grave overreactions to SIUC game

[Bearvision]

all that i know is that taking out the national program games like north carolina or gonzaga that bring in the st louis area casual fan the programs that bring the most fans to a slu game consistently are xaiver and dayton. somebody thinks it is a rivalry.

I'm aware that you feel they are your rivals, what I'm saying is, is that I don't see that coming from their end for the most part. Maybe I'm wrong on that, I don't know the games as well as you would.

[billiken_roy]

You came off a little arrogant and elitist in your putting words into others' posts Roy...from what I've seen on here, you're well-respected, so I'll just assume this is an issue that bugs you, and chalk it up to that.

you are right it bugs me. imo there is no doubt that dayton and xaiver are perfect partners/rivals and just being in the same conference with them justifies all. yet for some reason mvc fans and casual fans think we would be much better off playing evansville and wichita state and northern iowa and drake, etc. other than creighton, the mvc schools have nothing in common with us. yet we have to rehash it every 6 months it seems.

[saluki762]

SIU outdrew XU last year in STL and the game took place during a blizzard. SIU is easily SLU's biggest non-conference rival and a better draw that XU or Dayton most of the time. If it wasn't for a blizzard last year, it would have been better attended than Dayton.

This is not an argument for the MVC just pointing out that people do seem to care more about SIU than Dayton or XU. Give SLU a couple more years in the A-10 and that should change but you know Biondi will jump conferences the first chance he gets if he thinks he can make a profit.

You can forget about Missouri State though, no one cares about them.

[Bearvision]

you are right it bugs me. imo there is no doubt that dayton and xaiver are perfect partners/rivals and just being in the same conference with them justifies all. yet for some reason mvc fans and casual fans think we would be much better off playing evansville and wichita state and northern iowa and drake, etc. other than creighton, the mvc schools have nothing in common with us. yet we have to rehash it every 6 months it seems.

Understood. You would probably fit well in the Valley, and I'd take it more as a sign of the recognition from Valley schools that you have the opportunity to have a great program, more than I'd take it as constantly trying to belittle them. Not saying you are doing that, but I see it a lot from A-10 fans. There is an ebb and flow in the college basketball world, and the Valley has been up some, and the A-10 has been down some outside of X. Now, the A-10 is back up some, and the Valley is more down. When the Valley is up, it doesn't prove SLU should be there, and when the A-10 is up, the same can be true.

You are a Jesuit, solid academic, private school in a large metro area. That aligns you more with some of the A-10 (14?) schools, but the goal of every institution is that of higher learning. My shorts only bunch when some of the SLU brethren try to pass themselves off as a little more than they are. None of us are Yale in academics, nor Gonzga in basketball. This does not mean we shouldn't strive for excellence though, and I believe all of these schools are pushing toward that goal...

[Bearvision]

You can forget about Missouri State though, no one cares about them.

ESPN ranked all basketball programs in Division I for prestige.

SIU checked in at #52, and Missouri St. checked in at #57 in all of division I basketball. First and second in the Valley, I'd say someone cares about Missouri St.

[billiken_roy]

You would probably fit well in the Valley,

other than geography and creighton we have nothing in common with the valley.

[saluki762]

ESPN ranked all basketball programs in Division I for prestige.

SIU checked in at #52, and Missouri St. checked in at #57 in all of division I basketball. First and second in the Valley, I'd say someone cares about Missouri St.

the LOL emoticon should have shown I was joking. not really.

[Bearvision]

other than geography and creighton we have nothing in common with the valley.

You are not better than the Valley. You are not better than the schools in the Valley.

[Bearvision]

the LOL emoticon should have shown I was joking. not really.

You were not joking...

[upsaluki]

From my point of view the biggest thing that creates a rivalry for out of conference foes is playing a lot of games against each other where neither team has the upper hand. Geographic proximity would be the second biggest thing. I thought we were going to get a good rivalry going with Bultler, but they weren't on the schedule this year. Those were tight games against some pretty evenly matched teams, and a lot of fans on both sides would have liked to see them continue. I would like to see the rivalry with SLU continue.

In conference, the biggest thing that builds a rivalry is competing for the top spot, followed by geographic proximity. That's why Creighton is our biggest rival in the MVC, followed by in-state schools like Bradly and Illinois State.

Attendance numbers from ESPN boxscores:

2007-2008

SIU Attendance: 10,918

Dayton Attendance: 11,108

Xavier Attendance: 10,823

2006-2007

MSU Attendance: 10,448

Xavier Attendance: 10,861

Dayton Attendance: 8,847

2005-2006

SIU Attendance: 8,875

Xavier Attendance: 9,749

Dayton Attendance: 10,264

Conference standings 2007-2008

Standings Conference Overall

W L GB PCT W L PCT

Xavier 14 2 - .875 27 6 .818

Temple 11 5 3 .688 21 12 .636

Massachusetts 10 6 4 .625 21 10 .677

Saint Joseph's 9 7 5 .563 21 12 .636

Charlotte 9 7 5 .563 20 13 .606

Richmond 9 7 5 .563 16 14 .533

Dayton 8 8 6 .500 21 10 .677

La Salle 8 8 6 .500 15 17 .469

Rhode Island 7 9 7 .438 21 11 .656

Duquesne 7 9 7 .438 17 13 .567

Saint Louis 7 9 7 .438 16 15 .516

Conference standings 2006-2007

Standings Conference Overall

W L GB PCT W L PCT

Xavier 13 3 - .813 24 8 .750

Massachusetts 13 3 - .813 23 8 .742

George Washington 11 5 2 .688 23 8 .742

Fordham 10 6 3 .625 18 12 .600

Rhode Island 10 6 3 .625 19 14 .576

Saint Joseph's 9 7 4 .563 18 14 .563

Dayton 8 8 5 .500 19 12 .613

Saint Louis 8 8 5 .500 20 13 .606

[billiken_roy]

You are not better than the Valley. You are not better than the schools in the Valley.

how does "nothing in common" = "better than the valley"? unless you are talking about reading comprehension.

[Bearvision]

I'd agree with UpSaluki, but it really matters little at this point. Spirited games between teams that have either played versus one another for a long period, close games on a continuin basis, or geographic proximity.

SLU is happy in the A-10, why would the Valley even want them at this point? It's like trying to keep a girl that doesn't want to be with you...all parties end up unhappy in the end.

[saluki762]

how does "nothing in common" = "better than the valley"? unless you are talking about reading comprehension.

He went to Missouri State, are you surprised.

[Bearvision]

how does "nothing in common" = "better than the valley"? unless you are talking about reading comprehension.

Even you must admit, most times, geography is the number one determinant in conference affiliation. Why am I even in this debate? SLU in the Valley, or not, does not matter to me. It's not like we'd be gaining a national program that would strengthen the Valley, and if you did join, we'd be gaining a program that has prior affiliation and a "name" coach with a nice, new arena.

Matters little either way.

[Bearvision]

He went to Missouri State, are you surprised.

A Saluki talking about the quality of education from another school...too funny.

[saluki762]

A Saluki talking about the quality of education from another school...too funny.

It would be but I went to SLU. I am really just joking though.

[Bearvision]

It would be but I went to SLU. I am really just joking though.

I really need to lighten up on the caffeine...allowing a discussion on a message board to bug me is bad enough. Reading into the tone of written words without any non-verbal cues to use, is worse.

Good luck to both schools in the future. I believe it is much more fun when all the programs are good, and is good for the basketball in the area...

[brianstl]

the LOL emoticon should have shown I was joking. not really.

Really who does care about MSU. It is not even the quality party school it was.

[William Iken]

you are right it bugs me. imo there is no doubt that dayton and xaiver are perfect partners/rivals and just being in the same conference with them justifies all. yet for some reason mvc fans and casual fans think we would be much better off playing evansville and wichita state and northern iowa and drake, etc. other than creighton, the mvc schools have nothing in common with us. yet we have to rehash it every 6 months it seems.

XU and Cincinnati are huge rivals and SLU (or any other school) will never form a natural rivalry with XU to match it. Those schools hate each other. They may not have much in common in terms of institutional qualities, but they are in the same city and that it enough. Geography matters, at least within city limits.

The Dayton rivalry with Cincinnati has also been a good one, but I think they too view Xavier as an important rival. Maybe even Miami (Oh) to some extent. Others will know more than I would on Dayton.

Unless SLU, Dayton and Xavier compete hard for the title over the next few years, I don't see a real rivalry forming. At the moment, I'm happy with allowing the rivalry with SIU© to form naturally through competitive games every year, regardless of whether the schools have much in common.

[brianstl]

XU and Cincinnati are huge rivals and SLU (or any other school) will never form a natural rivalry with XU to match it. Those schools hate each other. They may not have much in common in terms of institutional qualities, but they are in the same city and that it enough. Geography matters, at least within city limits.

The Dayton rivalry with Cincinnati has also been a good one, but I think they too view Xavier as an important rival. Maybe even Miami (Oh) to some extent. Others will know more than I would on Dayton.

Unless SLU, Dayton and Xavier compete hard for the title over the next few years, I don't see a real rivalry forming. At the moment, I'm happy with allowing the rivalry with SIU© to form naturally through competitive games every year, regardless of whether the schools have much in common.

I think the closeness of the schools contributes greatly to those rivalries. That is why I think it would be smart for SLU to start scheduling SIUE. I don't remember it myself, but I have heard stories about the old SLU-SIUE soccer rivalry and it was supposed to be a holy war between the two schools. SIUE is years away from being a good team, but a series need to start somewhere. Playing SLU might be able to help jump start that program.

It is my belief that more good college programs in the area will have a trickle down effect on HS and AAU ball in the area. It would give another reason for local kids to stay home. It means more D1 kids playing in the summer league. I think it would help raise the quality level of basketball throughout the area.

[William Iken]

I think the closeness of the schools contributes greatly to those rivalries. That is why I think it would be smart for SLU to start scheduling SIUE. I don't remember it myself, but I have heard stories about the old SLU-SIUE soccer rivalry and it was supposed to be a holy war between the two schools. SIUE is years away from being a good team, but a series need to start somewhere. Playing SLU might be able to help jump start that program.

It is my belief that more good college programs in the area will have a trickle down effect on HS and AAU ball in the area. It would give another reason for local kids to stay home. It means more D1 kids playing in the summer league. I think it would help raise the quality level of basketball throughout the area.

Of course, geography matters more than anything else (in most cases). That was really the point.

The 'bronze boot' was a fantastic game and I'm hoping it - no, make that it better - reappears now that SIUE is back to D I in soccer.

I agree, establishing the rivalry in basketball would be good for the area, but SIUE may want to wait a few years to build their program before doing so. If the games are laugh-ers, it won't make a good rivalry (unless of course the games turn ugly and teams start to really hate each other).

[Clock_Tower]

I think the closeness of the schools contributes greatly to those rivalries. That is why I think it would be smart for SLU to start scheduling SIUE. I don't remember it myself, but I have heard stories about the old SLU-SIUE soccer rivalry and it was supposed to be a holy war between the two schools. SIUE is years away from being a good team, but a series need to start somewhere. Playing SLU might be able to help jump start that program.

It is my belief that more good college programs in the area will have a trickle down effect on HS and AAU ball in the area. It would give another reason for local kids to stay home. It means more D1 kids playing in the summer league. I think it would help raise the quality level of basketball throughout the area.

Brian. You cannot be serious. If all that matters is closeness, then why isn't our annual game against Harris Stowe a "holy war"?

[Soderball]

I'd rather play SIUE than USC-Upstate. Or Samford. Or Savannah State (though they are suprisingly good this year, for being Savannah State, i guess.), or UMSL as our first game, for that matter. At least SIUE is D1.

[brianstl]

Brian. You cannot be serious. If all that matters is closeness, then why isn't our annual game against Harris Stowe a "holy war"?

That is why I said it has to start to tart somewhere. I don't expect to be a "holy war" right away. Long term thinking. I much rather watch a SIUE team with local players on it than some of the teams we bring in.

[jjray]

other than geography and creighton we have nothing in common with the valley.

Isn't that overstating it Roy? SLU used to play in the Valley. The Missouri Valley headquarters are in St. Louis. The conference tourney is held annually in St. Louis. And geographically, we're bracketed by Valley schools. Of course I prefer playing b-ball in the A-10 but we don't need to put down the Valley to make that point.