Chaifetz - New Seats

[kshoe]

my loudest b!tch is hangerons. i really thought they would finally be put at the back of the line and while i am sure some have, i am now of the belief too many just found new "sponsors". but that said, i am just as sure that slu doesnt like that either. the hangerons found the crack and exploited it, and it is too late to do anything now. but one would think they will fix that by the next reshuffle in say 2-3 years. and those of us still giving and trying to improve our rankings will eventually be rewarded.

Roy, what evidence do you have that there are hundreds or thousands of "hangerons" taking all of the precious seats?

[billiken_roy]

Roy, what evidence do you have that there are hundreds or thousands of "hangerons" taking all of the precious seats?

i've had over 20 people contact me to do the job for them. i find it hard to believe they all jumped over the first 337 to get to me.

couple that with the fact acct holders were indeed allowed to increase their seat total from what they had previously and the fact that a lot of red and green are gone already, why would you not assume hangerons have beat the system.

for the record, where did you get the "hundreds or thousands" that you accused me of saying?

[Clock_Tower]

Based on the information I have from the Billiken Club Board meetings, I believe they are very serious about the reseating every 3 or 4 years. This is the only way they can be sure people continue to donate to the Billiken Club.

It will all depend on the performance of the team. If the team does well, attendance goes up, demand for seats goes up, and the place will be reseated. Conversely, if the team does poorly, attendance declines further, I think they'll be very nervous about reseating and potentially losing more season ticket holders.

I started much of this discussion by stating I thought MW had done a good job, given what is his task, and that the project was nearly complete. Having read the thread it appears that most people, not all, have been able to purchase seats in locations that they can live with. No plan of this scope will make everyone happy, but it seems most are.

When I said that the project was nearly complete, which Clock took exception towards, I'd say we're in the last few days of a two year project. I think that's nearly complete. I began having discussions with MW nearly 2 years ago. The original plan morphed a number of times to it's final shape. It seems, given the culture change, to have accomplished the goal, raise more money without destroying the season ticket base, and provide a culture for continued giving.

Again, the onus will be on the team to deliver a brand of hoops that we, and others, are willing to fork out cash to come see.

72. Sorry for the misunderstand. You are correct that this process (several years long) is coming to an end. I took you comments, as you indicate, that the seat selection process is nearly complete. With over 2000 accounts (and the fact that only the first 300 have selected), you will agree that the seat selection process is far from over. As to this process, I really did not expect to hear much bitching from the first 300 account holders saying "all the seats are taken..."

Would post more but don't want to incur the wrath of Shoe saying I'm so negative.

[billiken_roy]

Would post more but don't want to incur the wrath of Shoe saying I'm so negative.

well you've said it a thousand times.

[kshoe]

i've had over 20 people contact me to do the job for them. i find it hard to believe they all jumped over the first 337 to get to me.

couple that with the fact acct holders were indeed allowed to increase their seat total from what they had previously and the fact that a lot of red and green are gone already, why would you not assume hangerons have beat the system.

for the record, where did you get the "hundreds or thousands" that you accused me of saying?

Well, if its less that a couple hundred then I think it deserves a big "who cares" as it relates to less than 1 row of the entire stadium (9,000 seats / 32 rows 280 seats per row) so I must assume you think there are more than 200 people doing this, hence the hundreds.

It has already been discussed that one of the reasons for many of the red seats being taken was families and opposing teams fans. So far as I can tell, many of the green seats taken were taken by the same folks that already sit in the end-zones. Shouldn't be a surprise there. Add in the increase in the cost of the tickets in general and tough economic times and it shouldn't be shocking to see people opting for the cheaper seats even for their own personal use.

As for people calling you, you must admit you are a pretty vocal and public figure re: the Billikens. The remaining 337 people ahead of you aren't. Besides my parents and their friends I don't think I even know anyone well enough to call and ask. I think you over-estimate the fluidity with which this could be happening.

Now if you told me a stat like this: the 300 that picked previously averaged 3 seats per account and now average 6 seats per account, then I would agree with you. But you don't seem to have any info like that and really all the 2nd hand info we've heard from guys like Billikan (from 20 to 12) is that they've had to decrease the tickets in their group. So really, the average is probably going down.

Now, back to chasing those ghosts that don't really exist...

[billiken_roy]

a couple hundred is still too many. there should be virtually none.

i assume your assertion i said thousands now has been withdrawn and you are apologizing for lying that i said such. thank you.

[billikendave]

Based on the information I have from the Billiken Club Board meetings, I believe they are very serious about the reseating every 3 or 4 years. This is the only way they can be sure people continue to donate to the Billiken Club.

It will all depend on the performance of the team. If the team does well, attendance goes up, demand for seats goes up, and the place will be reseated. Conversely, if the team does poorly, attendance declines further, I think they'll be very nervous about reseating and potentially losing more season ticket holders.

I started much of this discussion by stating I thought MW had done a good job, given what is his task, and that the project was nearly complete. Having read the thread it appears that most people, not all, have been able to purchase seats in locations that they can live with. No plan of this scope will make everyone happy, but it seems most are.

When I said that the project was nearly complete, which Clock took exception towards, I'd say we're in the last few days of a two year project. I think that's nearly complete. I began having discussions with MW nearly 2 years ago. The original plan morphed a number of times to it's final shape. It seems, given the culture change, to have accomplished the goal, raise more money without destroying the season ticket base, and provide a culture for continued giving.

Again, the onus will be on the team to deliver a brand of hoops that we, and others, are willing to fork out cash to come see.

Any idea why this reshuffling has not been formalized or put in stone? If this is going to happen again in 3-4 years as you say, I would think that should be front and center this time around and again in the near future.

At first I thought (like Rich) that it would be nightmareish. However, I figure that I will be in a better financial position and ability to go to games without two very small kids in a couple years. This would there would be continued "bites" at the apple for getting seats.

I am just surprized that this is not formalized. Then again, maybe I'm not surprized.....

[billiken_roy]

Any idea why this reshuffling has not been formalized or put in stone? If this is going to happen again in 3-4 years as you say, I would think that should be front and center this time around and again in the near future.

At first I thought (like Rich) that it would be nightmareish. However, I figure that I will be in a better financial position and ability to go to games without two very small kids in a couple years. This would there would be continued "bites" at the apple for getting seats.

I am just surprized that this is not formalized. Then again, maybe I'm not surprized.....

while i dont recall seeing it in writing, i believe they have constantly said such at the billiken club meetings.

[Clock_Tower]

Well, if its less that a couple hundred then I think it deserves a big "who cares" as it relates to less than 1 row of the entire stadium (9,000 seats / 32 rows 280 seats per row) so I must assume you think there are more than 200 people doing this, hence the hundreds.

It has already been discussed that one of the reasons for many of the red seats being taken was families and opposing teams fans. So far as I can tell, many of the green seats taken were taken by the same folks that already sit in the end-zones. Shouldn't be a surprise there. Add in the increase in the cost of the tickets in general and tough economic times and it shouldn't be shocking to see people opting for the cheaper seats even for their own personal use.

As for people calling you, you must admit you are a pretty vocal and public figure re: the Billikens. The remaining 337 people ahead of you aren't. Besides my parents and their friends I don't think I even know anyone well enough to call and ask. I think you over-estimate the fluidity with which this could be happening.

Now if you told me a stat like this: the 300 that picked previously averaged 3 seats per account and now average 6 seats per account, then I would agree with you. But you don't seem to have any info like that and really all the 2nd hand info we've heard from guys like Billikan (from 20 to 12) is that they've had to decrease the tickets in their group. So really, the average is probably going down.

Now, back to chasing those ghosts that don't really exist...

Shoe. Agree with most of what you wrote. Each year, the number of season tickets has decreased. 5,500 just announced by AD May yesterday. That is alot less than the 7000 or 7500 last year. Based uopn many who have posted about their own experiences, most are downsizing their numbers from 20 to 8, or 12 to 8. Believe Billikan wrote that his group is down to 12 (8 and 4 Blue) from 20. The group I know in the upper 40's to low 50's (I posted about them to start this thread) is down from 12 to 8. Those 4, I'm told, are not getting their own seats. Roy, believe many people (for years) would buy more tickets than they truly needed for those 1 or 2 games when they could bring a "big" group. Also, believe many considered this both as a charitable act and as a way to support the program - instead of donating cash. Simply buy more tickets and be able to give them away when the kids come back in town, to hand out at work, etc. With a price tag of $450 per seat, as well as possibly a large arena fee, I don't see the "hanger-ons" you are fearful about. Even if the numbers are higher than Shoe suggests, these people, for the most part, are long-time Billiken fans who got displaced under the new ticket rules limiting groups to 8. You are not suggesting, or are you, that young people, recent grads and/or truly new fans are jumping ahead of us?

Shoe. Believe without the temporary seating, the higher elevations of each row and the lack of dead space, there will be a different set of people in the end-zones this year - Me for one.

Roy, glad to see you have adopted new, self-imposed restraints on criticisms and the number of posts about a topic. Looking forward to less criticism of RM in 2008-2009.

[Clock_Tower]

Any idea why this reshuffling has not been formalized or put in stone? If this is going to happen again in 3-4 years as you say, I would think that should be front and center this time around and again in the near future.

At first I thought (like Rich) that it would be nightmareish. However, I figure that I will be in a better financial position and ability to go to games without two very small kids in a couple years. This would there would be continued "bites" at the apple for getting seats.

I am just surprized that this is not formalized. Then again, maybe I'm not surprized.....

BDave. I have not been at the recent BC meetings to pass on what they said or didn't say. Believe that SLU has published that they reserve the right to reshuffle in 3 years. Not sure if it said every 3 years or just in 3 years. Therefore, I believe these will be your seats for the next 3 years. My take is that the reshuffle is a good PR tool which they can use now to anyone not happy. My guess is that if anyone really got screwed or if a few good donors come along, SLU has enough seats to accomodate this year and/or informally over the years. For example, I don't see all the gold seats being sold for SLU's first game. Also, by all accounts, there are plenty of Blue seats still available.

[Clock_Tower]

Any idea why this reshuffling has not been formalized or put in stone? If this is going to happen again in 3-4 years as you say, I would think that should be front and center this time around and again in the near future.

At first I thought (like Rich) that it would be nightmareish. However, I figure that I will be in a better financial position and ability to go to games without two very small kids in a couple years. This would there would be continued "bites" at the apple for getting seats.

I am just surprized that this is not formalized. Then again, maybe I'm not surprized.....

BDave. I have not been at the recent BC meetings to pass on what they said or didn't say. Believe that SLU has published that they reserve the right to reshuffle in 3 years. Not sure if it said every 3 years or just in 3 years. Therefore, I believe these will be your seats for the next 3 years. My take is that the reshuffle is a good PR tool which they can use now to anyone not happy. My guess is that if anyone really got screwed or if a few good donors come along, SLU has enough seats to accomodate this year and/or informally over the years. For example, I don't see all the gold seats being sold for SLU's first game. Also, by all accounts, there are plenty of Blue seats still available.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, glad to see you have adopted new, self-imposed restraints on criticisms and the number of posts about a topic. Looking forward to less criticism of RM in 2008-2009.

actually i havent adopted anything. i was just a little peeved at kshoe GREATLY exagerating a number when in the past he has hard attacked me if i flowered a point. i just dont think folks should have it both ways. if i cant paint a picture than kshoe shouldnt either.

i am not assuming new fans are butting in line. i am assuming previous are still getting around the system. and i stated above that i am sure the numbers are down of such "fans/boosters".

[billikendave]

while i dont recall seeing it in writing, i believe they have constantly said such at the billiken club meetings.

Roy, not picking on you but a general comment. . .

If the message is getting reinforced to the 50-75 diehards who show up at Humphreys, then that isn't a very good plan or policy for dictating how season tickets are purchased or renewed or reshuffled. Seems pretty kitschy or amateurish considering there are several thousand season ticket holders and large amounts of money involved.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, not picking on you but a general comment. . .

If the message is getting reinforced to the 50-75 diehards who show up at Humphreys, then that isn't a very good plan or policy for dictating how season tickets are purchased or renewed or reshuffled. Seems pretty kitschy or amateurish considering there are several thousand season ticket holders and large amounts of money involved.

i am not defending the action of our athletic dept. i have been accused (and rightfully so) of bashing our very small time athletic dept. everything you have said is true.

[kshoe]

a couple hundred is still too many. there should be virtually none.

i assume your assertion i said thousands now has been withdrawn and you are apologizing for lying that i said such. thank you.

I never asserted that you said thousands. I said "hundred or thousands" which is intended for the intelligent reader to be that you believe there are multiple hundred or even thousands doing this. Since you do believe there are multiple hundreds then I feel just fine with my statement.

Why you get so worked up about "hangeroners" is beyond me. I honestly believe its probably raising your blood-pressure and you are losing sleep over this. At most you are talking about 1-3 rows further back even if your worst case scenario is coming true.

You seem to act like the people that have the following conversation are evil and are screwing over people like you:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: I agree, but I pick at 150 and I don't want to wait until 600 to pick my seats. Of course, I could just buy 4 seats instead of 2 and you could pay me for your seats. Of course, you won't accrue any extra Billiken Club points and if my wife and I die you are out of luck.

Booster 600: I'm no actuary, but the chances of you two dying are pretty slim and even if you do, its not like there is a waiting list so I'll just get some different seats. Let do it best bud.

The way the conversation should go according to Roy:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: Well sucks to be you. You should have donated more over the years. I'll waive to you from 5 rows closer.

or another Roy alternative:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: I agree, but I pick at 150 and I don't want to wait until 600 to pick my seats. Of course, I could just buy 4 seats instead of 2 and you could pay me for your seats. Of course, you won't accrue any extra Billiken Club points and if my wife and I die you are out of luck.

Booster 600: I don't think that is the moral thing to do. Some guy at 337 may have been donating in the mid $000s for all these years and I don't want him to have to sit a couple rows further back. I'd rather not sit with my best friend in the whole wide world.

[billikendave]

BDave. I have not been at the recent BC meetings to pass on what they said or didn't say. Believe that SLU has published that they reserve the right to reshuffle in 3 years. Not sure if it said every 3 years or just in 3 years. Therefore, I believe these will be your seats for the next 3 years. My take is that the reshuffle is a good PR tool which they can use now to anyone not happy. My guess is that if anyone really got screwed or if a few good donors come along, SLU has enough seats to accomodate this year and/or informally over the years. For example, I don't see all the gold seats being sold for SLU's first game. Also, by all accounts, there are plenty of Blue seats still available.

Absolutely agree that it is a way to raise money. I think reshuffling is a good thing -- especially for me personally.

Maybe its semantics and, if it is, I apologize in advance, but "reserve the right" to do something and having a plan to do something are something entirely different. I can "reserve the right" to call my next child Mary, the Queen of Scotland but doesn't mean I plan to do so. It also means that there could be no reshuffling for 20 years. My hope is some concrete rule and certainty to the process which can be relied upon a planned upon in the future.

[Cowboy]

Any idea why this reshuffling has not been formalized or put in stone?

because they don't know what needs shuffling at this point

part of the reshuffle will be at least tweaking and possibly overhauling the "colors" and the rates per "color"

but you can't announce that until you know the demand per "color"

and i guess there will be other facets of the reshuffle

not to you dave - but let's get our bitching over with regarding the initial selection before we ***** about something 3 yrs down the line

[Westy03]

I never asserted that you said thousands. I said "hundred or thousands" which is intended for the intelligent reader to be that you believe there are multiple hundred or even thousands doing this. Since you do believe there are multiple hundreds then I feel just fine with my statement.

Why you get so worked up about "hangeroners" is beyond me. I honestly believe its probably raising your blood-pressure and you are losing sleep over this. At most you are talking about 1-3 rows further back even if your worst case scenario is coming true.

You seem to act like the people that have the following conversation are evil and are screwing over people like you:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: I agree, but I pick at 150 and I don't want to wait until 600 to pick my seats. Of course, I could just buy 4 seats instead of 2 and you could pay me for your seats. Of course, you won't accrue any extra Billiken Club points and if my wife and I die you are out of luck.

Booster 600: I'm no actuary, but the chances of you two dying are pretty slim and even if you do, its not like there is a waiting list so I'll just get some different seats. Let do it best bud.

The way the conversation should go according to Roy:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: Well sucks to be you. You should have donated more over the years. I'll waive to you from 5 rows closer.

or another Roy alternative:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: I agree, but I pick at 150 and I don't want to wait until 600 to pick my seats. Of course, I could just buy 4 seats instead of 2 and you could pay me for your seats. Of course, you won't accrue any extra Billiken Club points and if my wife and I die you are out of luck.

Booster 600: I don't think that is the moral thing to do. Some guy at 337 may have been donating in the mid $000s for all these years and I don't want him to have to sit a couple rows further back. I'd rather not sit with my best friend in the whole wide world.

I got a pretty good chuckle out of this. Thanks

[billikendave]

i am not defending the action of our athletic dept. i have been accused (and rightfully so) of bashing our very small time athletic dept. everything you have said is true.

I know you aren't and which is why I tried not to single you out!

[billikendave]

because they don't know what needs shuffling at this point

part of the reshuffle will be at least tweaking and possibly overhauling the "colors" and the rates per "color"

but you can't announce that until you know the demand per "color"

and i guess there will be other facets of the reshuffle

not to you dave - but let's get our bitching over with regarding the initial selection before we ***** about something 3 yrs down the line

Agreed to everything you said as far as details. However, if you say merely say "we will reshuffle in 4 years."

I can live with getting screwed (even though I don't think I am going to) for a couple years. But when it may be for 20 years then I and others may get a little anxious.

[billiken_roy]

I never asserted that you said thousands. I said "hundred or thousands" which is intended for the intelligent reader to be that you believe there are multiple hundred or even thousands doing this. Since you do believe there are multiple hundreds then I feel just fine with my statement.

Why you get so worked up about "hangeroners" is beyond me. I honestly believe its probably raising your blood-pressure and you are losing sleep over this. At most you are talking about 1-3 rows further back even if your worst case scenario is coming true.

You seem to act like the people that have the following conversation are evil and are screwing over people like you:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: I agree, but I pick at 150 and I don't want to wait until 600 to pick my seats. Of course, I could just buy 4 seats instead of 2 and you could pay me for your seats. Of course, you won't accrue any extra Billiken Club points and if my wife and I die you are out of luck.

Booster 600: I'm no actuary, but the chances of you two dying are pretty slim and even if you do, its not like there is a waiting list so I'll just get some different seats. Let do it best bud.

The way the conversation should go according to Roy:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: Well sucks to be you. You should have donated more over the years. I'll waive to you from 5 rows closer.

or another Roy alternative:

Booster 600: Hey booster 150, I've known you since we went to school together and sat next to you for the last 15 years. Its a shame we won't sit next to eachother anymore at the games.

Booster 150: I agree, but I pick at 150 and I don't want to wait until 600 to pick my seats. Of course, I could just buy 4 seats instead of 2 and you could pay me for your seats. Of course, you won't accrue any extra Billiken Club points and if my wife and I die you are out of luck.

Booster 600: I don't think that is the moral thing to do. Some guy at 337 may have been donating in the mid $000s for all these years and I don't want him to have to sit a couple rows further back. I'd rather not sit with my best friend in the whole wide world.

actually, while the exact context is a little draconian, i pretty much agree with the concept that the first conversation is indeed evil and the latter two is closer to what should be. sorry if that hurts your feelings. i bet it really bummed you out that my son is buying his own seats and started joining the billiken club three years ago in order to create a priority number to help himself instead of begging me to buy them for him. god it must be horrible to hear about people following the rules.

[kshoe]

I got a pretty good chuckle out of this. Thanks

That was certainly the intention.

Hopefully people won't look through the whole thing for one word they don't like and accuse me of lying.

[billiken_roy]

That was certainly the intention.

Hopefully people won't look through the whole thing for one word they don't like and accuse me of lying.

the one word is what made it a lie and was the decoration that set off your comment. you know that. you are being a total jerk now.

[Cowboy]

Agreed to everything you said as far as details. However, if you say merely say "we will reshuffle in 4 years."

I can live with getting screwed (even though I don't think I am going to) for a couple years. But when it may be for 20 years then I and others may get a little anxious.

if you mean there is a chance the reshuffle won't take place in 3 yrs, from what i was told at seat selection the 3 yr reshuffle will happen, the details are not settled as again a large part of the equation is demand

[bonwich]

Ahh, I love the off-season, when we can have civilized, rational discussions.

Two of the data points floating around in this thread strike me as screwy. Reading back, I see "5,500 season ticket holders" and "over 2,000 accounts." For every account picking 8, there would have to be eight accounts picking 2, and those numbers just don't seem to work out unless you strongly work in Roy's Hanger-on Conspiracy Theory and several hundred account holders aren't actually going to buy tickets. (The other reason I say this is that my legacy account came in at about 1,200, meaning that the Billiken Club cutoff is somewhere between there and 1,100. I'd be a little surprised that we still have 800-900 non-Billiken-Club season ticket holders at this stage of the game.)

If the 5,500 number is accurate, I also would have liked to have seen the U. block out certain sections so that various other sections were forced full. It sure would be nice to force visiting blocks to sit in, for example, 219-221 -- and for it to be impossible for visiting fans to find any 100-level seating.