How long will SLU be in the A-10?

[Bay Area Billiken]

When SLU first joined the MCC, Marquette and Dayton were independents. Then Dayton joined the MCC, followed by Marquette. So yes, both Dayton and Marquette were members of the MCC. DePaul stayed an independent until the Great Midwest was formed.

[kevinfootes]

St. Louis isn't an appealling-enough market when compared to NY, DC, Philly, Chicago, etc., and we haven't had the recent success of a Marquette, Cincy. Let's hope SLU continues to improve, because that's the only was we'll get into any new, big conference.

Heck, our games are on Charter, so it's not like some big ESPN game of the week between DePaul and Villanova would draw big ratings here anyway.

It's unfortunate because SLU ahs been better than DePaul for most of the last 20 years or so but won't get any attention like they get.

Winning games will do much better than hoping for some sort of Catholic U. sympathy.

[kevinfootes]

I know they weren't in it for long before the GMC started. I must be getting old!

[Bay Area Billiken]

Marquette did go through a fairly long down period under Dukiet and Deane. Marquette has not always been on top. There was a long dry spell between McGuire/Raymonds and Crean. Marquette fans seem to have short memories of that. But true Billikens remember it well.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Marquette wasn't in the MCC very long. A short time later the GMC was formed.

[kevinfootes]

You are correct. I had a brain freeze on them!

[Bay Area Billiken]

In my opinion, you are correct.

SLU needs to win and have a successful program. I hope SLU has a strong program at the time of the next conference shifting.

[Box and Won]

Nice recap. I'd be totally happy to reform the Great Midwest, with the addition of Xavier!

[Bay Area Billiken]

I agree re the Great Midwest. That league was a good one and could have really been a top league if Louisville could have been coaxed to join, instead of the de facto merger with the Metro.

[MusicCityBilliken]

When the Metro started SLU was one of the big promoters.

As I re-call, the SLU's AD at the time (I believe his name was Albus) was Metro's first commissioner. The headquarters for the league was in St. Louis. Albus was a real go getter. I remember he was very instrumental in bringing '73 NCAA's to Arena. Also, was a major player bringing (what was billed as) 'the game of the decade' to the Arena in '74 or '75. That was the UCLA-NC State game. NC State had John Thompson, Monte Towe (a 5' 7" guard) and Tommie Burleson.

[dirty deli]

Let me introduce myself, I am longtime flyer fan who remembers games with SLU going back at least 30 years. I have started to visit this fine board when SLU joined the A-10 reguarly and this thread prompted me to post.On the "Catholic Conference" this conference may not have the national appeal without other non catholic institutions. The league could be seen as elitist so to speak also.On Marquette and DePaul, as far as revenue sharing in the big east, this league is clearly being driven by the BCS schools. In 2010 this league contract is set to be reviewed possibly renewed. My guess is the BCS schools won't want to share the loot with non BCS schools. The end result is MU and DU may have no choice but to look at other options for league affiliation. The possibilty of a league with non parochial schools such as UNCC, UMass, RI, some CUSA schools could be intriguing on a national scale. Finally the poster "courtside" mentioned that UD has to step it up, hey we were a disaster in the Great Midwest league, our athletic dept. was in transition from a strong AD (Tom Frericks).We righted the ship in the mid 90's with new AD and coach, and since 2000 we have had 3 NCAA appearance and 2 NIT's. This year was a disater, (transferred PG, injuries, poor oncourt leadership, but future on paper is bright). If we continue like we have this past season we can expect to be left out. I hope that is not the case. Slu looks to be strong with those talented freshman and V in the middle next year and years to come.I am looking forward to continue the rivalry with with the Billiken's. PS...ND is interesting also but i believe that ND will go to the B-10 if any league moves involving them happens.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Deli, I always liked Dayton (your as close to being our main rival in the A-10 as we are going to get).

When Great Midwest (which BTW I thought was a great conference and I wish it still existed) became new larger CUSA. Why was Dayton not invited? I never understood that because you have such a great tradition and fan base.

[Bay Area Billiken]

It is my understanding that Cincinnati objected to Dayton getting into the GMC. SLU continued to play Dayton every year in the non-conference schedule.

[Billiken Law]

>Marquette did go through a fairly long down period under

>Dukiet and Deane. Marquette has not always been on top.

>There was a long dry spell between McGuire/Raymonds and

>Crean. Marquette fans seem to have short memories of that.

>But true Billikens remember it well.

Dukeit was a 3 year disaster. O'Neill came in, took MU to a conference title, 2 tourneys and a Sweet 16 (when was SLU's last Sweet 16?) and Deane won 100 games in 5 years (86 in his first 4), 2 NCAA's, NIT finals and quarterfinals, and won a CUSA tourney. Pretty good for "down years."

[courtside]

I hope the best for SLU as anyone else for many many years, and have been close to several people in the program over the years...but...let's keep emotions out of it.

Louisville? They were in the FINAL FOUR last year and 3 straight NCAA appearances under Pitino...Are you serious?

Cincy? Had 12 straight NCAA appearances...3 elite 8's and a Final Four. And came one win away from this year's NCAA tourney...though many thought they were snubbed this year...and did it without one of their best player's for last half of year.

You've got to be kidding me...do you really think UL and UC will fall off and not do well due to ONE year of NIT???? Should I post Pitino's career history for you here or not? WOW.

Notre Dame is Notre Dame...tough bleep if you don't like it. They will always be ND....get over it. That is never going to change. And they went to 3 straight NCAA's under Brey including Sweet 16 a few years ago...before 2 NIT's in his 5 years...

Marquette....3 NCAA appearances under Crean and a Final Four so far, new facilities, got into Big East Conference...record crowds(which don't interest me as much as others)...Since playing in Bradley Center in late 80's-present Marquette and SLU have been top 25 or better in attendance many times

DePaul...I will skip legendary Ray Meyer...and start with Joey Meyer...7 NCAA's 3 NIT's....DePaul made some mistakes with hires...i.e. Kennedy who did take them to NCAA and won a league title, and Leitao, a great hire, took them to NCAA's before heading to UVA back East....

All of these schools won reg season conference titles at different times in recent history and SLU has none. Not under Grawer, Spoon or since.

I didn't go into the rich history of UL hoops, UC hoops, ND hoops, Marquette hoops, or even DePaul hoops...who did well under Leito, NCAA's etc...and their deep history as well....ALL of these schools have rich histories and recent success as well.

SLU went to NCAA 3 times under Spoon, and once under Romar. Spoon never won a reg season conf title in his 7 years. He did well. ...during that time, SLU and Marquette traded home and home wins often....Kevin O'Neill, omitted went multiple times to NCAA's and had a sweet 16 as well, had a handful of NBA players....and the last half of the 90's Deane was their coach and went 2-3 times to NCAA tourney and deep NIT NYC runs...his problem though winning 100 games in that short time was his long term recruiting. O'Neill was a masterful recruiter...he recruited all of those Sean Elliott studs at Arizona...Steve Kerr etc...and carried on to Marquette through Deane.....Deane actually was/is a very good x's o's coach. His problem is his recruiting faded, and felt Marquette was a make the NCAA team....but the school decided it wanted more than that. ...I think he said something like Marquette will never make another final four and it pissed off his superiors...he was a fat cat in dream job...wasn't good enough. If a SLU coach won 100 games in 5 years with multiple NCAA's etc...he wouldn't get fired. SLU and Marquette had some nice home and home games and both temas won games during part of the 7 year Spoon era...Problem for SLU is not doing anything before it, not doing anything after it....and not having long hoops history...Maguire, Raymonds etc...Marquette was not good under Bob Dukiet during part of the 1980's NIT teams....

I had to look it up as to when... 1988-1991 MCC for Marquette.

SLU had 3 NIT's in 10 years under Grawer during the 80's...and he thankfully saved SLU hoops.

SLU also had 3 great seasons in the 1940's.

If you sit back and compare SLU overall to all of the above teams...and I kindly didn't go the McGuire, Meyer, Crum, Phelps etc...days...and take in all of that instead of dismissing it as not a big deal....then take a closer look at the time since....combine long history, past history, and recent history....

Basically you are looking at Grawer saving the program from going away from D-I and 3 NIT's...Spoon 3 NCAA's best 2nd round...and Romar won the conf tourney...This is since 1950.

If SLU can win the A-10...make the NCAA...and do it a few times...it will help their cause as far as timing goes when/if they get a chance to latch onto some of the bigger boys, and get into the mix, try to build something for the long term...make a commitment to winning hoops.

[courtside]

Actually Footes..no SLU hasn't come close to DePaul...not trying to single you out...but often times other people, different people different times just throw out random things and they are accepted as truth.

People need to wake up and get off of the SLU defensive...again not you Footes...

SLU has made NCAA's 4 times since teams stopped going to NIT many decades ago....Obviously DePaul went yearly under Ray Meyer...but last 20 years includes 7 appearances for Joey Meyer, 3 NIT's for Joey Meyer...an NCAA under Kennedy and Leitao and NIT's under both. Multiple reg season titles too...SLU has not won one in this time.

[dirty deli]

It would be easy to blame UC, and that may have been part of it. I think the bigger picture was lack of funding and no focus on what it would take to be competitive in the Great Midwest BB and in other sports. Since the current Ad has been in place it has been his vision that the entire athletic department has to be healthy. Success in soccer both men's and women (not to rival yours though), volleyball, baseball, has been growing. New facilities, with rumors from time to time of a new basketball facility if the new league comes a calling. Our success financially is driven by men's bb and the healthier that is the better our chance for success. If you are familar with UD, they have recently accquired all the land NCR manufacturing base was located. That would be about all the land west of the U to the river that borders the Arena. While this is potentially being developed for University interests, also the land will be used for private business also. The Arena now currently is being surrounded by football practice facility, baseball stadium,soccer practice facility, softball facility on the west and southern borders. To clarify, i am not trying to peddle UD but there is a lot of upgrading going on, and the next few years will be interesting. As i write this since 2000 the U has spent in the range of 15 mill. to upgrade the arena. Does this fly in the face of a new facility? Maybe, but it would not suprise me that a new basketball facility would be built if the right conditions exist built around the growth of mens bb and other sports.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Older SLU history is better than your post would make it sound. SLU won the NIT in 1948, and participated in the NIT in 1949, 1951, 1953, 1955, 1956, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1963, and 1965. SLU was in the NCAA in 1952 and 1957.

Throughout the 1950's SLU had good teams. SLU had some good teams in the 1960's and early 1970's (3 good years in a row under Bob Polk, 17-12, tied for first in 1970-71, 18-8 in 1971-72, and 19-7 in 1972-73). But SLU played in those times in the Missouri Valley Conference with the likes of Louisville and Cincinnati. And the NCAA then only took the conference champion. In contrast, Marquette was an independent then.

The dark ages of Billiken Basketball started with the 1973-74 season and ended under Rich Grawer. Grawer's 1985-86 team went 18-12 to stop the darkness once and hopefully for all.

One Rich Grawer team was 25-10 (1986-87); another was 27-10 (in 1988-89). The latter team was the NIT runner-up, and was snubbed by the NCAA with a 23-9 record on Selection Sunday because the MCC was perceived to be a one bid league, and Xavier in those days was always in SLU's way. The 1989-90 team was also NCAA runner-up. Grawer was 3-5 v. Marquette, but lost 3 times to Marquette during his last year. Grawer was 1-2 v. DePaul, but those 2 losses were also during his last year (5-23), when SLU was playing many freshmen.

Spoon's SLU teams were 10-7 v. Marquette, 9-5 v. DePaul. Spoon had 3 NCAA teams (1994, 1995, and 1998) and 1 NIT team (1996).

Lorenzo Romar was only 1-5 v. Marquette, but 4-3 v. DePaul. Romar's first team in 2000 won the C-USA Tournament, beating DePaul in the championship game, and played in the NCAA Tournament.

Brad Soderberg is 2-4 v. Marquette and 3-3 v. DePaul. Soderberg's first 2 teams played in the NIT.

In summation, since Rich Grawer's days at SLU, SLU went 16-21 v. Marquette and 17-13 v. DePaul. Thus, SLU more than held its own with both of them. Spoon, in particular, proved that he could beat Marquette.

[Bay Area Billiken]

The 16 team Big East just had its first year.

I have no doubt that Louisville will be back. But when that happens, someone else in the Big East will be excluded from the NCAA. The NCAA is not going to take 16 Big East teams. And four of them (i.e. DePaul this year) are not even going to make the Big East Tournament. How many years will schools like Big East charter members St. John's and Providence accept not even making the Big East Tournament? The Big East has said that it does not want to expand that conference tournament, as it does not want to wear out the top 4 teams with 4 games in 4 days heading into the NCAA.

Believe me, I know all about Marquette's history. For decades Marquette lived in the past. There is no way that program under Dukiet (clearly), O'Neill, or Deane was at the same level it was under Al McGuire. And whether Marquette apologists like it or not, SLU was able to beat Marquette during the Dukiet, O'Neill, and Deane years. I'm not saying that Marquette didn't win its share too over SLU, mostly in Milwaukee. I have the record book too.

I'm not even comparing the history of the schools in hoops, other than to say that Marquette did not dominate that series with SLU at all. The same goes for DePaul.

[billiken_roy]

what other programs televise their weekday games on nbc, cbs, abc, fox or wb affiliates?

[courtside]

You like many on the board are eerily obssessed with Marquette. I don't really care about one team that much. Marquette moved on to the Big East and SLU didn't let it go. Is it somehow Marquette's fault for taking the best situation offered to them? ..or the other school bitterness too. SLU had the opportunity for many decades to step up their hoops program and didn't do it. Grawer saved program...got them to close to NCAA, before falling back...and Spoon got them to NCAA entry level, before falling back. Actually I would say Spoon and Deane were very similar...two guys who were at heir destination dream jobs...had some early success....and then were too busy enjoying it when people started expecting more. The difference since then is level of cimmitment from the two schools to win in hoops.

I know SLU had good teams in the late 40's 50's etc..and they were noted.

The point is how SLU does overall as a program.....as opposed to what they did 13 years 8 months 11 days 24 minutes, 9 seconds ago against one team or a couple of teams.

It is like saying, ...many GW was an 8 seed, shoot SLU played them so tough at GW this year in that one game...man we are as good as them this year.

Or maybe Dave Leitao's DePaul team that lost to UCONN a few years ago in NCAA....and UCONN went on to win National Title....do the sit around and say ...man...if only we didn't meet them til the championship game....we could have been national champs or runners up.

and so on....

Somehow that doesn't measure up to overall team success with conference titles, NCAA appearances, NCAA deep runs...etc...I remember when Larry Hughes put up 40 one day...I believe it was against Marquette...here I will help you out with that one...

I responded to the recent decades of ball...not going into Ray Meyer, Denny Crum Digger Phelps Al McGuire....etc...merely statig their rich histories without having to post all of their accolades.

and you being up the late 40's to 60's....

Should I go back and add several decade ago info for the otehr schools too?

C'mon....I was being more than fair.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Obsessed? Hardly. First, as an academic institution, Saint Louis University is rated ahead of Marquette. I have 2 good friends from the hometown and a brother-in-law who are all Marquette graduates.

Ok, we're talking here about basketball, not academics. Of course, Marquette has had a better basketball program than SLU. But it is not like Marquette is light years ahead of SLU like Marquette people would have us believe. The head to head competition itself between the two schools proves that to not be the case.

But I, and others on this board, will defend the alma mater against this smug, false elitism mentality of Marquette apologists.

In the past, I actually advocated trying to keep good relations with Marquette with the future in mind.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Finally, I cannot allow some coach like Mike Deane to be equated with Charlie Spoonhour. Please. It's not even close there.

P.S. Yes, I am well aware of the opponent and venue in the game in which Larry Hughes scored 40 points.

[billiken_roy]

it is amazing that deane won more than he lost. i once saw him use all his timeouts in the first 5 minutes of a game and he broke a chair on the last one.

i sat behind their bench at the conference tourney one year and was greatly amused by his timeouts. only pat kennedy's words of wisdom could be considered on the same level.

it is a tribute to the marquette players in that era that they in fact won what they did imo.

[courtside]

As far as plays and x's and o's of the game Deane was/is a Jud Heathcoate guy....and Deane always designed good plays that got results, and his teams played very well defensively.

Deane was animated on side lines, which rubbed people the wrong way from afar. I agree with the timeouts. But if you look beyond that, his strengths were x's and o's.

His problem were other than a Cordell Henry, and Brian Wardle, he didn't want to go out and recruit like Spoon. He got complacent after achieving success. Dukiet was a small school Northeast coach...though only at their school briefly...then with the Deane hire, ....he actually did well coming from similar area...but he thought if I get really smart academic kids and coach em up, it would be good enough. And by any average standards ....going 100-55 in 5 years and making multiple NCAA's NIt final fours etc...it's pretty good. There were plenty of stiffs on those teams.

Their geographies may have been different, accents different....but both had a few NCAA teams...were fat cats...liked to have a beer and a good time...and faded away...not embracing the challenge of recruiting over time to continue to raise the level to deeper NCAA runs. They are a lot more similar than you might think. Maybe memory has some only considering home SLU games vs road games ofr opponent...and we all know how much tougher it is to win on road etc...or maybe people pick certain games from memory...or like you said Deane's sometimes radical time out usage.

Spoon went 122-90 in seven years at SLU...In fairness to Spoon, Deane did enter with much more to work with as Kevin O'Neill was a strong recruiter.(His problem is people skills) I read once where O'Neil sent a recruit 500 letters, and din't get him. He coahced NBA players Tony Smith(didn't recruit him though)...Jim McIlvaine, Amal McCaskill, Chris Crawford etc...and a host of other good players.