grave overreactions to SIUC game

[RB2.0]

We've been playing them both for a long time and the fans from both teams are indifferent, what makes you think they will all of a sudden become a rivalry?

Ok ok MVC/A-10 debate is like bringing up abortion at a dinner party - apparently not a good idea.

[Postcard]

We've been playing them both for a long time and the fans from both teams are indifferent, what makes you think they will all of a sudden become a rivalry?

As I said in my post rivalaries just don't instantly happen. They take time. I think over time(10-15) years that SIUC and MO ST could possibly develop into nice rivals if we were in the same conference. When we play either of them now, it's probably are biggest non conference "rival" game of the year. The same could be said for them when they play us. So naturally if we played them twice a year and possibly three times, there would be a good chance that they could develop into some pretty good rivals.

[slufanskip]

As I said in my post rivalaries just don't instantly happen. They take time. I think over time(10-15) years that SIUC and MO ST could possibly develop into nice rivals if we were in the same conference. When we play either of them now, it's probably are biggest non conference "rival" game of the year. The same could be said for them when they play us. So naturally if we played them twice a year and possibly three times, there would be a good chance that they could develop into some pretty good rivals.

We've been playing them for 10-15 years ... the fans of both teams are indifferent. The only reason I could see that changing is due to being in the same conference and fighting for conference championships. The problem with that argument is, the same argument can be made for X and for Dayton.

I think more fans would be excited to see us play X and Dayton even if we weren't in the same conference than they would be to see us play SIU or Mo State. The Valley also has Creighton, but the A10 has UMass and St. Joe's ... both teams our fans are excited about us playing.

And SIU isn't a non conference rival ... the fan apathy can be proven by how many fans made the very short road trip to Carbondale to see us play them. The fact is the SLU fans don't really care about or consider SIU a rival. I'm not saying they aren't a good team, they are, but they aren't a rival. I also don't think SIU fans get all that excited about SLU coming to town ... what does their arena hold? How many people were at the game last week?

[billiken_roy]

As I said in my post rivalaries just don't instantly happen. They take time. I think over time(10-15) years that SIUC and MO ST could possibly develop into nice rivals if we were in the same conference. When we play either of them now, it's probably are biggest non conference "rival" game of the year. The same could be said for them when they play us. So naturally if we played them twice a year and possibly three times, there would be a good chance that they could develop into some pretty good rivals.

but even though we have been playing dayton every year for a long time even before joining the a-10 and even though we also played xaiver in previous seasons and hated them and vice versa for years while fellow members of the midwestern conference and we expect to continue to play both dayton and xaiver for years to come, and both of their schools mirror slu in philosophy and ethics and size and target students, we cant be their rivals because they are a hundred miles further away than siu or missouri state. got it. no doubt you are a genius.

[moytoy12]

I'm not sure we have any rivals right now. I think SIU-C is probably our closest thing to a rival. I don't think X or Dayton considers us to be a rival.

I think Missouri would be our biggest rival if a series was to ever start with them and they are neither in the MVC or A-10, but they are close.

Edit: I think because of the similarity between the schools, Creighton would make a nice rival if we could get something going with them on a consistent basis.

[Clock_Tower]

I'm not sure we have any rivals right now. I think SIU-C is probably our closest thing to a rival. I don't think X or Dayton considers us to be a rival.

I think Missouri would be our biggest rival if a series was to ever start with them and they are neither in the MVC or A-10, but they are close.

Edit: I think because of the similarity between the schools, Creighton would make a nice rival if we could get something going with them on a consistent basis.

So the Jesuits opened a school in sleepy town Nebraska. Big deal. That would never be a rival with SLU as far as I am concerned.

If X or Dayton don't consider us a rival then why would Mizzou consider us their since they already have Kansas and the other Big 8 schools - now Big 12 schools. Part of being a rival is having something in common with the other city/school. I look forward to playing SIU each year because I want to beat darlings of the Valley but I don't ever see myself driving 100 to their neck of the woods. In return, there are several SIU fans who come to SLU games but I'd venture that most live here in St. Louis and that these alums enjoy having their school come to them. There are not, however, hundreds of Saluki fans coming from Southern Illinois for the game and there certainly are not many Bills fans going there. Just like the SIUC fans living in St. Louis enjoy their team coming to town, our alumni do the same in Cincy, Dayton, Philly, NY, DC, etc.

[moytoy12]

So the Jesuits opened a school in sleepy town Nebraska. Big deal. That would never be a rival with SLU as far as I am concerned.

If X or Dayton don't consider us a rival then why would Mizzou consider us their since they already have Kansas and the other Big 8 schools - now Big 12 schools. Part of being a rival is having something in common with the other city/school. I look forward to playing SIU each year because I want to beat darlings of the Valley but I don't ever see myself driving 100 to their neck of the woods. In return, there are several SIU fans who come to SLU games but I'd venture that most live here in St. Louis and that these alums enjoy having their school come to them. There are not, however, hundreds of Saluki fans coming from Southern Illinois for the game and there certainly are not many Bills fans going there. Just like the SIUC fans living in St. Louis enjoy their team coming to town, our alumni do the same in Cincy, Dayton, Philly, NY, DC, etc.

You're right, that short series with Missouri didn't show us anything.

Why would a series with Creighton create interest? Probably for the same reason that games with other Jesuit schools would create interest.

I would differ with you on the amount of SIU-c fans coming to St. Louis for the game. If there is any reason to escape Carbondale, those folks are leaving town for the night. As for going to Carbondale, please see the previous sentence.

[kevinfootes]

BTW, did you know that we routinely played and were rivals of Memphis, Louisville, Cincy, DePaul and Marquette? I know they don't compare to the Valley schools but maybe they might want to play us again.

Clock, we played well against those schools and I wish we could play them again. That said, I don't think any of those schools considered us to be huge rivals for them. If they did, they wouldn't have a problem playing games against us.

Dayton is a good rival for SLU. We won't be the one big game on their schedule every year, but it will develop into a game that they care about. The difference in this situation is that SLU was in a conference with them before and the schools continued to play one another when they weren't. I agree that XU can become a big game as well.

The best way to develop a rivalry is to play one another every year. IMO, anyone who thinks SLU should quit playing Carbondale or Springfield is either nuts or obviously doesn't pay for tickets. You have to give the fans something to care about. Lame buy games are necessary (to an extent) and one offs vs. good teams are fine too. But you need to play teams every year to get people caring (or almost every year).

BTW, the A10 should somehow be in 2 divisions IMO. SLU should be playing Dayton and XU twice each year.

[Pistol]

I'm not sure we have any rivals right now. I think SIU-C is probably our closest thing to a rival. I don't think X or Dayton considers us to be a rival.

I think Missouri would be our biggest rival if a series was to ever start with them and they are neither in the MVC or A-10, but they are close.

Edit: I think because of the similarity between the schools, Creighton would make a nice rival if we could get something going with them on a consistent basis.

I go to a lot of Xavier games and I know a lot of Xavier fans and alums. They absolutely hate the fact that we don't play them twice a year, especially since we both play Dayton twice. Invariably, when I bring up that I'm a SLU grad, the first thing they say is that it's a shame we don't play twice. I'm not saying it's an instant rivalry- they already have long-standing ones with Dayton and Cincinnati- but there is a lot of push for this to be an annual home-and-home.

There are a ton of St. Louis kids at Dayton. We played them for several years leading up to joining the A10 and now play them twice, and it's usually a close game. I've been to 3 of the last 5 games we've played in Dayton and there are always SLU fans there and the place is always sold out for it. There's a ton of interest in this game every year.

[kevinfootes]

We also don't even draw more at home when we play SIU or Mo State. I'd be curious to know what the attendance figures were the last 3 or 4 years against X and Dayton as compared with SIU and Mo State.

We don't draw more? Compared to what? I think the SIUC game was one of the biggest non-conference games last year and ranked right up there with our biggest crowds. As I recall, there was also pretty bad weather for the SIUC game.

[kevinfootes]

x and dayton beat them every time.

As bonwich points out, the crowds were virtually identical last year. SIUC was 2nd among those 3. You guys are wrong on this one.

[kevinfootes]

Well then it must be Ill State or maybe Drake from the MVC that would be our great Rival. I don't see why people think we would have better rivalries with the MVC. We've been playing those teams for years and no one gives a $hit.

I'm not advocate of joining the MVC, but if you believe people here don't give a $hit about SIUC then they obviously don't give a $hit about Dayton or XU either. The crowds are pretty much the same.

Keep the SIUC series going unless you can guarantee a team that will draw more fans and be better for SLU's RPI.

[GoBills]

Agreed that the A-10 should go to two divisions. There is no perfect way of dividing it up, but doing so would help develop rivalries. My first choice would be SLU, Dayton, X, Duquesne and the three Philly schools. I think there is no way they split the Philly schools from UMass and URI, so a more realistic scenario would have Richmond, GW and Charlotte (our foe from the old conference) instead of the three Philly schools. The Bills would still have X and Dayton which is most important.

[Bill_Ken R]

I think we should continue to play SIU. They are a very good program year in and year out. They are a quality opponent which I far prefer, even if we lose, over playing a bunch of no name cupcakes. I have been to Carbondale for games but don't know enough about the area to comment. I live in a rural area of Missouri and realize that there are a lot of hicks here but we are not all hicks and we have a lot of positives to offer in terms of quality of life. Those who choose to run down Carbondale or belittle its residents don't use good judgement, however much fun it may be to run someone or an area down. I wish the Billikens were doing as well as SIU over the long haul and think we will eventually but certainly haven't to this point.

[Pistol]

Agreed that the A-10 should go to two divisions. There is no perfect way of dividing it up, but doing so would help develop rivalries. My first choice would be SLU, Dayton, X, Duquesne and the three Philly schools. I think there is no way they split the Philly schools from UMass and URI, so a more realistic scenario would have Richmond, GW and Charlotte (our foe from the old conference) instead of the three Philly schools. The Bills would still have X and Dayton which is most important.

I'd split it up into a North/East/Northeast division and South/West/Southwest division:

NE:

UMass

LaSalle

St. Joe's

Fordham

St. Bonaventure

Temple

Rhode Island

SW:

SLU

Xavier

Dayton

Charlotte

Richmond

Duquesne

George Washington

Those are pretty even, and make the most geographic sense (if that is possible). The only tough one is St. Bonaventure, which isn't far from Pittsburgh. The others are all so close, and that's all the way across NY state- I had to draw the line somewhere, though.

[GoBills]

Yep, I agree because that's the way I outlined it in my second scenario. Duquesne might throw a little stink about being separated from the Philly 3, but too bad.

[slufanskip]

We don't draw more? Compared to what? I think the SIUC game was one of the biggest non-conference games last year and ranked right up there with our biggest crowds. As I recall, there was also pretty bad weather for the SIUC game.

The response was in regards to us being in the Valley because SIU and Mo St are natural rivals, my view is they aren't any more than X or Dayton, so that the rivalry point is just wrong. I don't want to quit playing SIU, but they aren't some big rivalry that would inspire us to join the MVC. If I had the choice to see one game SIU or X and neither was in conference, I'd see X. Imo we don't have any real rivalries as we've changed affiliations to often, but X and Dayton will develop into just as big of rivalries as SIU or Mo St would be if we were in their conference

[kevinfootes]

The response was in regards to us being in the Valley because SIU and Mo St are natural rivals, my view is they aren't any more than X or Dayton, so that the rivalry point is just wrong. I don't want to quit playing SIU, but they aren't some big rivalry that would inspire us to join the MVC. If I had the choice to see one game SIU or X and neither was in conference, I'd see X. Imo we don't have any real rivalries as we've changed affiliations to often, but X and Dayton will develop into just as big of rivalries as SIU or Mo St would be if we were in their conference

I'm in no way endorsing joining the valley, but SIUC is the closest thing SLU has to a rival right now. I wouldn't downplay the game, and it's good for our RPI.

[slufanskip]

I'm in no way endorsing joining the valley, but SIUC is the closest thing SLU has to a rival right now. I wouldn't downplay the game, and it's good for our RPI.

I don't think they are, I think X or Dayton is just as big. I don't want to quit playing SIU, but I don't see them as a big rival, if it was we'd have more than 100 people making the long 100 mile trip to see the game.

[Bearvision]

I don't think they are, I think X or Dayton is just as big. I don't want to quit playing SIU, but I don't see them as a big rival, if it was we'd have more than 100 people making the long 100 mile trip to see the game.

From what I've seen, X and Dayton do not share the rivalry though. This is only from an outsider's viewpoint though...

[billiken_roy]

From what I've seen, X and Dayton do not share the rivalry though. This is only from an outsider's viewpoint though...

all that i know is that taking out the national program games like north carolina or gonzaga that bring in the st louis area casual fan the programs that bring the most fans to a slu game consistently are xaiver and dayton. somebody thinks it is a rivalry.

[Pistol]

From what I've seen, X and Dayton do not share the rivalry though. This is only from an outsider's viewpoint though...

X and Dayton definitely share the rivalry. I posted a little about each about a dozen posts back in this thread. Dayton seems to look at X as its biggest rival- 45 minutes away, same conference, play twice a year. XU fans generally consider UC a bigger rival, and get up for the Crosstown Shootout more than any other game each year (it's this Saturday, by the way), but also hate Dayton and see that as a big rivalry.

EDIT: Thought you meant with each other, not SLU. I also commented on the XU-SLU and XU-Dayton matchups. They see each other as bigger rivals, but from everyone I've met and everything I've heard and read around here, Dayton and Xavier fans universally seem to think that the three programs should be playing each other twice each year, no questions asked, and aren't as concerned about the third home-and-home because there are no other natural rivals in the conference.

[billiken_roy]

what i am gathering from this thread that if you are in the mvc you are only allowed to have one rivalry. thus, all the mvc fans are telling us that we cant have a rivalry with anyone in the a-10 because they already have a rivalry with someone else.

however, i guess the likes of missouri state and carbondale dont have a rivalry so they each want us to be their rival. at least we got that going for us. maybe we should sell our rivalry status to the highest bidder ala blagoavich

[Clock_Tower]

what i am gathering from this thread that if you are in the mvc you are only allowed to have one rivalry. thus, all the mvc fans are telling us that we cant have a rivalry with anyone in the a-10 because they already have a rivalry with someone else.

however, i guess the likes of missouri state and carbondale dont have a rivalry so they each want us to be their rival. at least we got that going for us. maybe we should sell our rivalry status to the highest bidder ala blagoavich

A bit confusted on the term "rivals" as well. In one sense, a school often as a single rival school. Would that be an "arch-rival" or does the word "arch" connotate close distance/proximity. If a school can only have one rival, then SLU has none. If, on the other hand, schools can and usually do have 2, 3 or 4 "rivals" then SLU currently has 4 IMO - UD, X, SIUC and MO State - 2 within conference and 2 out of conference. Possibly, Mizzou would be a rival even though the schools don't play each other. Not they everyone would consider each of these 4/5 rivals to be equal to each other. It's a shame we play no one at all from our prior Great Midwest and Conference USA days (aside from Charlotte in the A10) since Marquette, DePaul, Memphis - and to a lesser degree- Louisville could still be a type of "rival."

Just some thoughts in response to comments like SLU cannot be a rival to X b/c X already has Cincy and UD.

[Bearvision]

what i am gathering from this thread that if you are in the mvc you are only allowed to have one rivalry. thus, all the mvc fans are telling us that we cant have a rivalry with anyone in the a-10 because they already have a rivalry with someone else.

however, i guess the likes of missouri state and carbondale dont have a rivalry so they each want us to be their rival. at least we got that going for us. maybe we should sell our rivalry status to the highest bidder ala blagoavich

I never said anything about SLU and MSU being rivals...they're not. We don't consider SLU a rival at all (MSU has other rivals). SLU doesn't consider MSU a rival either (different school philosophies, large metro area versus smaller metro area etc).

You came off a little arrogant and elitist in your putting words into others' posts Roy...from what I've seen on here, you're well-respected, so I'll just assume this is an issue that bugs you, and chalk it up to that.