billiken_roy Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 i am satisfied you have changed your language from basically wanting to replace liddell at point guard and move him to small forward to now agreeing to needing depth at the position. i dont even agree with that for this coming season as the power forward has to be covered and depth at center is more sorely needed. after that, by all means bring in the backup 3rd string point guard that can be molded to take over the spot when tommie leaves in june of 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTIME Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 >I also think it would be nice to add another point guard to >handle the ball. We still have three scholarships. Let's use >them! Here are my priorities in order. 1) A 4 who can shoot >from outside, BradS has stated that this is a top priority - >Stemler??? 2) A big who can play D and rebound 3) A point >guard or even combo guard who can shoot the 3 a little bit. >This would help offset the loss of AD and have another pg in >the system to develop for a couple years behind Polk. > >At the 3, Tommie could be what they call in the NBA a point >forward. He's also so valuable rebounding that I think those >skills are better used at the 3. That's not to say that >Tommie still wouldn't get some time at the point, but late >in games, when we have leads, it is so valuable to have >another true point guard, to handle the ball, hit free >throws when he gets fouled, etc. Tommie has had multiple double doubles from the pg position, and he creates for himself by setting up his crossover. Its much better for him to play pg, so he can call his number when he wants and and the other 90% run the offense and create for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTIME Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 >Kshoe, I am going to evaluate the overall team, as well as >the individual player for that year and career. Not just >pick parts, or even a few games...or just at a certain >position...a turnover for example is a turnover. > >Skip, > >I understand what you are saying and can agree with you. >Many times earlier in the year, when people lost their >minds, I posted about the transition from HS ball to major >D-I ball...and that Lisch and Liddell were good recruits, >top 100...they were hyped as more than that unfairly by some >on the board. Surely they and IV have progressed a great >deal...and expectedly....that is why you recruit them. >Liddell for example isn't going to play 40 minutes a night, >every night...and certainly not against the big boys. That >makes Lisch and Polk the other options at point guard for >next seasona and the season after. While SLU has other well >documented needs...imo in order to be an NCAA competitive >team, they need another guy at the position. I will gladly >give you that with this current team, they have to put >Liddell there and get most touches through him in order to >succeed. > >As has been discussed by others, me etc..for months >now...SLU needs the other couple of areas as well....but >waiting until these gys' senior year, as was suggested, to >bring another pt guard, I think would be a mistake. > >No knock on a great win and nice momentum....but this >overall is about competing with the big boys, NCAA caliber >teams, not the Charlotte's or whoemover of the world to me. > >The expectation I listed before the season was NIT, and that >is what SLU is this year, an NIT team...they have 3 good >players. They need a few more. I even said, BS gets next >year and year after to make NCAA's...and he may do it next >year. If that is to happen, SLU must win quality >non-conference games, and more road games. > >The only other thing I would add is it is okay to compare >Frehsmen to other Freshmen out there and how they stack up. >Overall for example Liddell and Lisch have been exactly what >I expected...Lisch perhaps took longer to adjust to the >college game than many expected. Both are solid recruits. >IV has surprised many with his improvement, and it was >unexpected by many. > >Regardless of position, SLU needs to get a couple of "hits" >next year and year after to sustain momentum and improve. >You can't get to the next level, or next gear without >combining a couple of classes in a row. Lisch and Liddell >are good frosh, but not good enough to carry a limited team >to NCAA(unless win conference tourney) as frosh. > >The improvement is encouraging, but also expected. That is >why overall as a whole, they were recruited at the level >they were...very good recruits...who would progress over >their first year seeing a tonb of time. There are superstar >recruits who immediately adjust and have had better impacts >earlier....and on the other end, others who don't get much >pt and play smaller roles as frosh. > >Has Liddell improved at the pt and overall, sure. But I >also can't say what if this or what if that happened >differently...I find the improvement encouraging...as I >said, but I also take into consideration a long conference >schedule against very very few high quality teams too. >...meaning, it better get better...a little of that too. Do >I think SLU would have had some huge turnover games, big >problems handling the ball if a few big time opponents were >sprinkled in late....absolutely. 23-25 turnovers just a few >games ago v Temple at home for example...with more strength >on the ball it creates other opportunities. > >I'm talked out on the topic...I am down for depth at pt >guard besides shooters and an inside player. Why are we trying to jump from a 9 win team to a perennial NCAA tourney team in a couple years. It takes 5-10 years sustained winning seasons and solid recruiting to get to that level. Soderberg should just keep doing what he's doing, finding underrated bigs and developing them and continue to get the best the area has to offer. My only suggestion is close area borders if you can. Get your first pick. In 2008 and 2009 we have high MAJOR division 1 recruits. In 2009 we have 6'11 centers and 6'6 pgs, shooters, athletes. 2009 we have Griffey, a kid we've known about for a long-time, already offered before he played a high school game along with big man Richard Anderson who is a load, but plays on a balanced team. Plus Bryant Allen who is coached by former billiken players and McCluer guard Lonnie Boga. I'd much rather have a win/loss streak in non-conference and then tear through the world during conference play than vice-versa, that gets you nowhere. Brad has done an excellent job of squeezing every inch out of this team this season by putting Meyer at the 4 and Liddell at pg as a wiseman instructed on this board all summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 I can appreciate the enthusiasm. I have long held the general recruiting belief of recruiting inside out...meaning, Eastern MO, So ILL...then moving into central and No IL...Ark etc...and so forth...Chicago for example has plenty of players that can play...sure it is crowded...but there are always finds. If SLU does not make the NCAA's next year or year after...that will have been 6 years for Soderberg. And, like it or not he was on the previous staff too. I would agree it takes a while to build a perennial contender, a long while. My comments were mostly about just getting to the NCAA's next year or year after. One time. It won't happen this year with conf tourney title exception. Frankly, recruiting Liddell and Lisch saved Soderberg's job. Without them...SLU wouldn't have talented enough players...talented young players, frosh etc..get better by season's end...if they were avg or worse they wouldn't be getting better...just treading water which SLU has done a lot. Just having Lisch and Liddell, and IV for one more year, is NOT enough. Soderberg is getting paid good money to win big time college ball. Sure we can ll debate program commitment etc...and the bottom line is NCAA...NIT means very little in job security of big time college ball. I think people are encouraged...but SLU must find at least one recruit per year who can at least get off of the bench to give some quality minutes their first two years. The hope is SLU wil upgrade in overall talent, upgrade in role player talent etc...continue to produce one Liddelll caliber player a year. It isn't happening next year...so there better be one the year after. I agree it isn't easy, SLU has long had little tradition, little support, etc....and as much as people don't like to hear it,...style of play counts too....regularly scoring in the 70's would help BS' cause. The hope is SLU can get to the point of being a top A-10 team for a long time year in and year out...then hopefully aspire to bigger things. But a coach has to be held accountable. The vast majority of this board said SLU must make NCAA next year or year after or they want Brad gone. I created the poll myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 one thing we definitely agree on courtside is the need to continue to bring in difference makers. i fear this next recruiting class is going to be a bust. we have not heard of one player that is close to signing that can be curtis witherslike for the billikens. one would think the juco candidates out there would be dying for the opportunity to be the missing link with lisch, liddell, luke and ian. and those of you that are going to throw the inferred stemler, i aint buying. stemler is not our answer. another role player at best or if he is inserted, we are still a four guard lineup only he adds inches that drejaj doesnt present. of course he cant defend an ounce compared to drejaj either. as to the comment about lisch and liddell saving coach soderberg's job, reading between the lines, you act as though that was luck. that he never dreamed they were that good. fyi, he knew it, and went out and out hustled a lot of bigtime programs to get both. i.e. no luck at all. give the guy some credit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Roy, You misread my comments. I regularly have praised/given credit to Soderberg for this year's class. Look them up if you like. Didn't say it was luck by any means, and I regularly give him credit. He obviously has won virtually every year he has coached anywhere. His ability to coach doesn't concern me. Style of play, and whether he can recruit well enough at SLU were the concerns I think everyone had. I don't think the concerns have been completely answered yet, certianly not in one class...and style of play offensively still concerns many on this board. I will be one of the first people to post about high quality recruits when they happen, and have done so with these kids. Surely you have read many of my posts throughout the year. On side irrelevant note, he is a good guy and have volunteered I am rooting for him and have shared personal anectdotes of personal time I have spent with Brad. I have also held the administration accountable for a commitment to men's hoops, and have taken into consideration SLU has very little hoops tradition. That comment might sting some people, but it is true. My comments were in response to Vtime's post....meaning...let's say BS doesn't get those two kids, and instead had a class similar to past years...he would be on the ropes with his job, because the team would be below .500 and doing poorly. That is fair to say. And it is also fair to give him credit for the efforts in getting them and actually getting them. I have said many many times BEFORE Liddell and Lisch began this year that they were an upgrade, top 100 kids etc...and so on..and have continued that. I even asked for people's patience with them early because very few players...top 50 or better caliber maybe...can immediately play well and get time as frosh. Mistakes will be made and corrected the first year...and possibly the 2nd. I never insinuated Soderberg's recruitment of those kids was luck. I merely said they saved his job...which is a bit much sure....but I was emphasizing a point to Vtime. And the point was this isn't high school ball or small level ball or a non-revenue sport. Stakes are higher for men's basketball at SLU, or at least they should be. That is what I was saying. I actually would go as far as telling you perhaps....perhaps....to be a little patient because if you look around at other programs Roy,....it is tough to turn something around and have difference maker recruits EACH year....especially at a school like SLU to this point.....SLU has NOT built Jack Squat yet...so I defintely expect there to be some hits and misses the next several years...no question. This isn't UNC. Soderberg will definitely have to get some better results from role players. Eventually over time...this is something I can in small part agree with V-time....SLU can become a perennial player. That won't happen in next few years. Don't be too concerned yet...now if the following year contains zero high quality top 100 (I hate using that phrase...but you get what I mean)...then the concern is SLU would be still a NIT level team. And I said, if two more years of no NCAA after this one...that would be a major concern. If SLU wins conf tourney and makes it this year...rightly or wrongly it changes a lotof things for Brad in his favor, and it will be deserved imo. The first goal is to make the NCAA's....and when it happens...it won't be happening EVERY year or even most year's at first...at least that is what is likely...always possible. I speak from the base of what it wakes to make the NCAA's and then what it takes to sustain it as a regular thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTIME Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 >one thing we definitely agree on courtside is the need to >continue to bring in difference makers. i fear this next >recruiting class is going to be a bust. we have not heard >of one player that is close to signing that can be curtis >witherslike for the billikens. one would think the juco >candidates out there would be dying for the opportunity to >be the missing link with lisch, liddell, luke and ian. > >and those of you that are going to throw the inferred >stemler, i aint buying. stemler is not our answer. another >role player at best or if he is inserted, we are still a >four guard lineup only he adds inches that drejaj doesnt >present. of course he cant defend an ounce compared to >drejaj either. > >as to the comment about lisch and liddell saving coach >soderberg's job, reading between the lines, you act as >though that was luck. that he never dreamed they were that >good. fyi, he knew it, and went out and out hustled a lot >of bigtime programs to get both. i.e. no luck at all. give >the guy some credit as well. Stemler will be a huge upgrade at the forward position able to play either, and you say he cant defend, but I'm sure Brad can work with him on that or maybe has to save his energy at SWIC because he has to do so much. Also, KL, LM and TL all defend, so Stemler not being Ben Wallace wont hurt us that much. He's worked too hard to get to this point that he will show maximum effort on defense. He worked from unrecruited to D1 fought back from injuries, ended up back at JUCO and fought his way back JUC0 All American and division 1 status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Stemler is an upgrade for sure - right now we have a guard playing the position (LM). He has done a creditable job - no complaints but to have some one 6'8" who can actually physicallt post up a team's opposing PF and one who can actually score from inside and out is an upgrade - V is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 but vtime, if stemler is only a shooter and a mediocre at best defender and rebounder, we dont gain a thing. we might as well continue to play luke meyer at pf and slip brown into drejaj's spot. that is the point. for us to move up and play at a higher level, we need a power forward to rebound and defend other power forwards. we dont need another sf/wing disguised as a pf in height only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 cheeseman said, "who can actually physicallt post up a team's opposing PF and one who can actually score from inside." you guys are going to be disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikan Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 I had no idea that you were a former coach. If you are, then you can see how Tommie "sees the court" better than anyone on the team. He is extremely tough to guard off the dribble and he is our best passer into the post. he has become a very good on ball defender and his height and athletic ability cause problems on both ends. he can rebound and start the fast break. He has good chemistry with our other star freshman. I regularly tape the games and watch them again and break down the play. If you do the same I cannot imagine that you cannot see Tommie's abilities as a point guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Roy, correct me if I am wrong but did you not say earlier that Stemler was a taller Chris Sloan? Sloan had no problem putting a body on the other team's PF. If Stemler can give us 20 minutes of hard play, he has to be better than playing Luke as a PF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 I agree that we need to continue to get classes with freshmen that are good enough to play and help as freshmen. If we don't get a good class this year to follow up KL and TL I will be dissapointed. I think a pg who is a freshmen during TL's sr year should be the goal. A top notch pg doesn't need 2 years in the system. Tommie and Kevin are better than solid recruits. They are not 1 and done recruits ... but they are star quality ... but I guess it depends on your definition of solid Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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