SLU Soccer - Off With Donnigan's Head

[thetorch]

SLU for the first time in the history of the NCAA soccer tourney has not amde it in consecutive years. This is a disgrace. St. Louis is the soccer capital of the nation. While others have caught up to us in level of play the St. Louis area still sends a dozen or more D-1 level players out each year from the HS ranks. At one time SLU dominated the local scene picking and choosing from among the top local players and then adding some of the best talent in the antion along with it. Our hold locally is tenuous at best as numerous big time players have moved on and had greater success at out of state schools. Meanwhile our national recruiting has taken a hit as well.

Of course we have been hit hard with losses to the pros, Vedad, John, Ward, but it has shown the big holes in recruiting we have. Donigan seems to have a great class once every 3 or 4 years. That just doesn't cut it. We need top players coming into the system every year and there is no excuse we don't have it with all the top players right in our backyard.

Let's not downgrade the talent we do have. John D and company are a top 25 team on paper. On the field though we have been mediocre and agaisnt the top competition we have been dominated. The A-10 should have been a cakewalk. No one in that league comes close to the caliber of players we have, yet we are playing for ties in the regular season and being defeated by an inferior team on our own field in the tournament.

What do we want from teh SLU program? Regardless of outside circumstances SLU has no reason not to win the A-10, make the NCAAs, be a top 15 year in year out and compete for NCAA championships on a semi regualr basis. This has not happened at all during Donnigan's tenure. Player development, Game play, and recruiting have all gone downhill under Donnigan's watch.

There isn't a handful of coaches in the nation who would turn down a chance to coach at SLU. In 5 years this may not be true. Levick has to make an important decision here. Keeping Donnigan is settling for mediocrity. Unfortunately SLU has a history of doing just that. This is the one great sports tradition SLU has. Lets not flush it down the toilet because we are cheap and lazy. Sack up and get a great coach in here, who will tie up the local scene, recruit sucessfully on a national level, and bring SLU a Natl Championship.

[TheGoat]

While I partially agree with you, look at what he has brought to the table recruiting wise: Dipsy, Vedad, John, Ward, along with many other talents both past and present. Are we to punish him for 3 of these guys to leave early? Imagine what this year's team would have done with Vedad and John wreaking havoc in the A-10. Not to mention the health issues with GK this year. Kudos for him to go get Sackman and essentially save the season. Not saying that he shouldn't be held accountable for the season, but not sure his head should roll....yet.

[slufanskip]

How do you figure he has a great class every 3 or 4 years?

Last 3 classes.

Vedad, Johhny D, Brian G, Will John, Alex M, Mo Benne, This wasn't a great class, it was an incredible class. The problem is that 3 of the top 4 of them didn't play for the Bills this year. Vedad and Will to the Pro's and Brian G to a season ending injury. Hard to blame DD for that. Put those 3 on the field and we are playing long into the tourney.

Next class ... Tim W, Pat D and Brandon G. plus a few lesser players. Tim W alone makes this a very good to great class. Did you see him play. Problem ... Tim W gone to the pro's. Pat D hurt all year. No knock on Sackman he gives his best and sacrificed alot this year to be there for the team ... but if Disbennet is in goal we are in the tourney ... forget everyone else ... Again 1 out of 3 on the field this year. Out of these 2 years ... 2 out of the top 7 recruits played this year ... none of that was within the control of DD. I'm not talking about him failing to replace graduating seniors ... I'm talking about players that he expected to be playing for him this year.

This years class ... Dado, Calum A, Sweet, Larry G and Kyle P. ... this could be a great class ... the problem is that due to the losses above these guys were pushed into playing significant roles as freshmen. Yes freshmen can contribute and the great ones can make a difference their frosh year ... but it is much easier when surrounded by top notch players ... these guys were surrounded by other freshmen.

Think about the team we should have been fielding.

Forwards - Vedad, John, Wileman, Kyle P, Larry G

Midfield - Johnny D, Brian G, Danny W, Alex M, Dado, Sweet,

Backs - Tim W, Mo Benne, Brandon G, Calum A, Guffey, Vilmer.

Keeps - Pat D, Greathouse.

The freshmen this year ... that played would have been support players. Dado and Calum would have gotten major minutes, but thats it. Both those players would have looked better also if they had been surrounded by the other players.

I agree we need a big time scorer ... I think Dado is the center mid we need ... I also think if healthy Brian G could be the guy.

We have been hit by an incredible amount of bad luck ... (if you count 3 players going pro as bad luck)

Donnigan has recruited well every year he deserves time to get us back on track ... and I for one believe he will.

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[HenryB]

How is recruiting shaping up for next year? Any possible transfers heading this way?

[tseugnekillib]

the torchman said...."St. Louis is the soccer capital of the nation"...., that statement is going to be news to current college fans, players and coaches around the country!

the torchman said....."John D and company are a top 25 team on paper"...., right, that's why SLU went winless against GWU, LaSalle and Charlotte at the end of the A-10 conference season. All three of these teams had losing records! Systems don't win games, it's players making plays that wins games.

Relax, SLU soccer will be back and soon. Donigan will get a few key players and I trust his (and his players) approach to the A-10 will be different next season. It's time to reload and get to work!

[slufanskip]

I don't know ... I don't really have time to follow HS games. I know we got the one kid from Priory ... but I have heard conflicting stories on how good he is, problem is both of the people I heard from are people who's opinion I would trust. My understanding is he has had tremendous HS success but not against the best competition. So he could turn out very good or not.

DD has brought very good players in every year, so I will assume he will do the same this year. Our biggest losses are Danny Wynn and Ryan Wileman. We also lose Moses and Sackman. I hope we can get a big time keeper as Disbennet has not shown that he can stay healthy.

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[slufanskip]

I just wonder how a guy who only has a great recruiting class once every 3-4 years and loses the players we lost to the pro's and to injury could have top 25 talent. If after we lose what we lost in terms of players the last 2 years we still have top 25 talent ... then I would say we have had some damn good recruiting classes.

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[SLUBALLS]

Good breakdown skip. I've thought about this issue a lot and the way you wrote it out just makes me sick to think what we had two years ago. I'm with Donigan through thick and thin.

There are rumors of some blue chip st. louis guys transferring but its all speculation. Right now they have Jimmy Holmes out of Priory, Tim Reams out of St. Dom's (I think that's the school), and another guy out of DeSmet...Aranda (sp?)..who sounds like a midfielder in the McKee-sense..

[courtside]

Do I even have to reply to this thread? sigh.

All I will add for Skip is the missing name of David Peplinski to be added. High School All-American, had a knee problem, and unfortunately got into some off field trouble. He was highly recruited by top schools, a great get, came from great background, was coached by former teammate of Donigan's. It was unexpected he would get into trouble. He has since transferred to New Mexico and plays a lot for the current top 3 Lobos.

As for recruits, I just haven't seen Holmes play recently. From all accounts is is a "player," and dramatically improved. But we are talking about SLU being a top 25 or better team. I think it is safe to say Holmes could have played big school STL area soccer and done well...but a lot of kids from big time STL club teams and high school teams ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH to play big time college soccer.

Josh Aranda out of DeSmet was mentioned. Skilled, tough, hard nosed midfielder, a leader, captain as an underclassmen in past, something unheard of at a place like DeSmet,... lacks height, but physically stong unlike a Dado or Sweetin. He was also looking at Harvard and a couple of others. He is definitely good enough to play for SLU. He isn't a Frosh difference maker, but will eventually be a starter and good player. If he were 6 feet plus, he'd really be something immediate. I would say Aranda/McKee comparisons aren't too bad, though I think Aranda can do more things than Cooper.

[thetorch]

I don't like that North County jab. North County has the best athletes in Missouri bar none. No area comes close. Take your elitist view back to south of 40.

St. Louis is the soccer capital. A few other places, cali, florida, produce a few more players but per capita St. Louis has the best quality soccer in the coutry hands down. There is a reason why our HS and Club teams are year in year out the top in the country.

How can you count guys who left the schools as great recruits? I am not begrudging them leaving for the pros if they are good enough but you are sugarcoating the big problem. Donnigan has turned into the soccer version of John Calipari. Gets huge recruits, who 1. never play at all or 2. play one year and don't get us anywhere. This trend has turned good recruiting classes into bad ones.

I also don't see the other top schools with this problem. Maybe a reason why are getting these highly touted one and out recruits are the good schools are ignoring them and building their programs with players who will stay for the 4 years.

SLU is still regarded as NCAA soccer royalty. It still is a great job to have. 3 years from now when we haven't made the NCAAs in 5 years will it be like that? We have an oppurtunitty now to attract the top coaches in the country. The Donnigan era should end. The elvel of play by the soccer team may be more in line with the rest of SLU athletics success level now but it shouldn't be like that. We should be getting alot more out of the program than Donnigan has given us.

[slufanskip]

You are right ... Dan should have been able to see the future and know these kids were going to leave.

We want the same thing SLU to be a top 10 soccer team year in and year out. We just differ in our assessment of DD. You basically said he couldn't recruit. Just look at the players he has brought in, you are wrong. You also said we had top 25 talent on the field this year, well if we had top 25 talent considering who left and our injuries ... then how can you say he can't recruit.

It looks to me like you are upset at the results ... but don't really know much about the team. How many games have you seen?

I have questions about the style we play considering the talents of the players on the field ... but I think DD deserves a chance to get it back to where it should be. I also believe he will.

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[courtside]

First of all, I grew up in both North County and West County, and have relatives in South County, so I can take all comers on this one.

I have to ignore ignorant comments like which part of town has better athletes than others....athletes are anywhere and everywhere, period.

I would disagree with Torch's assessment that STL is still some sort of soccer capital. If STL was soccer royalty, why did teams with arguably a worse 2005 resume get into the NCAA tourney this year and not SLU???

STL still produces good talent in soccer, better than many other areas, but in no way shape or form is there a monopoly of players in STL vs other areas. There are areas just as good as STL...and, do to some other markets' MUCH larger size, there is a lot more depth in other areas.

One needs support to back up discussion. Okay...why isn't there ONE kid currently from STL in the younger age national team pool of players, U-17, U-18...the only ones who were in U-20 PLAYED AT SLU. I also would say, go look at a roster for the top 5 or 10 ranked college teams in America, and look at the hometowns. Look at UNC, UVA, etc...the kids are from Carolina, MD, VA. Look at Cal not a single kid from outside of CA on the roster....and so on and so on. There are plenty of teams out there doing it regionally. There are also teams out there with more of a national following and more diverse geographies as well. IU is typical this way ND, etc..some times.

When Bob Warming and others coached SLU, Pat Noonan and Chris Klein still chose Indiana. When Joey Clarke coached, Kevin Grimes still chose SMU, Tim Hudson as well went there.

I would definitely argue with a lot of facts to support me that STL area gets a handful of immediate impact, college difference makers each year, and NO more than that...some years it may be more on good years. STL does have good depth of quality players, but not players who will be top 10 top 20 star difference makers.

Look at teams, ...take a Chaminade, DeSmet, SLUH, CBC which most recently have by far had the best hs teams in STL. Vianney is coming back but fell off for a while after being exceptional prior to that. This year, DeSmet for example has exactly 3 good players to the level that can play at a SLU level....and that may only be two, one of which is only a Soph...look at SLUH, same thing....CBC and Chaminade have had the most talent in recent years because al the Gallagher kids go to CBC and Fusz kids go to Chaminade....look at Danny Wynn, Cooper Mckee both went to SLU....both good solid players, who in high school, played on mythical national title teams. They were the best of the best, Mckee went from high school scoring machine, to defensive midfielder, a solid good one, but he wasn't good enough to be a forward at SLU. Wynn has improved each year and has had a fine career at SLU...but even he needed a year or two to get playing time. TJ Novak is reigning MO high school player of the year, he couldn't start as Frosh at Stanford, who had losing record past few seasons. He did play a lot and he will be a very good player....

All of the above mentioned have good to very good players...etc...no question....but I am telling you, there is a difference between having a solid college career at middle of the road state...and being a top 10 or 20 team...or level player....it is hard stuff.

So, how good would SLU be if they got all local kids? One, that just isn't going to happen. The days where every kid wants to stay home for college left in the 1970's. Welcome to 2005.

So take one of the above examples, DeSmet, SLU got Matt McKeon, Craig Corbett, a couple of great ones, but didn't get Noonan, Klein, Ambersley, all going to IU. And in plenty of other years, they don't have anybody good enough to play at that level of school. This is the same at other places too.

Joe Germanese from SLUH is at Vanderbilt, a non-soccer school, and would a starting forward at SLU, he wanted to go away and find a different fit. Some will stay, some will go....sure Donigan needs to get a few more elite ones to stay...but he also needs to get elite ones from elsewhere too, and not just good ones. A lot of the Texas kids he recruited haven't turned out to be much. He has had better success with a few good transfers, Brannan, Wick, Hutton, etc...from top schools.

What I would ask Torch, or AJ or some others....how much do you see of other college soccer teams each year...in person, tv, or tape....? not against SLU? And how much youth club ball so you see?

Take Chicago for no reason in particular, they have excellent club teams, multiple two ior three really strong ones, like a Gallagher or STL Soccer or Fusz. And Chicago didn't produce that kind of talent in the 80's or even 90's...it has changed dramatically. Soccer is good everywhere. Sure some areas like STL have more depth, but CA, Tx, Mid-Atlantic, NY/NJ/Ct, areas have that depth too. And almost any area has a handful of top kids. STL area just has more of the very good solid players than a lot of areas...that doesn't mean all are good enough to play on top 10 or 20 teams.

If SLU got every great player to stay home, sure they would be very good, but it is insulting to everywhere else to think they would automatically steam roll people too.

Soccer is still not the same as coaching hoops or bigger revenue sports and shouldn't be...Sure STL job is different and I would agree. If you recruit kids who leave early and go on to be successful pro players, it should be taken into consideration as part of your success. Donigan was recruiting high level kids, and he got unlucky with a bunch unexpectedly leaving early. And a few others with injuries who haven't panned out. Anyone on here knows he does not get a free pass with me, but let's be fair. Kids also didn't leave early in the past...let's stop living in the past.

Now, a better discussion would be style of play, or if you even wanted compare how STL kids who went elsewhere are doing now.

I can think of Ambersley, Germanese, ...maybe a Novak or McKee, maybe the kid at Northwestern...a few others...who are in a 4 year Frosh through Senior window right now from STL who are playing on a different college team than SLU ...who are any good at all. Please help me fill in the rest Torch. Where are they?

[bluecrewfinance]

let's all remember the timing of Vedad's departure...two or three weeks before the 2004 season...a complete blindside move that came well after recruiting was finished. When he left, the focus of the scoring shifted to Will John, who was probably not ready for the physical pounding that he took in that role...

As for Will, he also surprised the team by leaving last spring...Ward's intent to leave after last season was apparent while the team was still playing in the fall, but Will's departure came as a shock to the AD, again putting a kink in the plans...

I personally find it hard to fault a guy who has lost his two top scorers before graduation, especially when they leave late in (or after) the recruiting cycle...

[SLUBALLS]

Pic of Holmes currently on this website: http://www.stlsoccer.net/

Courtside, you know what number Aranda is? that Stldigital.com site that is referenced in the above site has a ton of pics from all the high school games this year.

[courtside]

Aranda's #...at DeSmet ...I want to say "10" going off of memory.

[SLUBALLS]

I thought so since the #10 I sw in a pic resemebled what you had described him as.

[courtside]

There isn't any one player whom he resembles to me...maybe a combination of Jackie Jewsbury and McKee. He won't be playing forward or up top. But he will quietly, with tenacity, and steadily control the midfield and he brings more skill than some others. His high school team plays a tight system, not wide open like CBC or somebody else. He is capable of finishing from the midfield position. He could either be an attacking midfielder or defensive midfielder. Very cerebral player as well. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't come in and get time immediately at SLU off the bench, eventually starting. IMO, as I said, DeSmet produces a couple of kids each that can play at a major D-I level. Now, with any kid making the transition, the first year is always the challenge, not sure how long it will take him to make an impact, but he will make one. Great character, etc...Zero concerns about him as a recruit.

[SLUBALLS]

Sorry I might have confused someone else's comments about the Aranda (sp) with you. There's a lot of discussion going on www.bigsoccer.com and www.stlsoccer.net regarding Donigan and SLU.

By the way Skip, I copied over your post outlining the recruiting classes to those boards because I thought it was a good overview and explanation.