The Saga Continues

[FromGreeceWithLove]

I was asking the question out of curiosity, not to say that you cannot comment on the situation unless you know Floyd or the kids personally. For me I find it hard to comment too much on the situation of the kids. I lived a sheltered life in West County and attended a private all-boys school where the only black person we saw came in at 4:00 pm to clean the school. I cannot relate to the type of life of many of those students at Vashon have, at my highschool being poor was not driving an SUV and the thought of not going to college never crossed our minds. The only kid I really know from the V well is Dwayne Polk and he is one of the nicest kids you will ever meet. He is extremely polite and well-spoken, a truly classy individual. Having spoken to Dwayne numerous times about Floyd Irons, I have to disagree 100% with your last couple statements. Floyd Irons would go to town for any one of his kids and for you to say he used those kids and did not care about them beyond the basketball court is a lie. To say that he didn't do anything for those kids is absurd and I would implore you to talk to Dwayne. Floyd made a lot of mistake, but to say he did not care about those kids is wrong.

[Billiken Rich]

"I lived a sheltered life in West County and attended a private all-boys school where the only black person we saw came in at 4:00 pm to clean the school."

What a great environment to learn about the world (and probably a crock of poo to boot.) The more you talk the less I'd care to meet you and the less I think of you as a human being.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

That statement was an exaggeration, if you want to talk about diversity and worldly knowledge we can discuss that at another time. The point I was making is that I don't know what these kids go thru and neither do the vast majority of posters on this board. I am not going to sit here and say its a tragedy that many of Floyd's kids don't go to college or have ended up in prison and place the blame on Floyd for that. And Rich, thanks for calling me out as a person once again.

[brianstl]

Hey, Dwayne is a great kid. But he is still a kid. The older Dwayne gets the more ihs perspective might change.

I think it is sort of funny that the two people who might best state Floyd's case really have said much about it. I think it is funny that you have DJ leading the defense of Floyd. A guy who never played, went to Vashon, or even has kids in the city schools. No, he is a guy who has made money off the tragedy that is Vashon.Where have been AB and Jimmy. Not much from them except the generic comment of support.

If he really cared about these kids, he would make sure the had the grades and proper test prep to succeed on the next level. If they did not he would not play them. But, that would affect the programs winning percentage. That would mess with Floyd's fame, wealth and prestige. You wouldn't want to help a kid, if it would hurt the program.

Floyd doesn't really care about his kids at all.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

I do not think having DJ on your side is of any real significance, he is a C level StL media guy who plays the race card at any possible time. I do not know this to be fact, but I am under the impression that DJ lives near where I grew up and that his children are in the Parkway School District. I recall seeing DJ working out at Parkway South on many occassions. Being a proud graduate of the Parkway School system, this would be the only wise thing I have seen DJ do.

I do not feel passionate enough about Floyd Irons to go further with this debate. I just think that many of the things you are saying are easy to say, but hard to do. I only know recent players at the V and it seems like of those kids, many of them have had the chance to move on from the V. Jimmy, Polk, and Franklin have never had issues with remaining eligible that I am aware of and Washington and the Hill brothers will be playing on the D-1 level next year.

[Pistol]

Yeah, let's just end this Irons mess altogether. I'm sick of VTIME ruling the board.

The fact is that Floyd will always have a mixed legacy. He had an incredible winning percentage, state titles, some successful players, and helped get a new Vashon built.

On the other hand, he was very unethical in his behavior, egotistical, corrupt, had a number of players fail to reach their potential as players and citizens, and showed no concern for the academics of his players nor the rest of the student body.

But now it's over, Vashon has to move on, and so does this board.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

That sums up why I consider myself on the fence consdiering the topic perfectly well Pistol.

[biggdadiek]

i couldnt even make it first the past couple of sentences...it is like a third grader wrote that...

[kevinfootes]

you were talking about spending money for poor coverage on public access cable and I got confused.

[VTIME]

>sorry box i disagree. he had his hands on the majority of

>the best basketball players in the city each year. all he

>had to do was emphasize academics and responsibility and

>doing the right thing instead of basketball. he already

>knew he had the means of getting them out. he only had to

>change their mindset. he didnt. he was obviously only

>worried about winning basketball games. that is why i

>almost puke everytime i hear "it is about the children".

>

>sure there are a sprinkling of good stories. but those kids

>like dwayne polk were getting out regardless. what is sad

>to me is how much better could those kids have been had a

>real man that truly was looking out for their best interest

>was there.

How can you say that he had nothing to do with Polk getting out. You say kids like Polk were getting out regardless. Why? He stressed academics. You can't make a kid change who doesnt want to change. I was always an honor student, and I always had close friends who I tried to talk into doing there work. What was Floyd supposed to do, kick them off the team and ruin any chance they had of going to college at all. They could at least showcase their talents at JUCO. Someone in this thread asked if anyone knew some Vashon players personally. I know Will Frankin personally. I first met him playing in the West End League after my junior year, which was his sophomore year at Beaumont. Currently you have many former Irons players in college: Darren Boone, Antonio Scaife, Williams Dwayne Polk, Johnny Hill, Bobby Hill, Curtis Muse, Kenny Daniels, James Washington, Joseph Pembleton, and Brian Roach. 8 of those guys are playing D1 and only one of them Muse went D1 via the JUCO route. Those 8 division 1 guys are in the last 5 graduating classes. Sounds like guys have been qualifying as of late and with the state of Vashon's academics dont you think that those guys worked hard in school? Also I know for a fact that it's the ACT more than in-school work that keeps the kids out of college.

[moytoy12]

"I was always an honor student, and I always had close friends who I tried to talk into doing there work."

Hey honor student, look up the proper use of there/their.

And yes, you kick people off the team that fail to keep up their academic work. That's exactly what you do. It's school, not recess. If you don't prepare these kids to at least have some modicum of responsibility for their high school academics, how do you expect that they will be successful in college? I'm guessing this acceptance of academic responsibility doesn't happen overnight.

"He stressed academics."

How do you know? You admit to knowing one vashon player personally. How do you know irons stressed academics?

[FromGreeceWithLove]

I do not know of many highschool basketball coaches who would kick their players off the team for not keeping up their academic work. I would think as long as a kid is not flunking out of school, very few coaches are going to suspend a player. From what V has written, it appears that his kids are graduating from the V and moving on to college of late. I don't think it is the job of the basketball coach to ensure his players are all honor students. He should enforce that his kids are in class and putting in effort and not being disruptive, but I would not expect anything more than that. I am sure Steiner at DeSmet, Kelvin Lee at Chaminade, and Bob McCormack at CB are no different. As long as their kids are going to class and not failing out, you can bet they will be on the court come Friday night.

[moytoy12]

I (mis)interpreted vtime's rhetorical question to read something along the lines of "does the coach kick a kid off the team if the kid is failing or not otherwise maintaining the grade point average required to stay on the court?"

"I don't think it is the job of the basketball coach to ensure his players are all honor students."

I agree. But if folks are going to appoint a high school bball coach as a saint, then maybe the coach should ensure those kids are honor students...

[brianstl]

Not honor students moytoy, but how about just being prepared to survive at the next level. V, Polk was a good kid and a good student before he ever got to Vashon.

[moytoy12]

Agreed. A well rounded coach (not even one that rises to the level of a saint) would hopefully do his/her best to prepare the kids for the next level.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

From what V has posted, it sounds like these kids are graduating from Vashon and moving onto college. It sounds like they are prepared to survive at the next level.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

I agree 100% with that and was not saying otherwise.

[billiken_roy]

vtime said,

"How can you say that he had nothing to do with Polk getting out. You say kids like Polk were getting out regardless. Why?"

because polk approached his academics from the very beginning with a higher priority. obviously that had to do with some parental input, but still i am convinced dwayne would have succeeded regardless of where he went to high school and who his coach was."

vtime said,

"What was Floyd supposed to do, kick them off the team and ruin any chance they had of going to college at all."

ironically, if floyd had shown some tough love early on in his career and indeed kicked kids off that didnt want to do the academics, my bet is that it would have sent a message to future wolverines that in order to play for the mighty vashon program you better be serious about your schoolwork. so to answer your question, yes, kick them off and maybe you save more future kids.

vtime said,

"They could at least showcase their talents at JUCO."

see here is where you are missing the whole point. "showcasing their talent at juco doesnt fix their academic distress. a player goes to a juco and still doesnt put in the time or take the right classes will still be on the outside looking in at most division one schools. so unless the player you are talking about is a surefire nba player, your showcasing is no help to the student athletes.

vtime said,

" Also I know for a fact that it's the ACT more than in-school work that keeps the kids out of college.

and i guess you think in order to get a 28 on an act test you can just waltz into the testing room and do it? to succeed on the act you better have been doing your classroom work as well. the reason the act keeps kids out is when students are in a bogus academic setting that is just giving grades and not presenting the material needed to be able to pass the act. if you know of an honor student that struggled with the act, i would immediately question that school the student in question came from. obviously the school did not prepare that student for the next level and gave away the grades.

[billiken_roy]

that isnt true at the three belleville schools. i know for a fact that all three watch their athletes academically and strongly enforce standards. some more than others, but it is indeed enforced.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

How do they enforce it out of curiosity? Where I went to highschool, the only real enforcing as far as academics dealt with passing classes and attending school and this should be the norm at all places. How does Belleville go beyond that? I agree that coaches should encourage their players to put time and effort into school, but to what end? Athletes are not typically the smartest group of people and as long as they are going to class and passing that is good enough in my opinion. And from the looks of things the basketball players from Vashon are doing that of late.

[billiken_roy]

at belleville west, i believe all the coaches get weekly reports showing the grades of their student athletes. if a player falls below their guidelines which in all cases is at minimum the ihsa academic requirements, that player is suspended from the team both practice and events until the grades are brought up to the standards of that particular coach.

my daughter's sports (basketball and softball) both have standards above the ihsa guidelines. and players have been suspended in both sports for not staying above the line. i know that players from the boys sports have also been suspended in the past for not keeping up.

belleville east and althoff basically do the same thing. my son went to althoff and there were student athletes that were being suspended. last year at belleville east, jeremy felton, who is simply one of the best athletes in the st louis area, was probably suspended for academics during the basketball season more than he wasnt. while he was at althoff in his freshman and sophomore seasons, he spent significant time on the ineligible list as well. sitting out a national player like felton alone should be proof enough that there is no pass through system at the schools.

note: felton has apparently now transferred to belleville west for this upcoming year. ironically, it is my belief that west is probably the most stringent academically of the three schools. so it will be interesting to see how he does this senior season.

[brianstl]

Wrong, these kids continue to flunk out or be kicked out of school for academic or behavioral problems. Examples would be Tunstall, the Nash twins, Shelton, Bobo, and the kid at MoBap just to name a few.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

Roy, that is interesting. I think the system they have in place sounds very good and they should be comended for that. I had never heard of schools really enforcing anything above the minimum, good for them. Sounds like they really stick to their guns as well if they are willing to suspend their best player.

[VTIME]

>Wrong, these kids continue to flunk out or be kicked out of

>school for academic or behavioral problems. Examples would

>be Tunstall, the Nash twins, Shelton, Bobo, and the kid at

>MoBap just to name a few.

My post refers to the last 5 graduating classes having 8 guys D1 that played for Flyod. Where do the guys you listed fit in?

[Billiken Rich]

You're welcome. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. There is tragedy there for sure. Could Floyd have prevented more than he did? Who knows. He did seem to be pretty self centered in my not-terribly-informed opinion. It wouldn't surprise me if Floyd is a cad.