courtside Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Officially offering my services to the St. Louis Cardinals. What I offer: One inning of pitched shut out baseball. What I need: Only 3-4 weeks of preparation. Where can I be contacted: Right here at billikens.com...free publicity to the this site. That's right, one inning by me of shut-out baseball, when needed. This spot is sponsored by Mike "We'll just fix that" Martz, by minor league prospects association of America, by Julian Tavarrez' agent(securing $ 2 million smackers plus somehow), by Ray "Walk" King, Jeff Fassero, Juan Agosto(sorry that one is for my brother), and citizens for America. Take it or leave it, but I'll get ya one inning of shut out baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 My seats weren't that great, but he looked like he did pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Aren't there 160 regular season games left? I wouldn't worry too much. From the sound of the Cardinal message boards and talk shows, you would think it was August and we were twenty games out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Law Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 The Tigers (my childhood team) is 3-0. If the Brewers win tonight they're 3-0. Can the end be near??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Cody McKay beat you to the punch. Nepotism abounds, but at least he got us a 1-2-3 inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 I was referencing Tavarez' shocking money figures. I will be curious if head case Brett Tomko can do anything on $1 million this year. Just having a little fun. I was rather surprised at all the boos in the first series. But I think in a way it is good. The people have spoken. Cards have gotten a free pass for not making the Ws since 1987, and not winning it in over 20 years. And now on paper going in, are well below what people have come to expect talent-wise. Williams was way overworked last year and isn't going to be healthy all year. Morris hasn't been a #1 or even #2 last couple of years. Suppan is bad, period. To not develop any young minor league pitchers or talent in many many years is poor at best. I am a big optimist, but even I am still searching for the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 If the Cards limp out of the starting gate at let's say 10-20 or something p!ss poor like that record wise...does the ownership group have the nads to summarily dismiss TLR in this, the last year of his contract. If they do, I hope they axe his buddy Walt Jockstrap too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 While Jockety and LaRussa have gutted the birds' minor league system over the last seven years, they have received some good value in return. As I recall, McGwire, Edmonds, Renteria, and Rolen were all acquired in whole or part with minor leagues prospects. The black mark in their management is the Tino signing. We essentially received zero benefit from that signing, but it cost us over $20 million. That money could have been much better spent on an outfielder, pitching, or prospects. I hated the Tino signing weeks before it ever happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Cardinals nation wanted....no, NEEDED Giambi. We wanted the elite 1st baseman to replace McGwire, and McGwire gave us money back to do so. Giambi signed over his soul to steinbrenner, and Jocketty was left needing a first baseman to sign. Tino Martinez was coming off a year in which he hit .280, slugged 34 home runs, drove in 113, and had his most total bases since '97. No one quite realized how much of a whiner he'd turn out to be once he left his precious big apple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 at the time, whitey herzog said he would have moved albert to first base where he would have excelled rather than leave him in left where he was at best adequate and then signed moises alou instead of tino. as usual, whitey was right. whitey is the greatest baseball mind in the history of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Herzog was great, but the greatest mind in the history of the game? I think Connie Mack, John McGraw, Sparkie Anderson, and Casey Stengel might take issue with your assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 i dont think i am getting carried away. he is a fascinating man and it is amazing how right he is about talent and what he won with at both st louis and kansas city. i would like to see the likes of casey stengel or joe torre or connie mack win with a roster that had less homeruns than mark mcgwire and no hall of fame starting pitcher. the best player whitey had in st louis was a defensive shortstop. and at kc he had brett and then basically the same no hit lineup he later had as a cardinal skipper with a bunch of no name pitchers as well. i would take whitey over any manager in history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I think you're being far too harsh on the talent of the cardinals in the 80's. He did have Willie McGee (an mvp in 1985), Jack Clark (who didn't hit 45 home runs, but you could count on him for 20), and Vince Coleman, who basically hit 100 doubles for 3 years, because you couldn't catch him stealing. And I disagree with your assessment of Andujar, Tudor, Cox, Forsch, and Sutter as "no name pitchers." (Keith Hernandez should be in the hall of fame, also.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 hernandez had one co-mvp season. he never even hit 200 homers for his career. had he kept away from the nose candy, maybe he could have approached hall of fame status, but i would hardly put him even in the same state as cooperstown. ok, maybe the pitching staff wasnt no name, but they again had no hall of fame type pitchers. the closest they had to a hall of famer (and i believe he should be in the hall if for no other reason than he was instrumental in changing the use of relievers)was sutter. typically the teams that get to the world series, when you look back years later, there are more than one defensive standout that makes the hall of fame on that particular roster. whitey got to the world series i believe 6x between the cards and royals. only ozzie and brett are in the hall to show for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 ever, in my opinion. He also managed to get 2,000+ hits, 400+ doubles, and he was always a threat offensively. He was a 5 time all-star, an 11 time gold glover, an MVP, top 10 in the MVP voting 4 times, he was always top 10 in on base percentage, and he always got on base as much as the top 10 guys in the league. No, his offense wasn't as good as 1st basemen of our era, or many other era's, but his defense was good enough to warrant inclusion in the hall. I mean, Ozzie wasn't exactly sparkling on offense, either. And since when do you need hall of fame pitchers to win the world series? Who on the Angels will be in the hall of fame? Do you see anyone on the Marlins last year as a lock for the hall of fame? Herzog also managed to take pretty much the same roster from 1982 to a 4th place finish in 1983. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I liked Whitey as a Mgr and I would say that I liked him much better than the current Legend in his own mind at the Cards helm. However, there were some ups and downs in Whitey's managerial tenure that keep me from deifying the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 cheesy said, "ever, in my opinion. He also managed to get 2,000+ hits, 400+ doubles, and he was always a threat offensively. He was a 5 time all-star, an 11 time gold glover, an MVP, top 10 in the MVP voting 4 times, he was always top 10 in on base percentage, and he always got on base as much as the top 10 guys in the league. No, his offense wasn't as good as 1st basemen of our era, or many other era's, but his defense was good enough to warrant inclusion in the hall. I mean, Ozzie wasn't exactly sparkling on offense, either." i wont argue how good of a defensive first baseman hernandez was. admittedly he was the best defensive first basemen during his career. but he wasnt a game changing first baseman like ozzie was a shortstop. and his offensive stats while good, are not hall caliber. 500 homeruns, 3000 hits, those are the numbers that get the attention of the hall voters. not 142 homers and 2000+ hits. hell sammy sosa will end up with more homers than hernandez had homers, triples and doubles. cheesy said, "And since when do you need hall of fame pitchers to win the world series? Who on the Angels will be in the hall of fame? Do you see anyone on the Marlins last year as a lock for the hall of fame?" do you think the angels will be back to the world series 2 more times in the next 5 years? i dont. same with the marlins. repeat at least getting there before comparing the marlins and angels to the cards of the 80's. that said, i bet whitey would have killed for those young arms the marlins have now. cheesy said, "Herzog also managed to take pretty much the same roster from 1982 to a 4th place finish in 1983." sure did. just shows how much the cardinals overachieved the year before with the very average lineup they put out there day after day. no other manager could have gotten to the world series 3x with the cardinal lineups of the 80's. but let's not forget that your above hero, hernandez, was probably no clubhouse leader by then with his drug problem. he was traded in the middle of season in a horrible deal. it was rare for whitey to come out on the short end of a trade, i saw that as proof hernandez had become a cancer in the clubhouse that whitey just had to get rid of him to try to save the team. too late. same with lonnie smith who was later revealed to have developed the same addiction as hernandez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I don't think he made them overachieve, I think he made them underachieve in '83. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I find it interesting that you give Herzog credit for the opinion that Pujols should be moved to first and we should have signed an outfiedler. Nearly everyone I know who follows the Cardinals believed that same thing, and don't know if any of them were aware that Whitey opined on the topic. Even Jeff Gordon wrote a column on the issue prior to the Tino signing. The Tino signing was bad because (i) his offensive numbers were inflated by the left-hander friendly dimensions of Yankee Stadium, (ii) he was near the tops in baseball in RBI CHANCES so his RBI numbers weren't as good as they appeared, (iii) a .280 average with low 30's in home runs in a CAREER YEAR isn't worth $7 million/year thereafter, and (iv) his overall value was artifically inflated by a single home run in the World Series. My rule of thumb is to never sign a star from the Yankees because their value is always overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 yeah i guess they could have hit 70 homers that year and then maybe won the pennant. how you can expect a pop gun offense to win all the time is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 And any knowledgable fan does- but they needed to get a big name guy, and he *seemed* to fit that bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 i heard whitey say it on many occasions that winter. it is no secret whitey doesnt like the genius tony. so he is willing to step up all the time and second guess him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Half of Cardinals-nation second guesses Tony for every decision. To me, Whitey just seems bitter that he's not in the hall of fame, so he's antagonizing LaRussa who will no doubt be a hall of famer once he's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 why would larussa get in and not whitey? whitey has as many world series titles and more pennants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Is 7th in all time wins right now. He could be as high as 3rd by the time his career is over. Larussa has made the playoffs 9 times. He's won 1 world series, and has 2 pennants. He'll be in the hall of fame, if only because he'll have almost 1000 more wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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