A-10 Soccer Championship Game Thread

[SLUBALLS]

Billikens play Missouri State at 7pm at SLU on Thursday. Should be a big crowd for that game. Win and we go on to Oklahoma to play Tulsa on Sunday. Northwestern or ND probably await in the third round.

http://www.ncaa.com/brackets/2009/ncaa_bra...soccer_men.html

[Bay Area Billiken]

Courtside. Assume you are referring, in part, to me as one of "These posters." Actually, I am easy to find. Not trying to hide at all. In fact, I have recently posted several times regarding basketball.

Also, believe it or not, I remain a Billiken soccer fan, I am thrilled we have won 11 of the last 13 games, hope we do well in the NCAA Tourney.... Rest assured, I am not hiding-out and secretly hoping the Bills lose.

Also, believe it or not, I fully admit that luck, good breaks, match-ups and good timing can make the difference between a win and a loss both in sports generally and with soccer in particular. Sounds like UNCC experienced may have (again I wasn't there) experienced some bad breaks, etc., lost in PK's and were eliminated from the Tourney. Sound familiar? Also, believe it not, a few bad results is no reason for a coaching change. Unlike your posts, I just don't believe that these things (bad breaks, luck, bad bounces, crowd, game atmosphere....) explain EVERY loss. I also believe that "these things" probably have HELPED us win over the years possibly as much as "these things" have HELPED us lose of the years. For someone so "objective", I cannot understand why you fail to acknowledge that sometimes SLU may have actually beat a good program b/c of "these things." Instead, SLU wins are b/c we are better (players, coaching, effort, schemes, etc.) than the opponent and SLU losses are b/c of "these things." And you still claim to be the only one objective?? Still no response from you on this comment. Guess you are just "nowhere to be found."

Congratulations to the Soccer Billikens.

I was very pleased to see on the Gametracker that SLU won the A-10 Tournament Championship. I immediately called my good friend in Ohio, a former Billiken player, who had just received the good news himself.

Now, beat Mo. State on Thursday night, and then beat Tulsa, RPI or not, on Sunday.

That RPI really seems like an irrelevant statistic in college soccer.

[kwyjibo]

Billikens play Missouri State at 7pm at SLU on Thursday. Should be a big crowd for that game. Win and we go on to Oklahoma to play Tulsa on Sunday. Northwestern or ND probably await in the third round.

I like UWGB more than ND (saw ND on TV and was not impressed). Anyway, having UWGB get a little success (first time in NCAA's in 26 years) lets me remind people they used to be quite good in the 70's and early 80's. It's just they weren't Division 1 although that was misleading as they used to schedule D-1 teams and beat them (they even played a home game against the Billikens in 1976--Bills 2-0; actually they were 1-3 against the Bills during the height of their NCAA dominance beating them in 1972). Their first D-I season was 81-2 and they finished 12-1-2. They had an Italian coach, Aldo Santaga (when I am in town I go to his daughter's restaurant).

The whole reason UWGB was good at soccer was because of Vince Lombardi. He advised the young university's athletic department NOT to have a football team and that they could build a soccer team (a game Vince Lombardi loved). As a kid I grew up going to UWGB games so I trace my love of soccer back to those Phoenix teams. So I am rooting for a SLU-UWGB game.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Re the RPI- it appears to be very important in the eyes of the NCAA in picking the field.

But in looking at the RPI, IMO it is not a good indicator in distinguishing teams in college soccer.

[UDPride]

Re the RPI- it appears to be very important in the eyes of the NCAA in picking the field.

But in looking at the RPI, IMO it is not a good indicator in distinguishing teams in college soccer.

No doubt. The committee, as always, does very little research and bases it all on the RPI -- which in a sport where you can dominate and lose -- makes very little sense.

Case in point, no one can argue with a straight face that Charlotte should have received an at-large bid while Dayton was left home. Charlotte was awarded a bid because of 90 minutes of brilliance against Wake Forest earlier in the year. Everything else they did (the other 90%), apparently did not count. The Niners had a poor last two months of the season -- including a very poor last two weeks. They finished FIFTH in the Atlantic10. Thats FIFTH. With a chance to redeem themselves in the A10 tourney to show they could return to proper form from way back in September, what do they do? The lose in the A10 Quarters to the 4th place team. So their A10 regular season was nothing impressive and their A10 tournament was a total dud.

Instead, Dayton won the A10 season outright -- unshared and all to their lonesome. They beat St. Louis in the regular season and shellacked Charlotte 3-0 about three weeks ago. They also showed themselves well in the A10 tourney, reaching the finals as they should have. They also were playing their best soccer of the year unlike Charlotte who was playing their worst. The Flyers had won 14 of 15 matches heading into the A10 Championship game.

Dayton's RPI was in the 70s, mostly from a weak non-con and the 0-3-1 start. But after that the rolled. I'm not against anyone making the argument that UD should have stayed home. They were squarely on the fence. But if Dayton stays home, Charlotte MUST stay home. What the committee basically said was:

"Your conference means nothing, your postseason conference tourney means nothing, your head-to-head means nothing, and your last 10 games mean nothing. All that matters is if you had a signature non-con win and your RPI says you are as good or better than you really are."

Well hell, what's left? That's 80% of your season right there. They can't have it both ways. You can't say the A10 is so abysmal that even the outright season champ and tourney runner-up is not good enough, but at the same time say the FIFTH PLACE team in that same conference IS because the league is so tough. Which is it? If the league is so weak, finishing FIFTH is an atrocity. If the league is that good, finishing FIRST should count even more.

It all came down to RPI and nothing else. RPI in soccer is like RPI in a game of blackjack. In most other sports, when you dominate the play, you win comfortably. In soccer, you can dominate for a slew of games and never win one. Its like the committee didnt even crack a book open and do some minor research.

Anyways, good luck to SLU and the FIFTH PLACE Charlotte Niners in the NCAA 1st Round.

[Clock_Tower]

No doubt. The committee, as always, does very little research and bases it all on the RPI -- which in a sport where you can dominate and lose -- makes very little sense.

Case in point, no one can argue with a straight face that Charlotte should have received an at-large bid while Dayton was left home. Charlotte was awarded a bid because of 90 minutes of brilliance against Wake Forest earlier in the year. Everything else they did (the other 90%), apparently did not count. The Niners had a poor last two months of the season -- including a very poor last two weeks. They finished FIFTH in the Atlantic10. Thats FIFTH. With a chance to redeem themselves in the A10 tourney to show they could return to proper form from way back in September, what do they do? The lose in the A10 Quarters to the 4th place team. So their A10 regular season was nothing impressive and their A10 tournament was a total dud.

Instead, Dayton won the A10 season outright -- unshared and all to their lonesome. They beat St. Louis in the regular season and shellacked Charlotte 3-0 about three weeks ago. They also showed themselves well in the A10 tourney, reaching the finals as they should have. They also were playing their best soccer of the year unlike Charlotte who was playing their worst. The Flyers had won 14 of 15 matches heading into the A10 Championship game.

Dayton's RPI was in the 70s, mostly from a weak non-con and the 0-3-1 start. But after that the rolled. I'm not against anyone making the argument that UD should have stayed home. They were squarely on the fence. But if Dayton stays home, Charlotte MUST stay home. What the committee basically said was:

"Your conference means nothing, your postseason conference tourney means nothing, your head-to-head means nothing, and your last 10 games mean nothing. All that matters is if you had a signature non-con win and your RPI says you are as good or better than you really are."

Well hell, what's left? That's 80% of your season right there. They can't have it both ways. You can't say the A10 is so abysmal that even the outright season champ and tourney runner-up is not good enough, but at the same time say the FIFTH PLACE team in that same conference IS because the league is so tough. Which is it? If the league is so weak, finishing FIFTH is an atrocity. If the league is that good, finishing FIRST should count even more.

It all came down to RPI and nothing else. RPI in soccer is like RPI in a game of blackjack. In most other sports, when you dominate the play, you win comfortably. In soccer, you can dominate for a slew of games and never win one. Its like the committee didnt even crack a book open and do some minor research.

Anyways, good luck to SLU and the FIFTH PLACE Charlotte Niners in the NCAA 1st Round.

Good arguments. What happened at the beginning when you went 0-3-1? Maybe you just couldn't shake the rough start.

[Bay Area Billiken]

No doubt. The committee, as always, does very little research and bases it all on the RPI -- which in a sport where you can dominate and lose -- makes very little sense.

Case in point, no one can argue with a straight face that Charlotte should have received an at-large bid while Dayton was left home. Charlotte was awarded a bid because of 90 minutes of brilliance against Wake Forest earlier in the year. Everything else they did (the other 90%), apparently did not count. The Niners had a poor last two months of the season -- including a very poor last two weeks. They finished FIFTH in the Atlantic10. Thats FIFTH. With a chance to redeem themselves in the A10 tourney to show they could return to proper form from way back in September, what do they do? The lose in the A10 Quarters to the 4th place team. So their A10 regular season was nothing impressive and their A10 tournament was a total dud.

Instead, Dayton won the A10 season outright -- unshared and all to their lonesome. They beat St. Louis in the regular season and shellacked Charlotte 3-0 about three weeks ago. They also showed themselves well in the A10 tourney, reaching the finals as they should have. They also were playing their best soccer of the year unlike Charlotte who was playing their worst. The Flyers had won 14 of 15 matches heading into the A10 Championship game.

Dayton's RPI was in the 70s, mostly from a weak non-con and the 0-3-1 start. But after that the rolled. I'm not against anyone making the argument that UD should have stayed home. They were squarely on the fence. But if Dayton stays home, Charlotte MUST stay home. What the committee basically said was:

"Your conference means nothing, your postseason conference tourney means nothing, your head-to-head means nothing, and your last 10 games mean nothing. All that matters is if you had a signature non-con win and your RPI says you are as good or better than you really are."

Well hell, what's left? That's 80% of your season right there. They can't have it both ways. You can't say the A10 is so abysmal that even the outright season champ and tourney runner-up is not good enough, but at the same time say the FIFTH PLACE team in that same conference IS because the league is so tough. Which is it? If the league is so weak, finishing FIFTH is an atrocity. If the league is that good, finishing FIRST should count even more.

It all came down to RPI and nothing else. RPI in soccer is like RPI in a game of blackjack. In most other sports, when you dominate the play, you win comfortably. In soccer, you can dominate for a slew of games and never win one. Its like the committee didnt even crack a book open and do some minor research.

Anyways, good luck to SLU and the FIFTH PLACE Charlotte Niners in the NCAA 1st Round.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Dayton should be in, and Charlotte should not be in ahead of Dayton.

I agree that the 5th Place team in the A-10, that lost to the #4 seed in the first round of the conference tournament, should not be in the NCAA ahead of the 1st Place team in the regular season that lost in the conference tournament championship game.

[courtside]

Dayton should be in, and Charlotte should not be in ahead of Dayton.

I agree that the 5th Place team in the A-10, that lost to the #4 seed in the first round of the conference tournament, should not be in the NCAA ahead of the 1st Place team in the regular season that lost in the conference tournament championship game.

1) SLU ran into this problem a few years ago when it came in 1st in the A-10 regular season and didn't get an invite. Too much emphasis is placed on post season conference tourneys and less on regular season league results. But until that changes, that's how it is right now. Each league gets to choose its auto bid, reg season title or conference tourney, and most choose conference tourney, thinking the reg season title winner should also get a bid and you therefore get two bids rather than one. Most of the time that happens.

2) Charlotte had better results against better teams. Let's take a look. Charlotte played 6 non-conference top 100 RPI teams. They lost only one of those games, and won several including over the #2 RPI team in America. Dayton on the other hand played 2 RPI top 100 non-conference games. They lost one and tied one. And, the best non-conference RPI they played all season was in the 70's.

SLU to give you an example, scheduled 5 teams in the RPI top 51, non-conference, including 4 NCAA teams. And SLU adjusts and varies its schedule to play the teams that are good at the time, or that season as well.

The Atlantic 14 is too big and too unbalanced for a non-BCS league, and too much of a challenge to have all or most be competitive each year. Therefore, teams need to schedule much tougher non-conference, to make up for the bottom feeders. Leagues such as the WCC, three NCAA teams this year, have only 7 teams, and no terrible teams, but Dayton could play with any of them. The Missouri Valley is a very small league. They have two teams. Recent deep run NCAA teams UMass and Rhode Island were down this year, especially UMass.

Dayton would have been better off if its two exhibition games, Butler and UK were regular season games. Play Ohio St, play Akron, those were the good in state teams this year in Ohio. SLU played one of them. SLU schedules the big boys. If Dayton isn't ready for that or doesn't want to do that, or is struggling with that, try this: Schedule the bottom tier good BCS league teams because often times they will pull off a big upset or two in league play despite not being a strong team. This helps RPI. Example: Clemson plays in by far the best soccer conference in America, the ACC, but was down this year. SLU beat them, Charlotte tied them. Clemson has wins over Virginia and NC State. Virginia is one of the top teams in the country this year, and NC St. won the ACC conference tourney title. SLU also has a win over Washington this year, a very good program having a "down year." It was a good, solid road win. Washington this year has wins over solid non-NCAA teams, San Diego St. and Cal, and has draws with Stanford twice and UCLA.

The A-10 needs to keep its bottom teams respectable each year and schedule better.

Dayton needs to beef up its non-conference schedule and also schedule tougher and smarter. Try the better regional teams, try good teams in smaller of team conferences. Schedule one or two later in season strong non-league games. SLU needs to do this one as well.

Dayton isn't alone. San Diego St., Creighton, William & Mary and some others had their bubble burst too, and all had much better RPI's than Dayton.

Had Dayton had a tougher non-league schedule, and had achieved even just slightly better results, the A-10 would have had 3 teams.

Dayton has a good veteran team, very, NCAA worthy, but weak results against a weak non-conference schedule hurt them. No excuse for that non-conference schedule this year to even be on the bubble.

This is how it works, until it changes, ...win the conference tourney, which as everyone knows is not something any team can or should expect to do each year or most years. Or, beef up the RPI by improving or removing the bottom tier conference teams, scheduling much tougher and smarter non-conference.

Clearly the committee valued Charlotte's results vs better teams, as opposed to head to head, and reg season finish.

And, it doesn't need to be an either or, Charlotte or Dayton. There are other schools who didn't win their reg season league or conference tourney title that would be an interesting discussion as well.

[Bearvision]

I know SLU always has a respected soccer program, looking forward to seeing how the game goes. Good luck Bills...

[UDPride]

Why did the NCAA committee however place far greater emphasis on a smaller portion of the schedule? When comparing apples to apples in the A10, Charlotte fared much worse against the same teams. And despite unbalanced schedules, Dayton played SLU, Charlotte, and Bonnie, so they didn't catch a giant break by avoiding them all like Fordham did. It was a legitimate A10 regular season title.

Im not discounting the non-conference, but the committee seems to be discounting the conference entirely. Its as if Charlotte was given a giant mulligan for 2 months of the season. Those early wins were nice, but at the end of the season they couldnt finish better than fifth place in a mediocre soccer league.

There's just no way in Hades this league is good enough to send a 5th place team to the NCAAs. Not now. Not ever. You've got to at least HALFWAY show up for the league season. Second or third is even acceptable. Fifth is not acceptable. And if fifth IS acceptable, being sent home in the conference tourney quarterfinals by the 4th place teams is NOT.

Dayton has played Akron before but not in 5-6 years. Ohio State will not play Dayton in the regular season. I agree our non-con was atrocious and the slow start (we had defensive assignment issues which were obviously corrected shortly thereafter), didnt help.

I would think a committee would look at as many variables that were apples/apples comparisons however when evaluating teams. In a job that lacks so many of those fair comparisons, when you can use that apples/apples comparison, if offers distinct clarity. The league record and head-to-head do just that. And in those variables, Dayton owned Charlotte top to bottom. If Charlotte had so many great wins early on, isnt it even a larger indictment on how far they fell as the season progressed? Their trajectory got worse from beginning to end.

Ironcally, heading into the A10 Final, Dayton was ranked in the NSCAA Top-25. The loss to SLU in the Final was like falling off the end of the earth for us.

[brianstl]

Dayton didn't have any good road wins. Charlotte won on the road at both SLU and at Wake Forest. They deserved the bid more than Dayton.

[courtside]

Why did the NCAA committee however place far greater emphasis on a smaller portion of the schedule? When comparing apples to apples in the A10, Charlotte fared much worse against the same teams. And despite unbalanced schedules, Dayton played SLU, Charlotte, and Bonnie, so they didn't catch a giant break by avoiding them all like Fordham did. It was a legitimate A10 regular season title.

Im not discounting the non-conference, but the committee seems to be discounting the conference entirely. Its as if Charlotte was given a giant mulligan for 2 months of the season. Those early wins were nice, but at the end of the season they couldnt finish better than fifth place in a mediocre soccer league.

There's just no way in Hades this league is good enough to send a 5th place team to the NCAAs. Not now. Not ever. You've got to at least HALFWAY show up for the league season. Second or third is even acceptable. Fifth is not acceptable. And if fifth IS acceptable, being sent home in the conference tourney quarterfinals by the 4th place teams is NOT.

Dayton has played Akron before but not in 5-6 years. Ohio State will not play Dayton in the regular season. I agree our non-con was atrocious and the slow start (we had defensive assignment issues which were obviously corrected shortly thereafter), didnt help.

I would think a committee would look at as many variables that were apples/apples comparisons however when evaluating teams. In a job that lacks so many of those fair comparisons, when you can use that apples/apples comparison, if offers distinct clarity. The league record and head-to-head do just that. And in those variables, Dayton owned Charlotte top to bottom. If Charlotte had so many great wins early on, isnt it even a larger indictment on how far they fell as the season progressed? Their trajectory got worse from beginning to end.

Ironcally, heading into the A10 Final, Dayton was ranked in the NSCAA Top-25. The loss to SLU in the Final was like falling off the end of the earth for us.

The league schedule is not a much greater portion of the schedule. It's 9 games, a 9 game league schedule. And, Charlotte went 5-2-2 in league play.

The committee doesn't discount anything. The committee is saying the difference in league play was nowhere near the difference in non-league play between Charlotte and Dayton. And league and non-league results count. Charlotte played 6 top 100 RPI teams. Dayton played 2. Charlotte won or tied all of those games but one. Dayton went 0-1-1 in theirs. Charlotte has multiple road wins of higher caliber, Dayton does not. Getting a win over the RPI #2 team Nationally is huge in should be huge.

Schedule better and schedule smarter. It's a good opportunity to try to sustain the success of the past couple of seasons for Dayton, and, to go schedule tougher non-conference teams. There is no excuse for the Dayton non-conference schedule. It was weak, and the results were weak too. A bad combo. It's one thing to struggle against a rugged top schedule and another to struggle against a weaker one.

All games count whether it is early in season or later in season.

Future non-conference schedules, and improving the league teams and getting teams like UMass, Rhode Island, Fordham more competitive more often.

The RPI is very important. Live it, learn it, until it changes.