a Savannah St on their schedule. Do you get to other parts of the country etc...? or even in your MVC, take a look. SIU played only a couple of home games all non-conference. You would have had to have bought that plane ticket to see them play non-conference.

Casual fans also want to see SLU play competitive teams. The MVC has nowhere near the history or reputation of the A10. Only twice in even the last 7 years has the NCAA given the MVC more invites to the NCAA. You are common of people who live in the present year, not future, nor recent past. The MVC is still, ...still not respected nationally. I don't want to play in that kind of a league. Best year ever for MVC according to Dana Altman and several other league coaches, straight from their mouths...and it still isn't getting resepcted by national media and NCAA. And, this is combined with a couple year down period with A10. Let's for the sake of argument say the two legaues are a wash, which I don't even agree with, but let's say so. I would rather see SLU play in a league that is more respected, has a more decent shot at annual NCAA teams, has much more media exposure, etc..

SLU is trying to build a long term men's basketball program(I hope), and step one in that process was a no brainer, picking A10 over MVC. SLU hopes to some day long down the road be in a better conference than either one, and that invite will not come if they are in the MVC, period. SLU also has publicly stated their non-basketball goals, and none of those fit in with the MVC. You want SLU to join the MVC because you get excited to see N. Iowa, Indiana St. etc...the MVC is still a league where the coaches bolt for better jobs...SIU, N Iowa Illinois St etc...You also have this tunnel vision mentality that rivals are only built on geography. That simply isn't true. Rivalries often times are built on competitive play between two teams where geography has nothing to do with it. Cincy, Louisville etc...had plenty of rivals in SLU's old conference because they were good teams, not because of where they were located. Last time I checked, Louisville, Notre Dame, Marquette etc..Midwest teams....weren't having trouble drawing fans to Big East games...because they are good teams. DePaul, not drawing as many because they haven't been as good. That is how it works.

At some point SLU has to decide does it want to succeed in Athletics or not. Really simple. Basketball brings in all of the revenue for the other sports. So it is safe to say, SLU needs to have a successful basketball program to support those other programs. In order for SLU to have a successful basketball program, they need to go to NCAA's which draws most interest, money etc...get revenue in other ways, get media exposure and so on and so on. You really have to have a plan. Like anything in life you have to build relationships. SLU has never done this very well, in part because they have never had a commitment to being successful, and still don't. SLU didn't want to join the A10, nor the Valley. SLU had to because it was not succeeding in basketball, not building relationships, etc...didn't really have a plan for success. And regardless of league, will not get anywhere until it does.

[billiken_roy]

are we spending considerably more? what does a flight to wichita or des moines cost as opposed to philly? i dont know and since they dont break travel out in the budget numbers we see i dont know what the difference amount is. i agree it is likely more, but how much is the question.

[courtside]

>are we spending considerably more? what does a flight to

>wichita or des moines cost as opposed to philly? i dont

>know and since they dont break travel out in the budget

>numbers we see i dont know what the difference amount is. i

>agree it is likely more, but how much is the question.

Shoot Roy...major D-1 hoops...let's just bus to those places above. That'll really bring em in.

[billiken_roy]

good point courtside,

i know if i was a potential recruit, that bus ride to terre haute or evansville sounds like a lot of fun as opposed to the plane rides to philly, wash, charlotte, cincy, new york, etc. plus, i am sure the dining options in cedar rapids and peoria and bloomington will exceed anything the recruits will get on the east coast.

i seem to remember a real fine place in cedar rapids called the broom factory. go there.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I don't think Xavier would ever go to the MVC. Xavier and Dayton are some 350+ miles closer to the East Coast than is SLU.

Unquestionably, there are travel concerns with the A-10. That was surely factored into SLU's decision. Don't forget SLU's former conference, C-USA had significant travel issues too with members including South Florida and East Carolina.

By being paired with Xavier and Dayton, SLU is at least positioned for any Big East splintering. However, that splintering seems less likely now than when the 16 team Big East was formed.

In another thread, I suggested this proposed league as a backup plan for SLU in case the Big East remains intact:

From the A-10:

Dayton

SLU

Xavier

From the MVC:

Bradley

Creighton

From the Horizon:

Butler

Loyola Chicago

Detroit.

Travel would be much less for SLU than in the A-10. This league would have teams in major markets in Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, St. Louis, and Cincinnati. This would be a conference composed of schools sharing similar visions.

[Eddie_Gaedel]

Nowhere near the history or reputation? How long has the A10 been in existence? I think it was 1975. The MVC is the second oldest conference in the United States if I'm not mistaken.

Some of you people think you're a little too special.

[billiken_roy]

the reason the big east will ultimately break is that the big payoff, the ncaa tourney is less accessable to more of those teams.

for example, louisville and cincy were given's in cusa days. now they have to fight like hell to make the tourney. both will likely miss this year.

depaul and marquette had a chance to make it every year in conference usa. depaul has become a conference also ran in the big east.

no matter how you slice it, but adding those teams, the old teams also lessened their future appearances. surely they never thought that they would gain five more ncaa spots and get 8-10 a year instead of 3-5?

right now if the tourney was selected today with no upsets to speak of, pitt, marquette, georgetown and villanova are givens. and maybe syracuse and notre dame are bubble teams.

that leaves out uconn, louisville, cincy, depaul, st johns, providence, and west virginia all looking like nit teams! i can guarantee you that a few years of that and schools will be rethinking the 16 team league regardless of how much espn is paying them because they will be missing out on the ultimate ncaa payoff.

[Bay Area Billiken]

B-Roy,

From our perspective as SLU supporters, I sure hope you are right.

If the Big East breaks, there are issues about which group retains the Big East label, which group gets Madison Square Garden for the conference tournament, etc.

I recall reading somewhere that this 16 team Big East is supposed to remain intact at least until early in the next decade. The Big East signed that 6 year deal with ESPN.

Although the Big East is shifting to an 18 game conference schedule, I agree that you have to wonder how many years of being left out of the NCAA Tournament, and for some of these schools, being left out of the Big East Tournament itself, will these schools be willing to take.

Meanwhile, where does this all leave SLU? Even with the travel issues, the A-10 is probably the best place at this time, all things considered.

I wish SLU could drive the truck for once in these conference moves, instead of either being along for the ride, or being dropped off somewhere along the way. The last time SLU was driving the truck was when the Metro was formed in the mid-1970's.

[davidlee]

I was playing around with possible teams for a new confeence the other day and came up with the same list with a few exceptions.

I don't think Bradley would leave the MVC since it has been a member for such along time, but who knows.

A couple ideas for a replacemnt for them were Valpo, Evansville or Oral Roberts.

It looks very similiar to the old Midwestern City Conference from the 80's.

I am not saying this is a bad idea for a conference, but I would certainly want to think about it real hard though.

[Billiken Rich]

Sometimes it just means ancient, rusty, moldy, and lasped in to ruin......

My Name Is The Missouri Valley Conference, Conference of Conferences! Look Upon My Works All Ye Mighty and Despair!

[Bay Area Billiken]

I think the hardest sells would be Dayton and Xavier, as well as Bradley and Creighton.

Yes Bradley has been a MVC member for a long time. And Bradley has established rivalries in the MVC, especially with Illinois State, the so-called "War on 74." But Bradley and SLU used to be big rivals when SLU was in the MVC.

Creighton also has established MVC rivalries. The hope there would be that this would allow Creighton to be united with similar schools, many of them fellow Jesuit schools.

Interestingly, when the meetings began that resulted in the formation of the Midwestern City Conference, those meetings were started by DePaul, and Bradley was at the first meeting. Neither ultimately joined. And Creighton was at a subsequent meeting, and also didn't join.

Without knowing, I would think the 3 Horizon members (Loyola, Butler, and Detroit) would jump at this chance.

It is doubtful that something like this will happen in the near future until a conclusion is reached on the Big East situation.

[Eddie_Gaedel]

Yep, you're right.... it's not the allmighty A10.

[Billiken Rich]

http://www.rc.umd.edu/rchs/reader/ozymandias.html

[courtside]

>Yep, you're right.... it's not the allmighty A10.

This is the problem I have with MVC people. Apparently you are too lazy to read threads from past few days or weeks before posting. Try reading some of mine on the topic.

I, like everyone else here is seeking what is in the best interest for SLU, and also taking into account their stated goals. If I thought the MVC was the proper choice for SLU, I'd say so. ANYBODY here would tell you that.

MVC people come here, throw down how SLU should join MVC, people debate why they think otherwise, and this is what ensues every time. EVERY coach in the MVC has said this is the BEST it has ever been. It received one team with a seed of less than 10 last year in NCAA....go look at mock picks for this year...SAME thing.

No one here thinks the A10 is greatest thing since sliced bread. But anyone paying attention knows when competing well, it crushes the MVC in respect and attention. Yes that little A10. Everyone here if you polled them would rather be in Big East. Yep, all of those East Coast schools, far away, no geogrpahic rivalries, no long hours of bus trips to middle America.

MO St was a 20 something RPI last year....did not get invited. Can you explain that to me?

Even when people point out reason after reason why SLU chose A10...the defensive MVC supporters come out and turn it into comments like this.

The MVC was a LONG TIME one bid league...meaning you could actually bust your tail all year and know every year, you even win the league, you do not dance. People here like to dance, they want to dance. Ballroom, Hip Hop, Shuffle, Tango, techno, Salsa....you name it...

And this ONLY speaks to basketball. When given a choice between two leagues....one has much more media exposure, attention, strong academic schools, East Coast presence, (SLU doesn't want to be the local regional school, ask its President). a league where when all is equal it doesn't dance less.

Why would SLU choose Valley?

Somehow this offends the MVC people that SLU has thumbed its nose. Hurts their feelings. This is business, not personal. It is a much better business decision. And it is a long term busines decision.

[courtside]

>the reason the big east will ultimately break is that the

>big payoff, the ncaa tourney is less accessable to more of

>those teams.

>

>for example, louisville and cincy were given's in cusa days.

> now they have to fight like hell to make the tourney. both

>will likely miss this year.

>

>depaul and marquette had a chance to make it every year in

>conference usa. depaul has become a conference also ran in

>the big east.

>

>no matter how you slice it, but adding those teams, the old

>teams also lessened their future appearances. surely they

>never thought that they would gain five more ncaa spots and

>get 8-10 a year instead of 3-5?

>

>right now if the tourney was selected today with no upsets

>to speak of, pitt, marquette, georgetown and villanova are

>givens. and maybe syracuse and notre dame are bubble teams.

>

>that leaves out uconn, louisville, cincy, depaul, st johns,

>providence, and west virginia all looking like nit teams! i

>can guarantee you that a few years of that and schools will

>be rethinking the 16 team league regardless of how much espn

>is paying them because they will be missing out on the

>ultimate ncaa payoff.

Every school that has had 9-7 conference record has been invited to NCAA's from Big East conference. I would argue that the Big East will build off of last year and continue to put more teams in NCAA's and not less or same in most year's. Syracuse and Notre Dame are locks if season ended today.(that is 6 right there and possibly more in a down year for conference) But really going 9-7 gets you in...and also some 8-8 teams in some years like last year, Seton Hall etc... UConn is incredibly young, so that isn't going to last for long. JB can coach at WV and lost a ton of seniors. I would also add the hiring of Bobby Gonzalez at Seton Hall....they will be very good in a couple of years...and Norm Roberts at St. John's...will only help the league. I see the league in some upcoming years getting even more teams than they did last year. Not this year, but definitely in upcoming years, ...UConn, Louisville,(still a possible NCAA team this year btw) Seton Hall, St. John's, all will be very good...and if you look at the classes and teams coming up for the other ones....I think the NCAA will only be giving more invites to Big East instead of less...

9-7 record has 100% invitation rate for Big East. Last year 8 teams made it and last one out would have been 9. In future strong years of Big East...I see them getting that 9th team wihtout much question and 8-8 might be the new 9-7 etc...