Grawer and SLU may finally bury the hatchet

[GOSLU68]

According to Bernie. I hope this happens. Grawer deserves to be honored for saving us from becoming a DIII program.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/co...19?OpenDocument

Yes, he really had Floyd irons, attention and did pretty well with local recruiting. Enough time has gone by that we should all recognize

that those were really good years for the Bills at the Keil. It is strange how the city could ignore the need for a venue for so many events

that are capable of hosting 7,000 to 12,000 customers and SLU has had to step up to fill the need. The other old friend we had was the

TV announcer that either preceded or worked with Joe Riley and advertised and probably owned the Grandpa Pigeon's chain. His name

escapes me but he was a big booster and I believe UMSL inherited him for awhile. He should be remembered also if they do an old timers

night. If anyone can think of his name please say-he was not a coach but a factor in the Billikens' Phoenix rising from the ashes like RG

[kevinfootes]

Yes, he really had Floyd irons, attention and did pretty well with local recruiting. Enough time has gone by that we should all recognize

that those were really good years for the Bills at the Keil. It is strange how the city could ignore the need for a venue for so many events

that are capable of hosting 7,000 to 12,000 customers and SLU has had to step up to fill the need. The other old friend we had was the

TV announcer that either preceded or worked with Joe Riley and advertised and probably owned the Grandpa Pigeon's chain. His name

escapes me but he was a big booster and I believe UMSL inherited him for awhile. He should be remembered also if they do an old timers

night. If anyone can think of his name please say-he was not a coach but a factor in the Billikens' Phoenix rising from the ashes like RG

Tom Holley...and our color commentator is named Joe "Wiley". A pretty good player. Look him up.

Just out of curiosity, how many non-SLU events will be held at Chaifetz each year? Hey, I think it's great for the city to have Chaifetz, but I wonder how many events will really go there each year. In terms of what's good for the city of St. Louis, I'm not sure the general public would have much stomach for the city building a 7-12K venue on it's own in light of the assisatnce that's been provided for the Kiel, the Dome, and the new Busch over the past 15 years. Unless you're going to book a bunch of events each month, I jsut don't see how it's worth it. Didn't SLU wind up getting some big tax breaks or something to help fund Chaifetz? That will be the city's contribution.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Evan Pderson? He came later during Spoon's tenure. Believe after Donnie Campbell and David Robinson.

Uh-uh. Perhaps you're thinking of Ryan Leuchtefeld. Pederson was a senior in '94, I believe.

http://www.billikens.com/statistics/seasonstats/92-93.htm

http://www.billikens.com/statistics/seasonstats/93-94.htm

Pederson graduated with Dobbs.

[GOSLU68]

Tom Holley...and our color commentator is named Joe "Wiley". A pretty good player. Look him up.

Just out of curiosity, how many non-SLU events will be held at Chaifetz each year? Hey, I think it's great for the city to have Chaifetz, but I wonder how many events will really go there each year. In terms of what's good for the city of St. Louis, I'm not sure the general public would have much stomach for the city building a 7-12K venue on it's own in light of the assisatnce that's been provided for the Kiel, the Dome, and the new Busch over the past 15 years. Unless you're going to book a bunch of events each month, I jsut don't see how it's worth it. Didn't SLU wind up getting some big tax breaks or something to help fund Chaifetz? That will be the city's contribution.

Tom Holley, yes and you spelled that one right, too. He was great to listen to. I guess we traded him in on the Pasta House coupons.

Thanks for the help on the proof reading-one of many problems our average season ticket holders share is older age-I joked to my God daughter when I turned 50 the only difference between 25 and 50 is aspirin; once you hit a certain age you yearn for such simple solutions. At 40 the average athlete has lost his legs. At 60 your ears, eyes, and back get questionable. When I hit 70 I'll let you know

what else I am still able to notice. Joe Wiley was just starting school when I was in grad school at SLU. I got to see Rich Niemann

(Sp?) and Eugene Moore play for SLU in the original MVC against some great Cincy and Louisville teams. Probably the last time we had a decent 4 and 5 on the floor together and the other guys just had players like the Big O and Paul Westphall (Sp?). Maybe someone else can remember another 4.5 combo that worked. RN went on to play for the Celts

and back up that center we traded right for to get Easy Ed, I think. It was a long time ago. You can let me know if I am wrong.

As for Chaifetz, I guess that little Wayne is a big deal and they had him and I thought we had or were getting the circus business.

You would think that they would put one of those permanent post-its at the top of this page for "coming attractions"-I think I'll write

a new topic and suggest it to the moderators as our way to fill the Chaifetz, thanks

[Quality Is Job 1]

Just a clarification -- Pederson was recruited by Spoon; he transferred to SLU from Northwestern after completing a Mormon mission. I believe McCauley was also a Spoon recruit.

I think you're right. That punctuates my point. The NCAA Tournament teams were largely built by Spoonhour, even though Claggett and Highmark, the lone Grawer holdovers (besides Jones, who had a minor role), were the stars.

But I don't take anything away from Grawer. If he hadn't been dismissed so rudely, I believe he would have gotten the Billikens to a place beyond where they reached in the Spoon era. Had Grawer remained the coach, along with Lee Winfield as the associate head coach, I believe the following players would all have been Billikens: Jahidi White, Kelly Thames, Loren Woods (well, maybe), Chris Carawell, Brian Grawer (obviously), an so on. And, building on that, if Larry Hughes still comes, which he probably would have, given his family situation, the program's foundation would have been established (and SLU might be in the Big East now). We'll never know, but "what coulda been"!

[kevinfootes]

Tom Holley, yes and you spelled that one right, too. He was great to listen to. I guess we traded him in on the Pasta House coupons.

Thanks for the help on the proof reading-one of many problems our average season ticket holders share is older age-I joked to my God daughter when I turned 50 the only difference between 25 and 50 is aspirin; once you hit a certain age you yearn for such simple solutions. At 40 the average athlete has lost his legs. At 60 your ears, eyes, and back get questionable. When I hit 70 I'll let you know

what else I am still able to notice. Joe Wiley was just starting school when I was in grad school at SLU. I got to see Rich Niemann

(Sp?) and Eugene Moore play for SLU in the original MVC against some great Cincy and Louisville teams. Probably the last time we had a decent 4 and 5 on the floor together and the other guys just had players like the Big O and Paul Westphall (Sp?). Maybe someone else can remember another 4.5 combo that worked. RN went on to play for the Celts

and back up that center we traded right for to get Easy Ed, I think. It was a long time ago. You can let me know if I am wrong.

As for Chaifetz, I guess that little Wayne is a big deal and they had him and I thought we had or were getting the circus business.

You would think that they would put one of those permanent post-its at the top of this page for "coming attractions"-I think I'll write

a new topic and suggest it to the moderators as our way to fill the Chaifetz, thanks

Just pulling your leg a bit...all in good fun.

[kevinfootes]

I think you're right. That punctuates my point. The NCAA Tournament teams were largely built by Spoonhour, even though Claggett and Highmark, the lone Grawer holdovers (besides Jones, who had a minor role), were the stars.

But I don't take anything away from Grawer. If he hadn't been dismissed so rudely, I believe he would have gotten the Billikens to a place beyond where they reached in the Spoon era. Had Grawer remained the coach, along with Lee Winfield as the associate head coach, I believe the following players would all have been Billikens: Jahidi White, Kelly Thames, Loren Woods (well, maybe), Chris Carawell, Brian Grawer (obviously), an so on. And, building on that, if Larry Hughes still comes, which he probably would have, given his family situation, the program's foundation would have been established (and SLU might be in the Big East now). We'll never know, but "what coulda been"!

That's a pretty bold position to take. You really think SLU would have pulled guys from Georgetown, Duke, and Wake? I'll give all of the credit in the world to what Grawer did as SLU's coach, but keep in mind that Spoon was the coach in a conference that was MUCH stronger than Grawer had to face. SLU stepped down in terms of conference when Grawer came into the picture and stepped up as he was leaving. Not to knock Rich, but he wasn't playing Louiville, Cincy, and Memphis State every year.

[GOSLU68]

I think you're right. That punctuates my point. The NCAA Tournament teams were largely built by Spoonhour, even though Claggett and Highmark, the lone Grawer holdovers (besides Jones, who had a minor role), were the stars.

Had Grawer remained the coach, along with Lee Winfield as the associate head coach, I believe the following players would all have been Billikens:

the Grawers and Winfields both gave us a lot and had more to give. It would have been nice to see Soderberg's son play here and his dad won 20 games

in his final season

Coaching changes get made for reasons and winning 5 games and not being able to coach a very talented Melvin Robinson and playing their own kids ahead of Clagget probably would not have been signals to Jahidi and Chris to stay home. We will never know the story why Craig Upchurch who was

Mel Robinsons give and take partner could not get in school after completing a summer session. Our loss was Houston's gain and they still owe us a

player-we'd prefer an Academic All American candidate.

Grawer had his run and has lots of fans.

Anyone know Spoons record versus Grawer on the court? That was the only time I looked forward to MO State games when Spoon was there; by the time we got Spoon he was pretty worn out and the recruits had to find him.

It seemed they both liked guard dominated offense and Spoon sure got a heck of a lot of effort out of all of his kids.

[GoBills]

Rich was a class act all the way. I was sorry to see how it ended, but this is long overdue. A great idea would be to honor the 20th anniversary of the 1st team that made the Finals of the NIT - I think that was 88-89 season - Grawer, Gray, Bonner, Douglass, Luck, Newberry & co.

[brianstl]

That's a pretty bold position to take. You really think SLU would have pulled guys from Georgetown, Duke, and Wake? I'll give all of the credit in the world to what Grawer did as SLU's coach, but keep in mind that Spoon was the coach in a conference that was MUCH stronger than Grawer had to face. SLU stepped down in terms of conference when Grawer came into the picture and stepped up as he was leaving. Not to knock Rich, but he wasn't playing Louiville, Cincy, and Memphis State every year.

We probably would have landed White, Carrewell, and Thames. Brian would have been here of course. I don't think we would have got Woods. Grawer had to take some chances on some bad characters before the big class that came in his last year. If the school would have let in Upcurh Grawer would have never had to take those chances. They would have been in the same shape as Xavier and the program would have started rolling.

It was what is was after the Upcurh bull. Grawer's days were number after that. It shouldn't have happened like it did, but it did. The two NIT runner-up teams were as good as any of Spoon's teams and the team that lost to Southern Miss in the second round of the NIT may have been as nearly as good as those runner-up teams. They, also, did play teams like Marquette, Iowa, Dayton, Cincy, Memphis, and others in those seasons. Our record against them wasn't horrible.

[kevinfootes]

the Grawers and Winfields both gave us a lot and had more to give. It would have been nice to see Soderberg's son play here and his dad won 20 games

in his final season

Coaching changes get made for reasons and winning 5 games and not being able to coach a very talented Melvin Robinson and playing their own kids ahead of Clagget probably would not have been signals to Jahidi and Chris to stay home. We will never know the story why Craig Upchurch who was

Mel Robinsons give and take partner could not get in school after completing a summer session. Our loss was Houston's gain and they still owe us a

player-we'd prefer an Academic All American candidate.

Grawer had his run and has lots of fans.

Anyone know Spoons record versus Grawer on the court? That was the only time I looked forward to MO State games when Spoon was there; by the time we got Spoon he was pretty worn out and the recruits had to find him.

It seemed they both liked guard dominated offense and Spoon sure got a heck of a lot of effort out of all of his kids.

Robinson was talented but uncoachable. I was acquainted with him.

[kevinfootes]

We probably would have landed White, Carrewell, and Thames.

The two NIT runner-up teams were as good as any of Spoon's teams and the team that lost to Southern Miss in the second round of the NIT may have been as nearly as good as those runner-up teams. They, also, did play teams like Marquette, Iowa, Dayton, Cincy, Memphis, and others in those seasons. Our record against them wasn't horrible.

Why do you think White. Carrawell, and Thames would have come to SLU?

Do you really think Grawer's teams were as good as the tourney teams? I'm not sure how you can say that?

[Quality Is Job 1]

That's a pretty bold position to take. You really think SLU would have pulled guys from Georgetown, Duke, and Wake? I'll give all of the credit in the world to what Grawer did as SLU's coach, but keep in mind that Spoon was the coach in a conference that was MUCH stronger than Grawer had to face. SLU stepped down in terms of conference when Grawer came into the picture and stepped up as he was leaving. Not to knock Rich, but he wasn't playing Louiville, Cincy, and Memphis State every year.

It was through Grawer's work that SLU stepped up to the Great Midwest, which was the forerunner of C-USA. I believe that, if anyone was to get those athletes to come to SLU rather than go elsewhere, it was Grawer. Somehow he and Winfield had a rapport with the area's coaches and were able to keep many of the area players capable of playing in the top six conferences home. Moreover, with the joining of the Great Midwest and Conference USA, the combination of SLU and Grawer would have been even more attractive.

Again, we'll never know. It's all fantasy basketball now. EA Sports' March Madness 2k8 minus 15 (or whatever). I just think that if SLU's administration had adopted the mindset it has now back in 1988, Rich Grawer could have established the Billikens program into what Gonzaga become later.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Do you really think Grawer's teams were as good as the tourney teams? I'm not sure how you can say that?

I'm not answering for Brian, but myself. I wouldn't be surprised if those teams (1988-89 and '89-90) weren't better than Spoon's (1993-94 and '94-95). I think those teams were shafted by the NCAA Tournament selection process. In most years the two teams playing in the NIT Championship game are better than some of the teams losing in the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament.

[kevinfootes]

I'm not answering for Brian, but myself. I wouldn't be surprised if those teams (1988-89 and '89-90) weren't better than Spoon's (1993-94 and '94-95). I think those teams were shafted by the NCAA Tournament selection process. In most years the two teams playing in the NIT Championship game are better than some of the teams losing in the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament.

I don't recall off the top of my head where SLU was seeded in the tourneys, but I think it was something like 8-10 (please correct me if I'm wrong). NIT teams might be better than some 14-16 teams, but they aren't really that good.

[kevinfootes]

I just think that if SLU's administration had adopted the mindset it has now back in 1988, Rich Grawer could have established the Billikens program into what Gonzaga become later.

SLU had a pretty good mindset during the Spoon era. He was very well paid for that era. I think Soon made more in his first year st SLU than Sodie did in his last year...some 14 or 15 years later. And Spoon delivered to the tune of more than 15K per game on many occasions. I just wish he would have been more interested in recruiting.

[GOSLU68]

It was through Grawer's work that SLU stepped up to the Great Midwest, which was the forerunner of C-USA. I believe that, if anyone was to get those athletes to come to SLU rather than go elsewhere, it was Grawer. Somehow he and Winfield had a rapport with the area's coaches and were able to keep many of the area players capable of playing in the top six conferences home. Moreover, with the joining of the Great Midwest and Conference USA, the combination of SLU and Grawer would have been even more attractive.

Again, we'll never know. It's all fantasy basketball now. EA Sports' March Madness 2k8 minus 15 (or whatever). I just think that if SLU's administration had adopted the mindset it has now back in 1988, Rich Grawer could have established the Billikens program into what Gonzaga become later.

All these coaches: Spoon, Grawer, Majerus had a top assistant and we almost had a crew with two former head coaches with Biancardi on board with Porter Moser-these guys have to be field sales manager bringing home the bacon to the Laird

[Quality Is Job 1]

SLU had a pretty good mindset during the Spoon era.

No it didn't. Not by a long shot. Did they open a state-of-the-art on-campus arena during that time? Did they leave West Pine during that time? Did they pay the assistant coaches anything worth their staying during that time? I seem to recall Spoon's "retiring" because they were wearing him out with little stuff not related to hoops. The difference between now and 10 years ago is more night-and-day than the difference between 10 years ago and 20 years ago.

[Box and Won]

I always thought Brian Grawer seemed to fit the Billiken mold much more than that of the Tigers. Kevin Grawer was a nice player too, IIRC.

[brianstl]

Why do you think White. Carrawell, and Thames would have come to SLU?

Do you really think Grawer's teams were as good as the tourney teams? I'm not sure how you can say that?

Thames went to MU because of Winfield. White and Carrawell would have followed Winfield to almost any school that Norm Stewart wasn't coaching at.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Thames went to MU because of Winfield. White and Carrawell would have followed Winfield to almost any school that Norm Stewart wasn't coaching at.

Why Spoon didn't retain Lee Winfield is a mystery to me. Julian would have stayed, and just imagine what other local talents SLU could have gotten. Then, the program would have become so attractive, with the success and the improved conference affiliation, that later recruits, like Archibald, Lee, and Baker, probably would have been Billikens as well.

[kevinfootes]

No it didn't. Not by a long shot. Did they open a state-of-the-art on-campus arena during that time? Did they leave West Pine during that time? Did they pay the assistant coaches anything worth their staying during that time? I seem to recall Spoon's "retiring" because they were wearing him out with little stuff not related to hoops. The difference between now and 10 years ago is more night-and-day than the difference between 10 years ago and 20 years ago.

Yes it did.

Compare SLU's "mindset" before Spoon came and then again after he left. I wasn't comparing then to now, I was comparing it to right beore and after Spoon was at SLU. I'm not sure how you could make that statement. Spoon made more in his first year at SLU than Brad made in his last.

[GoBills]

Yes it did.

Compare SLU's "mindset" before Spoon came and then again after he left. I wasn't comparing then to now, I was comparing it to right beore and after Spoon was at SLU. I'm not sure how you could make that statement. Spoon made more in his first year at SLU than Brad made in his last.

Where are you getting that from? I find that interesting if true, but do you have some inside info?

[brianstl]

Yes it did.

Compare SLU's "mindset" before Spoon came and then again after he left. I wasn't comparing then to now, I was comparing it to right beore and after Spoon was at SLU. I'm not sure how you could make that statement. Spoon made more in his first year at SLU than Brad made in his last.

They made Spoon pay for ice cream for the team out of his pocket. I wouldn't call that the right mindset.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Yes it did.

Compare SLU's "mindset" before Spoon came and then again after he left. I wasn't comparing then to now, I was comparing it to right beore and after Spoon was at SLU. I'm not sure how you could make that statement. Spoon made more in his first year at SLU than Brad made in his last.

How convenient of you to ignore the issues of facilities and pay for assistant coaches to focus on how much Spoonhour got paid in 1993 compared to how much Soderberg got paid in 2007. They may have paid Spoon considerably more than they paid Grawer and thrown in Cardinals season tickets, and he improved attendance remarkably, but the administration's mindset was not about sustaining prominence. The past eight years are evidence.