slufanskip Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I'm in between on Whitey ... you don't have to hit home runs to win. I think he was a very good Mgr ... but he was inconsistent and wether that is due to him overacheiving in good years or underacheiving in lean years is up to debate ... I think it is probably a little of both. We were always very good defensively and had adequate starting pitching with a great bullpen and closer ... not much pop ... but a lot of doubles and plenty of speed in a huge ballpark. My opinion of him went down quite a bit when he quit on the team. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 cheesy said, "Is 7th in all time wins right now." and i would venture to say is even higher in the all-time rankings for most losses. total wins means nothing other than he was smart enough to not get fired and continued to go to work every day. do you think that whitey had to quit managing in the early 90's? if he was still a manager somewhere now, there is no doubt he would have more wins careerwise than larussa. let the genius win about 4 more pennants and then he can ask to sit at the same table as whitey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 the team and especially the ownership quit on whitey first. read his books. (which btw are fantastic reads) as to your comment about the bullpen, i will agree on sutter, i wont agree the following years. bullpen by committee, a rookie, with less than a couple of months experienced pitching in the big game of the kc series. no the bullpens were nothing to brag about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 was managing. It takes 7 wins to win the pennant now, whereas it only used to take 4. and what is this nonsense about winning 4 more pennants? Whitey only won 3 pennants, all with the cardinals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 the royals were in 3 world series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 The royals made the playoffs 3 times, losing each series to the New York Yankees. Unless you're talking about some other league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 i stand corrected. i guess i was thinking that was the world series playing against the yankmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 That was an unfortunate stretch for the royals. Losing 3-2, 3-2, and then 3-1 to the hated yankees every year. They got revenge in 1980, but Herzog was gone by then. I think it was Frey who was managing then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 It was easier to win the pennant then only because there were fewer teams in each league. The odds were better then. You can make the argument that now it is easier because more teams are eligible to win the pennant at the end of the season. Old days only two teams could play for the pennant in the playoffs, now four teams can play for it. Many very, very good teams never got the chance to play in the championship series because there was no wild card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Regardless of experience ... Worrell was good back then. Whitey had nothing to do with that. Regardless of ownership ... you don't quit on your team mid season. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 More teams are in the playoffs now ... but only one team wins the pennant. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 Perhaps Whitey should have done a little more digging into the facts. The fact is...Moises Alou was the Cardinals choice OVER Tino, but Alou didn't want to come to STL to play and chose the Cubs. I know everyone likes to think that all players droll to come to play in St. Louis, and many would like to....but not everybody. Roberto Alomar took far less money than STL offered him because he preferred to go to the D-Backs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 There is an extra round to make the WS now...so I hope we are only comparing mgrs within their particular eras and not outside. I am a tough critic for who should and should not be a hall of famer...and Hernandez is a tough call, right on the line...I would disagree with the assessment that he is far from a hof caliber player. Many many people believe he should be in the hof, and it is difficult to argue when broken down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 I was a big fan of Whitey like a lot of others, but to say his ego isn't as big as LaRussa's would be silly. People need to turn the page sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 Did you honestly make a comparison, even if slightly of Hernandez to Sammy Sosa??? Huh? Sosa plays in an entirely different era. If you are the dominant player of one of the dominant players in your era at your position....that is more along the lines of my hof criteria. Comparing eras is pointless. Let alone differnt positions....etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 I agree with Roy here...don't understand the logic that TLR would get in before Whitey with current numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 There are a lot of overrated baseball stats...like RBI's for example......uh you have to be fortunate to be up when guys are on base. and batting avg. I'll take on base percentage and slugging percentage over batting avg any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triangle andToo Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 If there is one thing that Triangle knows more about than college basketball it is baseball (Too knows, you think that is impossible - but it is Troo). Listen up- The most overlooked part of a major league roster is middle relief. If you look at the rosters, 85% of them have jerks. Walt has assembled the finest bullpen in the major leagues. He couldn't afford top starting pitchers so he went for the bullpen which is always underpriced (except for a proven closer), and he more than accomplished the task. Now for Tony, he has Too realize that he has this veteran relief staff - these guys are used Too pitching a lot of innings. His old formula of resting relief pitchers and eliminating them from games does not hold this year. It is his job Too manage a 25 man roster for every game, not a 22 or 23 man roster. King, Traveres, and Kline need Too pitch every 2 out of 3 games - Eldred 2 out of 4 games. IZZy probably needs Too pitch 2 of 3-5 games -(avg. for the season)- only use Simo in mop up rolls (a lot ahead or a lot behind). These guys are proven relievers and loss of control means lack of work. Tony seems Too have shown the most confidence in Lincoln for innings in getting both right and lefthanders out but he has Too start showing this confidence in all of his relievers - they are a very veteran proven staff. Our starters are only going Too go so long at this time of the season - Triangle would prefer only 4-5-6 innings - then turn it over Too the pen. These guys can't sit on their butts for a couple of days and then come in with pin point precision and then sit on their collective butts for another couple of games including off days. Did you all see Farnsworth trying Too get out 60 year old Julio Franco yesterday - Houston's GM tried Too save money by trading Billy Wagner, then changed boats mid-stream by signing Petit and "The Rocket", now they are stuck with a crap bullpen (Dotel - give Too a break). Everyone picks our Cards Too finish 3rd behind the Cubs and the ASStros but both have no proven closer and their middle relief is bad. Both the Cubs and the ASStros have no where near the offense that our Cards have which means they are probably going Too be involved in a lot of lower scoring close games - pressure on the bullpens as the season wears on. Walt knew what he was doing with a weaker starting pitching staff, now it is up Too Tony Too manage the relief corps properly - innings, innings, innings - so it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triangle andToo Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Whitey is always very good at telling people (whoever will listen) what he WOULD HAVE DONE - except for the 83-84-86 and 88 seasons. The fact is - he walked out of his contract, deserted his players - during a season and has never managed again. Although he will never ever admit it - he made a big mistake in walking out on that team and the fans of St. Louis, it probably cost him the Hall of Fame. He was branded a quitter. so it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triangle andToo Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 It's the batting order stupid - where you hit in the lineup determines what is the most important stat. Baseball is different from other sports, stats or different in importance in the batting order. Where would a player be if he hit 40 dingers and had only 40 RBIs. Batting average is the most overated stat. You can load the bases every inning (from the first place hitter Too the last place hitter) but if you don't have those RBI guys - forget it. There is a stat that combines RBIs with sluggling percentage, most important. so it goes....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 If you think that rbis are anything but a subjective stat. The most "important" stat for a hitter is probably OPS (OBP+SLG). Barry Bonds was the best player in baseball last year, and he only had 90 rbis last year. "Where would a player be if he hit 40 dingers and had only 40 RBIs." So it's the player's fault that no one is on base when he's hitting home runs? I guess Mike Matheny should affect how we rate Albert Pujols as a hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I agree it probably isn't #1 ... but it is good. Chicago has a proven closer Borowski had 33 saves last year with an era under 3.0 and almost a k per inning. Not a big name but looks good to me. We cannot overly rely on our bullpen we need our starters to go 6 ... not 4,5 or 6. They also need to obviously keep us in the game. Offensively we are off to a very good start ... but we have a lot of questions ... Will Ray's shortened swing keep him more consistent, will his body hold up? How many games will Reggie play? Can Womack continue to get on base and play well defensively. We aren't as bad as we showed against Milwaulkee ... but we also won't hit like we did against Arizona all year. Baseball is a game of ups and downs and streaks ... prolong the positive and minimize the negatives. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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