billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 especially on izzy. when healthy, he is top shelf. there arent but maybe 4 other relievers in baseball in his class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 what has dave duncan ever contributed anywhere anytime. ever notice wherever he is the pitching coach that staff leads the world in arm injuries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 It's the rest of the Bullpen that I don't think is tops in the league. Not a bad bullpen, but not the best by any means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 what little you will give up with kline and eldred will be offset by izzy. btw, part of kline and eldred's problems may stem from being asked to do more than they normally would have had izzy been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 And hopefully Suppan helps out by eating up a ton of innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 i am not a tony fan. i think he is more concerned with proving he is a genius than winning games. i would have fired him before the end of the first game he had the pitcher batting eighth a few years ago. that was enough for me. like i pointed out above, to NOT sell renteria on the team benefits of him becoming the leadoff man is just crazy. whitey would have gotten him to lessen that stroke, hit more ground balls and line drives and renteria would have become the best hitter in the game by now. look at what whitey did with ozzie smith. or frank white in kc. or the speedy center fielder that the royals had (drawing a blank on his name). hell vince coleman was virtually a track star and that was it. for the cardinals he was one of the most valuable players in the game. he leaves st louis and is out of baseball in two year. all of the above were not much offensively until whitey motivated them to work on their games and the way they approached hitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 red's two cardinal teams were amazing teams though. not that great of pitching staffs, however, the staffs did have the best starting pitcher ever to play the game in gibson. and the lineups were just rock solid that didnt make defensive mistakes. my guess is that red didnt have to do much managing. he probably could actually sleep during gibson starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SluSignGuy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Coattails or not (I attribute it more to the difficulty in maintaining a good team in the NFL), I think if you asked the fans whether or not they would take 3 bad years, for one great, compared to 4 close but no cigar years. They would take the great. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 i could have managed that oakland team and won a world series. the question is why he only won once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 remember, izzy didnt pitch at all till what end of june? then after that he was used carefully. izzy may not throw 100 mph, but he throws low - mid 90's and his ball moves more than wagner's. he has about as good of a curve ball as their is in baseball. supposedly widger may only be kept around because if it gets late in the game, only matheny and widger can catch izzy's breaking balls. otherwise they would have dumped widger by now and kept the mckay kid as the backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Gibby as the best starter ever? no way. My favorite maybe, but he doesn't come close to Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, or Sandy Koufax in his prime. Pedro's probably a better pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 actually i am not even a cardinal fan. i have been an atlanta braves fan since the winter of 68 when cepeda was traded to the braves. i was included in the deal. if you ever saw gibson pitch, you would know what i mean. NO ONE has ever exhibited the guts that gibson had on the mound. he is the toughest sports star i have ever seen. i am convinced that he would have been a hall of famer and thought of the same way regardless of whatever sport he would have chosen. i stand by what i said. the best starting pitcher ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I don't doubt he was gutsy, not do I doubt he was a hell of an athlete and competitor. He was just not as good a pitcher as numerous others in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 go look up his 1968 season. and then go look up his combined world series statistics and figure that out per appearance. he would spit today's pampered babies out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Because steve will let you know i'm kind of a baseball nazi. Gibby's 68 season was marvelous, but it's somewhat a byproduct of the league that year. The NL's league average for ERA was 2.90. That was hardly the offensive golden era that we're in now. When pedro had an ERA of 1.74 in 2000, the league average was 4.97. Bob Gibson's WHIP (Easily the most telling stat for pitchers) was never particularly good. I'd argue that Pedro's 2000 was far more dominant than Gibby's 1968. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Wow...Baseball starts today in Japan with the Rays beating up on the hated Yanks 8-3...go figure. I would not want to be the Yanks if they lose tomorrow as Steinbrenner will be unbearable on a 16+ hour flight home. I have remained a died in wool Cards fan even with my moves around the country and I absolutely hate American League ball with the stupid DH...sorry Edgar Martinez. This will be an interesting year for the Cards...how will they perform in the final year of TLR's contract??? As in any year the pitching will be the deciding factor, and I must admit that going into this year I am worried about the starting pitching. Last year the whole staff pretty much stunk up the joint but on paper and if Izzy can stay healthy over the course of 162 games then I do think the relief pitching appears to be better. Our everyday lineup is OK with some holes at 2nd and maybe LF as I am not sold on Lankkkkkford. Our bench appears to be a HUGE ? going into the season too. Someone mentioned 90 wins and if TLR can get that many victories out of this squad then I would think we could be in the hunt in our division. The thing to remember about the baseball season is that it is a marathon and not a track meet. I'm sure that's waht the Yanks are telling themselves today after losing to the lowly Rays. Heck, I might even break down and go see those losers play a game this year (it would be my 1st in 4 years). I do think all kidding aside that the Rays are on the right track and may not even finish in last in the American League East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 i understand what you are saying and i suspected you would come up with something like that. the big difference between a gibby and say a pedro though is what happens when it is all on the line. that is why i brought up the world series numbers. gibby didnt let anyone down when they absolutely had to. if flood doesnt misjudge that fly ball, my gosh gibson wins what, 8 world series games in a row? he was the best man. go ask your father or someone else that saw him in person. i will be shocked if they think any current active pitcher was his equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 The yankees have the worst record in baseball, for at least a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 And Gibby was easily the fiercest competitor around, we just have different qualities we look for in "best starter ever," which is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 schasz, you are so lucky to be right there where you can go to all those devil ray games night after night! we know where to find you every nite there is a rays game in town right? ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 The players weren't on the juice when Gibby pitched. It's amazing just looking at the size of the players in the WS between KC and the Cards and compare it to the size of the players today...not that many years ago. No way anyone could look me straight in the eye and tell me that's due to better nutrition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I don't think Womack has the greatest on base percentage ... but no worse than our recent history. What he will do is work the pitcher ... make him throw his arsenal and pitch count. Making him throw all his pitches is huge as the on deck batter gets a great look as does the rest of the team. Womack is a nice fit at second defensively also ... you are not going to get all stars at every position unless you can afford the Yankees payroll. I think this is the make or break year for LaRussa ... he also has a starting staff tailored for what is suppossed to be McKay's strength. Also ... Whitey only won 1 of 3 series ... I am not the biggest fan there either ... if he was so good ... how come he only won every other year ... his team quit on him and he quit on them. He was good ... but not what StL makes him out to be. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Yes, and I could have my pick of where to sit...not like going to a near capacity game at Busch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 1 game ...7th game of the world series I take Gibby Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I'll take Pedro in 2000 over both, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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