St. Louis Area Hoops Is Pretty Mediocre

[aj_arete]

Especially when you compare it to Memphis, Chicago and Milwaukee. I know VTime will attack this thread, but I support this contention with facts.

For one, UMSL has relied on local talent, but has been quite mediocre for a long time. You mention Jonathan Griffin and while he scored a decent amount of points, he was never on any All-GLVC conference teams. True, McKendree has had their share of success, but they haven't won any championships in NAIA.

Now we have had some special players from the area, specifically Larry Hughes, Chris Carrawell and Loren Woods. However, it drops off dramatically after that. Then you look at the minor league teams in the USBL and we've failed miserably, even when we had a legend (Floyd Irons) coaching them. Why did Irons fail? It's because he placed too much focus mining local talent. Now there was one exception of minor league team that did well and that was the St. Louis Swarm. By the way, their talent came from non-local talent. Yeah, Erwin Claggett had a cup of coffee with them, but he never stood out.

I'm sorry, but if I'm going to focus on the tweeners and risks, I'd rather do it in Milwaukee, Memphis or even Southern Illinois than in St. Louis.

Please don't misunderstand me. St. Louis does have some elite talent and I'm excited about Lisch and Liddell. However, I'm glad that Brad is expanding his recruiting base beyond St. Louis. Go ahead, VTIME... attack this post...

[thetorch]

Its been worse here. St. Louis is improving. The difference is depth, we consistently have decent top players. Our AAU teams compete admirably at a national level.

[tseugnekillib]

It appears to me that the metro St. Louis area runs hot and cold in producing academically eligible major D1 players. One year there will be three top D1 players, and then in each of the next two years there is only one quality academically eligible D1 player. The irregular production of quality mid-to-high D1 (academically eligible) post-players is really a problem.

[aj_arete]

For the academically challenged, you have the JUCO option. Let's not assume that St. Louis is the only urban district with academic problems. Milwaukee, Chicago and Memphis both have similar, if not worse problems. Please correct me because I don't follow the JUCOs that much, but how many JUCO All-Americans have come out of the St. Louis area?

I seem to recall an Alexander from Hazelwood being one a decade ago and he ended up at Alabama. Are there any others? I thought Kern would light up the JUCOs, but he didn't dominate and left at the first sign of adversity.

As thetorch confirmed along with me, the problem with St. Louis is depth. It's crazy to think SLU might be missing the boat on marginal Div I players in St. Louis. If that was the case, we'd see these players prospering at lower levels.

[courtside]

I really don't think it matters where you get your kids. I do think it helps to establish your program form the inside out, meaning starting in your own area, and surrounding states and get a foot hold, then move out when you start building a program. It is definitely easier to sell a local or surrounding state kid. Why would a kid from somehwere else go to SLU if he could go to a good team near his home, or another national program with more recent and current success? Tough to get those, and it is not productive to do that. See Lorenzo Romar, recruiting stud. I think ideally you want to get kids from the 8 states taht border Missouri first. Unless you have a connection elsewhere. Kids nowadays choose schools for the coaching staff more than anything else. Now, Chicago for example has a lot of depth of talent, not far from STL, no reason can't come up with a few Marquee Perry's of the world. Dillard coaches a top public high league team there, etc....SLU should have a foot hold in S Il as well. You have to build relationships with the AAU circuit, use connections, etc...recruiting is a tough business. But you need to go with the best player and best fit regardless of where they are from. Ideally SLU will re-establish the surrounding area, where kids will have an interest in SLU themselves, instead of SLU having to beat down the door just to get a sniff. Moving to the A-10, eventually SLU will get some kids out East...hopefully.

The STL area doesn't have a lot of depth, that is true. I remember when Jon Harris was post-dispatch player of the year. So there are definitely some lean years for top talent. Kids play other sports more and more, so competition is as tough as ever for good players. As long as SLU played well, I don't think anybody on here cares where the kids come from. But you do have to build local ties and when appropriate take local kids. I have always said, if there is an elite level player, only elite level, and they are a great character kid, but don't have the grades, once in a while you have to take a chance on them. I don't think it would be a good habit to get into, but definitely for the special kid.

The current recruiting of a few local kids with talent is a good sign...but the key is to follow up immediately with another strong group...to have success, you really need back to back strong classes.

[aj_arete]

who are the other players in this class where we can see them having an impact on some level of the NCAA? I also believe you are knowledgeable about Milwaukee hoops. How does St. Louis' class compare with Milwaukee this year?

[VTIME]

The top players in St. Louis usually dont qualify academically. We have however had several that have like Robert Archibald who was drafted by the Memphis Grizzlies a couple years ago. Dan Oppland is an all-conference player at Valpo. Darren Brooks represented St. Louis well, making it out of the first round of the NCAA Tournament 3 of his 4 years and winning the conference every year. The winningest guard in the conference's history. Jermaine Blackburn just finished up at Boise State. Curtis Marshall just finished at Texas Tech. Diamond Gladney just finished at Ohio. Ed Glass is at Ole Miss. David Lee just finished at Florida. Corey Simms just finished at Nebraska. The St. Louis area high school coverage done by the Post-Dispatch covers teams in Illinois. Lisch and Liddell were apart of that area. The area produces nice players and every 2 or 3 years we have an NBA prospect. Larry Hughes 1998 draft (eighth pick), Jahidi White 1998 NBA draft, Loren Woods 2001 Draft, Robert Archibald 2002 Draft. David Lee just finished up a nice career at Florida. SLU should be able to recruit outside out St. Louis to at least the borders of Missouri which have produced talents like The Rush Bros. and Tyler Hansborough. I HAVE NO IDEA WHY SLU DIDNT SIGN DARREN BROOKS. He was an outstanding QB, PG, AND PITCHER/OUTFIELDER

[tseugnekillib]

problack.....300+ D1 schools passed on Darren Brooks. The story I recall reading stated that Darren had one offer....from Morris Brown University in Atlanta, until SIU-C came by in the Spring of his senior year and offered him a remaining scholarship. If SIU-C knew what a jewel of a player that Brooks was going to be....they would have signed him in the prior November. SIU-C took a chance and hit the jackpot! (I believe Brooks redshirted his first year at SIU-C.)

I believe Brooks had a broken wrist during his junior-senior summer which prevented him from playing AAU ball with the Eagles.

problack, now you have a reason why SLU and 300+ other D1 schools missed on Brooks.

[aj_arete]

For one, Chicago, Milwaukee and Memphis have PLENTY of talented players, who don't hack it academically. Do you really think the St. Louis area schools are worse than many major cities? If so, you're wrong. Anyway, that's what the JUCO route is for. If they don't want to go to JUCO, like Nicholas Kern, you have the USBL, ABA and other minor leagues as options. While it's unfortunate that Kern was shot, he still didn't light up the USBL despite the ridiculous hype heaped on him by St. Louis management. Please explain why Floyd Irons couldn't win in the USBL and why he was FORCED to recruit nonlocal players to even be respectable??

Archibald spent one year in St. Louis and came from Scotland. Why count him? Do you really think Milwaukee and Memphis players are frightened at the sight of Blackburn, Marshall and Simms?

As for Oppland, SLU coveted him, but they weren't willing to take his brother as a packaged deal. As for Brooks, the fact that he was a PROMINENT baseball player hurt his recruiting from a basketball standpoint. He didn't play AAU ball and Romar made a mistake there, along with other major college programs.

Now I agree that St. Louis occasionally had some elite talent, but we're talking about depth. SLU will not always be able to get the best in St. Louis, just like Marquette, DePaul and Memphis aren't always going to get the most talented players in their cities. The difference is that their second-tier players are so much BETTER than St. Louis.

[billiken_roy]

the archibald scenario is a strange one. if my memory serves me correctly, spoon had already committed his last scholarship to chris braun when archibald came to lafeyette from scotland and porter adv spoon he was interested. there was nothing spoon could do unless it was to renege or run someone off. and even then, the stupid 8/5 rule probably would have killed that.

as said before, romar wanted dan oppland badly. however the oplands made sure it was known it was a package deal. package deals are typically not good deals. amazingly, mike oppland left valpo then left truman state. so we can see how that would have been. plus, who can forget the "package deal" spoon tried to do for the robertson bros. in the end we got troy and not ryan. while troy did a good job as a role player, i am sure spoon would have taken that package deal back in a second had he known that troy was coming by himself.

the brooks situation is an example of someone that just blossumed. i am trying to remember where he fell vs the billiken recruiting class. i guess it would have been with edwin, mcclain and sloan? while i agree that brooks without a doubt turned out better than all three, at the time, i too would have taken edwin, mcclain and sloan ahead of brooks 5 years ago. who knows how a player is going to progress.

[VTIME]

Those 300+ schools werent in St. Louis. Thats not an excuse for SLU. He averaged 25 ppg on a good Jennings team. Jennings has had 3 other D1 players since Brooks graduated (Mike English, Travis Wallace, Ed Glass. Could SLU keep an eye on talent they have as well. I understand passing on Akins, I don't even know why Nebraska offered him, but passing on Watts is a mistake. A four-year starter and leading scorer.

[billiken_roy]

watts has to show more out court skills imo before i would offer him. until then to bank on a 6'4" 200 lb pf because he excels at small high school where he is typically playing against high school 6'2" inside players would be suicide. sure jeff harris and donnie dobbs succeeded. but they were far far physically stronger. plus, they didnt contribute at slu until their junior years.

the brooks thing is ridiculous to discuss anymore. we all agree that having brooks would have been a positive rather than the three recruits that slu did sign that year. however, anyone that looks back to that fall and believes that as of that november that jason edwin, chris sloan and floyd mcclain would not be better than brooks is lying or at least suffering from a bad case of poor memory.

[Box and Won]

Can you imagine the outrage on this board had we signed a kid whose only other offer came from Morris Brown College?

Sometimes schools just get lucky. It would have been great to have him, but sometimes players fall through the cracks. Let's move on.