OT Rams draft Michael Sam

[MB73]

My point RE: The Heisman Trophy is that there are so many "defensive or offensive players of the year" in so many conferences that did not get drafted that stating one fact, that Sam was "D" Player of the Year in the SEC is not as absolute as being couched.

These awards do not necessarily translate to NFL ability. We see it in college hoops, too.

Most all credible analysts and services and numerous NFL scouts said he is too small for DE (263lbs), too slow for OLB, and weak, an embarrassing bench press total (14?) at the combine.

His sacks were a random occurrence, 9 of his 11 1/2 were against avg./bad teams (Ark St, VD, and FLA when they had numerous starters out).

So just saying "when was the last time an SEC "D" player of the year wasn't drafted is not a sufficient argument.

• Sam said that all the NFL people knew before he announced it publicly. So why did he announce it?
• So Sam was putting pressure on the NFL instead of putting his head down and playing ball and gaining muscle and speed.
• He is putting pressure on his teammates, coaches, the league, everybody, and he is rewarded with celebrity, fame, is being called courageous, even though there are numerous other gay football players.
• Oh, he signed a deal with Visa already. So he will get disproportionate endorsements. Late night TV?

I say that the NFL HAD to draft him or face boycotts, media pressure, protests, you name it, so somebody had to draft him. Somehow, the Rams were chosen or volunteered when pressed.

Look what happened to the CEO at the IT company that donated money against California Prop 8, 5-6 years ago. Forced to resign. WHOA NFL did not want that kind of a mess.

It is OK with me what he is but I do not like that the boycott mentality and threats made in our society on matters like this affect outcomes. A bigger stronger faster player may not have been picked when Sam was picked because of these fears.

There were other gay players that were drafted ahead of him, ya think?

There are other gay players on the Rams now, ya think?

So why is this guy such a big deal? He made a choice.

The politics of social justice, there will be tremendous pressure on so many people now that was not necessary. It will be a circus. Michael Sam profits. Others lose.

[moytoy12]

"When the Associated Press selected Sam as a first-team All-American on Tuesday, he became the 12th Tiger football player and only the third on defense to win consensus All-American honors."

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/12/17/4698737/missouri-defensive-end-michael.html

Yep, he was selected solely to avoid a media nightmare for the NFL.

It must suck to live in your world, MB, where all these good-for-nothing gays and blacks only get positive press as a result of their social status. Thankfully, your position fits nicely within the disregarded extreme.

[AlumniFan]

"When the Associated Press selected Sam as a first-team All-American on Tuesday, he became the 12th Tiger football player and only the third on defense to win consensus All-American honors."

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/12/17/4698737/missouri-defensive-end-michael.html

Yep, he was selected solely to avoid a media nightmare for the NFL.

It must suck to live in your world, MB, where all these good-for-nothing gays and blacks only get positive press as a result of their social status. Thankfully, your position fits nicely within the disregarded extreme.

That's really twisting his words. I am no fan of MB, but he stated an opinion based NOT on the kid's sexual preference but primarily based on his performance. He never said nor implied anyone was a "good-for-nothing". And there have been plenty of people outside of this forum debating privately and publicly the idea that Sam's publicly coming out may have done him more harm than good (especially since it was apparently already known by NFL scouts) so MB is hardly putting forth a truly controversial or offensive position. And after what has happened to Dan Cathy, Brendan Eich, David and Jason Benham, et al, a person would be really naive to suggest that this is not a highly sensitive topic for the NFL that may have influenced decision making.

I really wish the mods would step in and just stop these totally off-topic threads. There are literally thousands of other boards and venues to discuss these issues so it is not like keeping BILLIKENS.COM to Billikens related issues would squelch freedom of expression. And the animosity which is always created by these topics has, for over a decade, carried over to the regular Billiken's discussion.

Now, what typically happens is a few certain posters will twist my words and say that I'm "on the wrong side of history", that I'm racist, that I'm an angry old white man at my advanced age (that part is always amusing), and so on and so on.

[moytoy12]

That's really twisting his words. I am no fan of MB, but he stated an opinion based NOT on the kid's sexual preference but primarily based on his performance. He never said nor implied anyone was a "good-for-nothing". And there have been plenty of people outside of this forum debating privately and publicly the idea that Sam's publicly coming out may have done him more harm than good (especially since it was apparently already known by NFL scouts) so MB is hardly putting forth a truly controversial or offensive position. And after what has happened to Dan Cathy, Brendan Eich, David and Jason Benham, et al, a person would be really naive to suggest that this is not a highly sensitive topic for the NFL that may have influenced decision making.

I really wish the mods would step in and just stop these totally off-topic threads. There are literally thousands of other boards and venues to discuss these issues so it is not like keeping BILLIKENS.COM to Billikens related issues would squelch freedom of expression. And the animosity which is always created by these topics has, for over a decade, carried over to the regular Billiken's discussion.

Now, what typically happens is a few certain posters will twist my words and say that I'm "on the wrong side of history", that I'm racist, that I'm an angry old white man at my advanced age (that part is always amusing), and so on and so on.

MB's posts on social matters speak for themselves. His posts on the current topic are most definitely based on the kid's sexual preference. Heck, taking MB's football related discussion to be true, the kid was taken about where all of MB's experts thought he would be, to wit, late 7th round/free agent signing. Yet, in the same breath MB says Sam was only selected because of some explicit and/or implicit politically correct pressure on the NFL.

[brianstl]

When the facts do not help MB73, he chooses to change the subject. The Heisman Trophy is irrelevant to this discussion. Heisman winners are disproportionately awarded to QBs of National Title contenders. Often times the QBs of the best teams do not project as NFL QBs.

Fact: No SEC defensive player of the year has ever gone undrafted.

They started giving separate offensive and defensive awards in 2003. Here are the players to have won the award.

2003: Chad Lavalais, Drafted 2004, 5th round, 142 overall

2004: David Pollack, Drafted 2005, 1st round, 17 overall

2005: DeMeco Ryans, Drafted 2006, 2nd round, 33 overall

2006: Patrick Willis, Drafted 2007, 1st round, 11 overall

2007: Glenn Dorsey, Drafted 2008, 1st round, 5 overall

2008: Eric Berry, Drafted 2010, 1st round, 5 overall

2009: Rolando McClain, Drafted 2010, 1st round, 8 overall

2010: Nick Fairley, Drafted 2011, 1st round, 13 overall

2011: Morris Claiborne, Drafted 2012, 1st round, 6 overall

2012 (Coaches): Jadeveon Clowney, Drafted 2014, 1st round, 1 overall

2012 (AP): Jarvis Jones, Drafted 2013, 1st round, 17 overall

2013 (Coaches): C. J. Mosley, Drafted 2014, 1st round, 17 overall

2013 (AP): Michael Sam, Drafted 2014, 7th round, 249 overall

Prior to 2003, there was only 1 SEC player of the year award, and it almost always went to an offensive player. Here are the defensive players to win SEC player of the year, with their NFL draft position.

2002: David Pollack, Drafted 2005, 1st round, 17 overall

1988: Tracy Rocker, Drafted 1989, 3rd round, 66 overall

1983: Reggie White, Drafted 1984 supplemental draft (for USFL players), 1st round, 4 overall

1968: Jake Scott, Drafted 1970, 7th round, 159 overall

1957: Lou Michaels, Drafted 1958, 1st round, 4 overall

Plus, MB used Jason White as his Heisman example. If White wasn't basically crippled by knee injuries he would have been drafted.

[AlumniFan]

MB's posts on social matters speak for themselves. His posts on the current topic are most definitely based on the kid's sexual preference. Heck, taking MB's football related discussion to be true, the kid was taken about where all of MB's experts thought he would be, to wit, late 7th round/free agent signing. Yet, in the same breath MB says Sam was only selected because of some explicit and/or implicit politically correct pressure on the NFL.

Are his posts based on the "kid's sexual preferences" or are they based on how the NFL and NFL teams are making decisions based on the kid's sexual preferences? If you were in court, those would be two totally separate things with different premises and conclusions. If MB said "Sam is no good because he is gay" then your point would be spot on. I never saw where he wrote that. If I missed it, then I apologize.

[moytoy12]

Are his posts based on the "kid's sexual preferences" or are they based on how the NFL and NFL teams are making decisions based on the kid's sexual preferences? If you were in court, those would be two totally separate things with different premises and conclusions. If MB said "Sam is no good because he is gay" then your point would be spot on. I never saw where he wrote that. If I missed it, then I apologize.

His conclusions about the nfl's actions are based on the kid's sexual preference. The kid wasn't good enough to get drafted, but since he was considered the first openly gay NFL-potential player, the NFL forced someone to draft the not-good-enough-to-get-drafted gay kid. That's MB's point.

And, of course, thanks to the foo foo liberals, the NFL loses and Sam profits.

[AlumniFan]

His conclusions about the nfl's actions are based on the kid's sexual preference. The kid wasn't good enough to get drafted, but since he was considered the first openly gay NFL-potential player, the NFL forced someone to draft the not-good-enough-to-get-drafted gay kid. That's MB's point.

And, of course, thanks to the foo foo liberals, the NFL loses and Sam profits.

That is fair and what you have described as MB's point is hardly unique or really even meaningfully controversial. Would you put Bill Maher in the same camp as MB then? No one would deny that Maher is a liberal. (I'm assuming you have seen his comments on the Eich deal.)

[moytoy12]

That is fair and what you have described as MB's point is hardly unique or really even meaningfully controversial. Would you put Bill Maher in the same camp as MB then? No one would deny that Maher is a liberal. (I'm assuming you have seen his comments on the Eich deal.)

Same camp, no. Same capacity to have extreme views that are generally disregarded, yes. And let's be sure to put MB's views within his larger body of work here at Billikens.com, which distinguishes him in my eyes from those you say are saying the same as MB.

Fair points from you and wasn't as clear as I should have been.

[slu72]

Not going to defend MB, but I truly think if an NFL team thought or decided Sam would improve their chances of winning he would have been taken before the 249th pick. By coming out, and to his credit, he may well have possibly hurt his chances at being selected earlier. Why? A lot of teams simply would not want the distraction. As a society, we've still got a ways to go when it comes to diversity, and the media's always going to make an issue out of it until it's not an issue, ie there's a ton of African Americans playing baseball and no one bats an eye or gives it a second thought these days.

[MB73]

"When the Associated Press selected Sam as a first-team All-American on Tuesday, he became the 12th Tiger football player and only the third on defense to win consensus All-American honors."

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/12/17/4698737/missouri-defensive-end-michael.html

Yep, he was selected solely to avoid a media nightmare for the NFL.

It must suck to live in your world, MB, where all these good-for-nothing gays and blacks only get positive press as a result of their social status. Thankfully, your position fits nicely within the disregarded extreme.

I do not think you are reading and understanding what I write. As usual.

Yes, he might turn out to be help as a third down specialist for somebody. Many have said, not just Kiper and McShay et al, but NFL scouts, former NFL coaches, others, many, many questioned whether Sam was draft material. Not just MB73. The NFL does not go by a conference award. Many even believed and stated he might be better off not being drafted and going from team to team until he finds a fit.

I am opposed to the boycotting and threats and pressure created in these situations recently. It was hovering over the NFL, explosive, it is bullsh*t that it is coming to this, now in sports, too....the NFL was scared to death to not draft him.

I do not think his draft stock dropped when he made his announcement, it dropped with his 40 time and bench press and when people dissected his true on the field performance. A 'tweener. Too small for DE, no way quick enough for OLB. But someone better draft him, or else!

[cheeseman]

I actually agree with most of what MB has said in this thread. He had to get drafted. The NFL knew it, every team knew it, and so it happened. But, people like MB fail to acknowledge the other side of the coin. His draft stock dropped rapidly as soon as he came out. He performed poorly in the combine which gave teams and pundits an excuse to drop him on their boards. It started leaking out that team executives thought he was too slow, wasn't big enough, etc, etc. They knew they didn't want to deal with the attention that having him on their team would bring and so they started building excuses for why they weren't going to draft him. The combine was a perfect (and somewhat legitimate) excuse, that is until his pro day when he performed much better and basically put up the numbers that were originally expected from him. So yes, he was drafted yesterday because the league knew he literally had to be. But he would have gone between the 2nd and 4th rounds if the public didn't know he was gay. To say he benefited from this would be extremely ignorant.

IMO going to the Rams was the worst possible situation he could be put into. If he gets cut before the regular season, which I don't really think will happen, other teams will be able to easily ignore him and he'll struggle to get another chance. They'll be able to say he got a chance and couldn't make it. And the Rams are loaded with DE's, so he obviously is going to struggle to do anything. I wish him luck, but make no mistake about it, he is facing an uphill battle here.

The media circus might have caused a some NFL executives to shy away but some ran away because they could deal with a gay player on their team - never mind they probably already have had them but did not know. We will never know who the PR scared away and who the homophobia scared them away. I am not sure anybody would have signed him as an undrafted player either - I do agree he may not be picked up either if he gets cut but at least the Rams hands are clean since they drafted him and will give him a fair chance but it is up to him now. Shame on the rest of the league.

[SluSignGuy]

For simplicity, I am going to close some of the more recent off topic posts.