Vashon is number 1?

[BLIKNS]

Was told that the USA today poll had Vashon #1.True?thoughts.

[Basketbill]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/basketball/super25.htm

[courtside]

Any positive publicity for STL area HS hoops is good.(At least it wasn't a story about Floyd taking his kids off of the floor somewhere)

With that said, I can't take the mythical ranking seriously, especially USA Today. Teams are rewarded for record regardless of competition. Take a good look at their schedule. One would think in order to be highly nationally ranked, one would play highly nationally ranked competition. It isn't the case with this year's Vashon team. I only look at this year's team, obviously a good one, and this year's schedule. now, USA Today also looks at last year's record when the played small schools to help their ranking. There actually are several other HS rankings where Vashon isn't ranked at all, and others where they are ranked, but much lower. Vashon did have a nice showing at a pre-season summer/fall tourney at Chicago back to school jam, finishing second. But this was teams mixed with HS players and not. That could have helped them too. Unfortuantely their regular season schedule consists of a lot of weak area opponents, combined with some mediocre out of area opponents, with a few decent games sprinkled in.....Niagra NYC will be their ONLY test this season.

I think they will be state favorites, as the area is down in general of strong teams this year. I am not all that impressed with Webster, Lafayette, etc...decent area teams not much more than that, ...and the usually solid Parkways or MCC schools are not having decent teams at all.

I have actually seen it in other cities where a school dominates local competition gets zero losses or close to it, and has achieved a USA Today national ranking.

A lot of other areas have more dpeth of elite teams that play each other often and makes the likelihood of a near perfect record not as good. Take STL area soccer for example...tough for any team to go unbeaten as national pre-season number one CBC found out both losing some games, but still having overall success.

So, I think it is nice for the average Joe reading the paper because it mentions STL. Vashon has a strong team with a a very good coach. A lot of people dislike the long list of poor behavior exhibited by their coach and extending to the V nation, and city kids going there as opposed to other city schools, etc...

I think it would be more interesting for some of those kids or other kids to go on to post high school success and beyond.

[aj_arete]

but come on now. Floyd Irons is a GREAT coach, not a very good coach. The fact that few of his players ever achieve great success after high school reinforces his greatness.

I have a problem with his antics and childish behavior at times, but his teams are the most fundamentally sound teams I've seen in St. Louis the last few years. No other St. Louis team comes close to them in terms of FUNDAMENTALS, and that includes your favorite team of DeSmet. I won't discuss Illinois, since I rarely venture over there, but let's give Irons some props. Yes, he recruits, but recruiting is rampant throughout the St. Louis area, particularly among private schools.

Yes, private schools don't have any specific boundaries restricting them, but they are specifically 'targeting' basketball players for their school. Until the MSHSAA is properly funded to enforce ALL illegal forms of recruiting, I think it's unfair to single out Floyd Irons.

[kshoe]

Floyd?

All he said was Vashon plays a weaker schedule then many of the "national" teams and that has lead to this high ranking. I tend to agree as I doubt they could compete with the Oak Hills of the world. I also would venture that past Vashon teams are better than this version yet they played a tougher schedule (I remember Jimmy's senior year they lost to Lebron's team).

Also, Vashon is now 4A correct? If so its a real shame that we won't get to see a Poplar Bluff - Vashon match-up at state this year.

[kshoe]

and it says Vashon is 5A. When did the change occur?

[aj_arete]

It changed this year. By the way, DeSmet and other schools were in favor of the formula that dropped Vashon down to 4A. They got tired of Vashon kicking their butts. Fortunately, Vashon's enrollment increased enough to go back to 5A. Floyd Irons was consistent in his displeasure at having to drop in classification. He's on regularly on Sunday nights on 1600 am, if you want to know what he's thinking.

I agree that Vashon's schedule is relatively weak, but I take issue with Courtside saying he's a very good coach. I've heard him discuss Vashon before, so I know his take. He thinks Floyd Irons wins more because of his talent and not coaching acumen. Now I won't dispute that Irons MIGHT be recruiting, but watch his teams. They are well-drilled and execute seamlessly. Therefore, I consider him a little better than just very good.

[bonwich]

...here's the summary of reclassifications prior to the 2004 season

AREA FOOTBALL CLASSIFICATION CHANGES

Moving up to Class 6: Vianney, Riverview, Hazelwood East

Moving up to Class 5: Chaminade, Vashon, Eureka, Washington

Moving up to Class 4: St. Dominic, Duchesne, Timberland, Festus, Lutheran South

Moving up to Class 3: Trinity, St. Pius X, John Burroughs, Lutheran North, Berkeley

Moving up to Class 2: Cardinal Ritter

Moving down to Class 5: McCluer, Roosevelt

Moving down to Class 4: Parkway North

Moving down to Class 3: Jennings

Moving down to Class 2: Winfield

ENROLLMENT BREAKS

Class ........ 2002-2003 2004-2005

Class 6 ...... 1,750-2,858 1,775-3,321

Class 5 ...... 1,342-1,738 1,361-1,773

Class 4 ...... 804-1,341 821-1,337

Class 3 ...... 463-797 484-817

Class 2 ...... 250-453 249-476*

Class 1 ...... 61-248 55-249

8-man ........ 58-153 46-139**

* Two schools, Louisiana and Westran, had enrollments of 249, the break for Class 1 and Class 2. In order to keep 64-team brackets in each class, Westran was placed in Class 2, Louisiana in Class 1, based on Westran's larger enrollment in the 2002-03 period.

** Schools with 8-man enrollment figures can choose to play 11-man football in Class 1.

[billiken_roy]

still aj, the growing pains that jimmy mckinney and dwayne polk had entering college makes one question what they learned. while i tend to agree that floyd is a good basketball coach, i also tend to think that he has more talent top to bottom than most other schools. maybe he doesnt have the one tip top stud (however i have heard that powell might be that talent) but he has kids on the bench that would be starting for most other schools.

[aj_arete]

sound player at Mizzou. I realize that's not saying much, but look at him more closely. He's one of the few players, who knows how to make the basic pass into the post. He puts it in Kleiza's hands at the right place and time. In contrast, Jason Horton is deficient in this area.

I think the problem with McKinney is that he's just not ATHLETIC enough to excel in college. As for defense, he plays the passing lanes well, but he's been beaten off the dribble a few times, especially last year. I see this more as an athletic, quickness issue and not a fundamental flaw. He hasn't shot the ball that well this year, but that's more of a skill and not a fundamental issue.

Admittedly, I haven't watched SLU that much lately, but it appears that Polk's A/TO ratio is real good. Considering the lack of punch inside, it's even better. Plus, you have to admit that he's adjusting to a new system and a new level of ball. Therefore, he's going to have growing pains. Yes, he hasn't shot the ball well, but again that's a skill.

[billiken_roy]

what i am referring to is that when both jimmy mac and dwayne started their freshmen seasons, far too often they didnt seem to know what to do when they crossed the center line. polk has started to come around and i thought he looked a lot better the last couple of games. mckinney was still stagnating the offense his second year at mi$$ouri and in fact most seemed to think that $nyder would have handed over the point duties to pulley had he been eligible immediately. of course we later saw that pulley had regressed terribly since his slu days and was worse than mckinney.

now that mckinney is playing the wing, he seems plenty athletic to me. i have seen a number of just great drives to the basket and dunk finishes this year. i.e. it wasnt an athletic thing.

i do commend dwayne polk on his turnovers or lack of them.

[MUTGR]

I think McKinney is athletic enough to be an above average player. I don't think he has the combination of overwhelming athletic ability and skill you need to be an impact player, i.e. someone who scores 15 plus points a game or better. Unfortunately, that's what everyones' expectation was, and he simply isn't that kind of player. He is a good college player, IMHO, and will occassionaly give you flashes of something more, but not consistently.

I think sometimes we don't realize that the overall level of competition in St. Louis, or in Missouri for that matter, is not that high year in and year out.

[OrlandoStewart]

Good point Roy, all I know is that i watched Irons rin a practice this past summer as the sky hawks coach, and it was boring and slow, the players even looked board. He spent a whole hour on pressing a team, the practice just seemed unorganized, it look like he did not have a clue what he was doing, at the professional level it is different you cant get all the talent like does at vashon

[aj_arete]

Totally different situation there. You're talking about rosters that are changing each night and having to acclimate new players to your system on a constant basis.

I haven't seen the Skyhawks practice, but it would make sense that Irons would start with the basics and that it might be slower or less organized than at a high school level. Now it would be interesting to see how other USBL coaches operate and see if they were able to implement their system in a more efficient manner.

[aj_arete]

For one, playing the wing and point guard requires different skill sets and responsibilities. I do know that McKinney NEVER played the point guard position at Vashon, so what Quin asked him to do his first two years were foreign to him. Now I did think McKinney would make a smoother adjustment, however I overestimated his ballhandling SKILL. Do you remember how many times he would dribble the ball with the back to the basket his first two years at Mizzou. It's too hard to see the court and run the offense when that occurs. He just wasn't proficient in that area, but he has worked hard on it this offseason. That's one area he's improved on.

Now I've heard you mention that Polk doesn't appear to know what he's doing in half-court sets. Maybe we need to see a game together and you can point out what you mean by that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just don't understand. Is he not seeing the court? Is he not organizing the team well? I don't know. What have the coaches said about that? I'd be interested in their thoughts.

[kshoe]

that he has dominated the highschool basketball scene (including most teams they play from out of state) for decades yet he hasn't had much D1 talent over the years. The man can coach.

[kshoe]

I seem to remember Floyd intentionally using Jimmy at the point his senior year of highschool as he repeatedly said it was the position he was going to play in college and he wanted him to get some experience. He spent the summer before his senior year running the point at the summer camps and his struggles were part of the reason his rankings dropped that summer. (Tigerboard conspiracy theorists will tell you its the anti-Mizzou bias). Anybody else have that recollection?

[billiken_roy]

kshoe, i understand your point, but remember, none of the teams he has competed against year in and year out have had d-1 talent to speak of either. you had the cardinal ritter teams of woods, carrawell and white. vashon didnt beat them. you had hughes and tatum, vashon didnt beat them. while it wasnt maybe d-1 talent, the talent they had top to bottom was significantly better every year. floyd probably has kids sitting on the bench that would start for just about any team around here except maybe howell and lafeyette this year and it has been that way forever. 6-8 players just below d-1 are going to win against a team that might have 1 d-1 player and then no one else to speak of.

not saying he isnt a good coach. man there are some bad ones out there at the high school level. but i think as far as pure teachers of the game, i would say that porter and hollander are probably better. my favorite basketball teacher in the area is dennis reuter at waterloo gibault. the guy at carbondale does a great job with similar talent to vashon, unfortunately he has to face chicago at the end so that keeps him from winning it all. it is far too early in his career, but i have been blown away by the job the young guy at belleville west is doing. i watched that team before the season at a practice and i just didnt see them winning much of anything, plus the guy is a head coach for the first time. all he has done is go 12-4 so far.

i think floyd is easily among the top 10 coaches in th area, but if i had to pick a guy to coach my high school he wouldnt be my first choice.

[kshoe]

the year he retired (to become a principal I believe) in the early 90's the team started the season 4-10 or something like that and in mid-season Floyd decided to come back. Low and behold, Vashon made it to the state semis that season. I don't know how he did it but he made them a winner again.

[billiken_roy]

i agree with kshoe. jimmy's senior year floyd made a concentrated effort to have mckinney play the point and he indeed did play point guard in the summer as well.

aj, if i said polk doesnt know what he is doing at the point, that was overstated. he was playing imo tentative and not forcing the action enough for a player of his vast talents. i have said from the first day i saw dwayne he is a splendid athlete. i just felt he should become more of a nate archibaldlike player that forces the action and then reacts to the defense. too often before last week he seemed content to give it to a wing and let someone else start things in the halfcourt.

vs tcu, though, i dont think that was the case at all. he was a very good point guard last saturday nite imo.

[billiken_roy]

maybe the other guy really sucked. if i remember correctly, that team had bonner's nephew and james williams on it and compared to area talent was very good imo.

[billiken_roy]

no way would i hold the skyhawks against irons. there is a reason these knuckleheads arent in the big leagues or in college anymore and they are all out to sell themselves. at best a coach at that level is nothing more than a spokesman and babysitter probably that gets to decide who is in the game. that's about the extent of it.

[MUTGR]

I don't often defend Snyder these days, but there is an attempt to rewrite history that some how he made poor Jimmy play pg, when Jimmy wasn't suited for it. That was the master plan. Quin and Floyd and Jimmy decided Jimmy was going to play in the NBA someday, and at 6'3", his best opportunity to do that was point guard. Turns out he was not particularly well suited for it, but everyone was in agreement at the time.

[aj_arete]

Polk playing point guard during McKinney's senior year, but I definitely didn't watch every Vashon game. I also recall Floyd Irons himself saying that McKinney never played the point guard position at Vashon, but maybe I misunderstood him.

I do agree with MUTGR that McKinney was told that he would play PG at Mizzou during his freshman year and that it would be the best position for him at the next level. But then Irons comes on radio saying that Quin reneged on his promise to McKinney that he'd be playing shooting guard last year.

[billiken_roy]

jimmy mac sr call in and say that just recently $nyder has told jimmy to take over. he now has the green light to score now when apparently in the past he did not. it will be interesting to see how that plays out.