Westy03 Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 If Kevin was on Duke and playing against high level competition every night the oppistions game plan wouldnt be focused on stopping Kevin. Saying this I think that Kevin would be getting just as many open looks now as he would if he were on Duke. Just a thought I would throw that out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Would you say Kevin is the focus of the opponents game plan right now? If anything Ian is the one suffering from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 greece, you picked out three games. two of the games north carolina and siu, lisch played hurt. the other, he sat out about 10 minutes in foul trouble. i can pick out individual games against some of the best teams in the a-10 that kevin looked like an nba player. same with scheyer. i can also pick out games against low division one teams that scheyer has a stat line that would get him benched by vashon. that doesnt necessarily give us the definitive answer as to whom is better. individual games arent always a true indication of the truth. i will say this, if you remember in the north carolina game, lisch had a steal from lawson and took off down the floor and then put an around the back reverse layup move on ellington that barely missed as he was fouled. i have never seen sheyer do anything like that. the point is, i am confused how you cant just watch the two play and see lisch is the stronger player at this time. that might be because kevin is a year older, but all in all, i'd take lisch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 i dont think ian is near the focal point of our opponents he was the first half of the year. it is lisch and liddell. there is a reason why ian's numbers have finally started to bounce back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westy03 Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 IV is the focus of the defense but the best guard defender is always on lisch and he still gets 20-25pts a night when healthy. If he was on duke the other teams defense would most likely double McRoberts(just like IV) and have the best perimeter defender on Sheyer or Nelson. So I think Kevin wouldnt average 20-25 but he would get about 15-20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 I picked the three team that we have played this year that I would call high-level opponents. I said it is up to Kevin and Tommie to prove me wrong and prove that they can contribute against that level of competition, I am not saying they can't but I have not seen it. You gotta be kidding me with this Lisch is better than Scheyer talk, you are crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westy03 Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Scheyer may be a little better player but to say Lisch wouldnt start at Duke is just as crazy. Paulus couldnt hold Kevins jock strap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 the last three games i have watched, ian is not drawing near the double attention he was earlier in the year. he is left to one defender more than we have seen in over a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westy03 Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 I have noticed the same thing, but I went with what I saw for the majority of the year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 lisch had 27 and 18 vs houston who has very good guards. he had 28 vs charlotte and was guarded by nba quality guards. scheyer had 8,5, and 7 in over 30 minutes per game against the likes of unc greensboro, holy cross and temple. as far as i know, those teams have no one that could start for slu at the guard position. btw, your style of writing sure reminds one of rajun cajun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Kevin when healthy is a better player than Scheyer, right now. No doubt about it. Roy, I have no doubt it is Rajun. I noticed the similarities as soon as FGWL started posting again after Cajun announced his retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 >lisch had 27 and 18 vs houston who has very good guards. he >had 28 vs charlotte and was guarded by nba quality guards. Charlotte's main problem all year has been their inablity to defend anybody. The NBA is not a realistic possiblity for any of Charlotte's guards. >scheyer had 8,5, and 7 in over 30 minutes per game against >the likes of unc greensboro, holy cross and temple. as far >as i know, those teams have no one that could start for slu >at the guard position. Roy, Either Mark Tyndale or Dionte Christmas will likely be 1st team all-conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 You gotta understand, I absolutely love Scheyer's game. I am a huge fan of Lisch, I just don't know that I would put him on the same level as Scheyer and a large reason for that is the fact that we are playing in the A-10 and I don't see him go up against what I would consider high-level competition. I live in Houston and watch them on the regular, so I won't let you get away with saying they have quality guards that actually play defense. Also, nobody on Charlotte is NBA caliber and if nobody on Temple could start for SLU, why did we lose to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Since when does Charlotte have NBA-caliber guards? Roy, I know you've been watching Kevin play ball since he was a fetus and that you love to see an IL-side player make good, but I think your bias is stronger than your arguments. I would absolutely love to see KL and TL be All-Americans and guys who can go toe to toe with all the big shots at Duke and like programs, but they aren't there yet. They might be next year, who knows. I have known all along how great both of them are for our program, but to prove that you are among the nation's best at a program that isn't in or near the top 25 like ours, you have to produce EVERY night and completely dominate the A10. I think they are two of the best players in the conference, easily, but both have been inconsistent this year. Maybe because of injuries to KL, but he has had some rough nights against so-so teams. TL has not been as consistent as he should be either, and I think it's more a problem of getting him to play hard for 40 minutes and strengthen his drive and focus. Scheyer and the other guys at Duke have their off nights, but they have already proven themselves as McDonald's All-Americans in high school, and then they get to college and start every game against the best competition they can possibly play. Our guys have some work to do to prove they're at that level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Time Billiken Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 There's not much comparison between anybody on SLU and Duke. Duke plays in the ACC. SLU is in the A10. The two teams plays against vastly different competition. Liddell and Lisch could sit on the bench for Duke, but there's not a snowballs chance in hell that they'd start. If SLU's backcourt is better then Dukes then why does SLU struggle against the Bonnies of the A10. Doesn't make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 You gotta understand, those who make these absurd comments are the same people who attend every Billiken Club Meeting to tell Soderberg how great he is and to flog his dolphin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 cajun, maybe we lost to temple because kevin severly injured his calf that night and hardly played. cajun, i am surprised you havent brought your favorite player steffan hannah into this conversation yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 sheyer would have never been a mcd all american had he not committed to duke. plenty of duke's recruits have been named soley because folks think "well if they are going to duke they must be great". i like deanglo alexander and leemire goldwire a lot. i will be shocked if they arent at nba draft camps. just because charlotte has underachieved and maybe the rest of the lineup hasnt come through doesnt mean goldwire and alexander are also not good players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Billikens Fan Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 >sheyer would have never been a mcd all american had he not >committed to duke. What???????????????? Scheyer led his team to the large school state title in Illinois as a junior. His team was 29-2 and he led them in scoring, including a 48 point performance in the Supersectional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaleJarr Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 I just think it is impossible to compare a kid who plays for an average team in the A-10 with a kid who starts for a top 20 team that plays in the best conference in the country. Scheyer is a better all around player than Lisch without question. To say otherwise is being ignorant to the difference in the level these kids are competing at. I would say to Kevin and Tommie; prove me wrong, show me you are on those kids level. The numbers just don't support your thoughts. I think it's a bit disingenuous to compare Tommie's and Kevin's number vs. as you put it Top 20 teams, especially when Tommie and Kevin are not playing with Top 20 teammates. How would Jon Scheyer fare if he were placed on this Billiken team. When you face Top 20 teams you usually have to account for every position on the floor. This allows for more opportunities for you skilled players. In addition the level of competition faced in practice can only sharpen your skills. I seriously doubt Tommie and Kevin are facing equal competition in practice. Your going to have games where you are not as sharp. I know one thing about Tommie. Every time he has faced top competition on equal footing, whether it be HS ball, summer camps, or whatever he has excelled. This is Jon Scheyer's statline vs one of those average A-10(Temple) teams at Cameron: 7 points 3/10 fgs 1/7 3ptfgs 1 rebs 4 assists & 2stls What does this prove? Absolutely nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 You don't think he was overmatched at A&M? Maybe the feed wasn't as good in St. Louis as it was sitting in Reed Arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 It is good having you back showing how little you truly know about college basketball. Maybe you should try getting out of Belleville a little more. Jon Scheyer is the fourth-leading scorer in Illinois High School basketball history and is the only player in Illinois history to finish his career ranked in the all-time top 10 in points, steals, and assists. He was twice named the Gatorade state POY. He averaged 32 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, and 3 steals in his senior season. How was this kid ever named a McDonald's All-American or for that fact a first team Parade All-American or named to the Jordan All-America team or chosen to be a member of the U.S. Junior National team? I am sure all of this was because of his decision to sign with Duke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaleJarr Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 >You don't think he was overmatched at A&M? Maybe the feed >wasn't as good in St. Louis as it was sitting in Reed Arena. I guess Tom Penders and I were the only people who saw that game for what is was. A rugby contest that was dominated by A&M due to their superior physical strength. Despite the various no calls Tommie still scored in double figures, so no I don't believe he was overmatched. The point of this thread is somewhat useless as Kevin and Tommie are not being judged on an equal scale. Advantages of Duke Coaching Training Competition Supporting Cast/Teammates It's no great mystery that schools like Duke and its players have success at the college level. My question is why doesn't that success translate at the next level? If these players are simply great because they play at Duke, then success at the next level should be mandatory. I'm not trying to take anything away from Scheyer and kids like him, but don't look at his favorable position as a college player and become amazed at his success. That's to be expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 I think Tommie and Kevin are very good basketball players and are among the top players in the A-10, I just think it is a little ridiculous to make the claim that they would be starting for a top team in a top conference like Duke. You don't think that Tommie and Kevin would be getting mugged like they did against SIU and A&M playing at places like UNC and Maryland? I am not sure they would be able to match their numbers in the ACC where they are middle of the pack athletes and talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaleJarr Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 >I think Tommie and Kevin are very good basketball players >and are among the top players in the A-10, I just think it >is a little ridiculous to make the claim that they would be >starting for a top team in a top conference like Duke. You >don't think that Tommie and Kevin would be getting mugged >like they did against SIU and A&M playing at places like UNC >and Maryland? I am not sure they would be able to match >their numbers in the ACC where they are middle of the pack >athletes and talents. I don't about Kevin, but Tommie's athletic skills testing at the 2004 NBA Players Assn. Camp were above middle of the pack. So I don't know where you are getting this from. Would Tommie start at Duke, probably not as a freshmen, however he would play significant minutes as a sophomore. Duke tends to be a place where high school all-americans go to have mediocre careers. See Sean Dockery as a recent example. You seem to follow the belief that a person that attends Duke is great and anyone that attends SLU cannot be worth much. Tommie is at SLU because that is where he wanted to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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