OT - Soccer thoughts

[brianstl]

It should be really rare we are competing with SIUE for players, at least I really hope it's rare.

They used to be one of the top D-1 programs in the country. They have one D-1 championship and one runner-up finish. They were the the D-2 runner-up in 2004 and made the final four in 2005. If you are a local kid and can get immediate playing time and spend less to go to SIUE.....where are you going to go? It is not like SLU has any recent national championships or final fours to help attract the kids. Korte stadium isn't that bad of a place to play either.

[slufanskip]

They used to be one of the top D-1 programs in the country. They have one D-1 championship and one runner-up finish. They were the the D-2 runner-up in 2004 and made the final four in 2005. If you are a local kid and can get immediate playing time and spend less to go to SIUE.....where are you going to go? It is not like SLU has any recent national championships or final fours to help attract the kids. Korte stadium isn't that bad of a place to play either.

Brian, There's no comparison at this point. If SIUE becomes one of the top teams in the country, maybe it will become an issue, but it's not now. The best players, want to play alongside and against the top players.

[courtside]

I thought the scary part was only scoring 3 goals. If we are now accepting that New Mexico is a stronger program than SLU........well.........we have fallen a lot farther than I thought.

There isn't a need to disrespect New Mexico's program in order to discuss SLU's program. Ask Brandon Barklage about the success New Mexico has had this decade in soccer. They do not have SLU's history or tradition, but they get big crowds and have had some strong teams in recent years. They have a good coach. It'd be very naive and underinformed to dismiss UNM.

I'm sure Indiana would have liked to have scored a goal, just one goal this weekend against Akron, but it didn't happen. And before we hear about Akron, they have a solid team. This isn't 30 years ago.

SLU has plenty of opportunity to enhance their pre-season results, as well as have a strong conference season, conference tournament and post-season. There's a lot of over-reaction to the first weekend. But that isn't exclusive to soccer, it happens with hoops and all other sports too.

[courtside]

They used to be one of the top D-1 programs in the country. They have one D-1 championship and one runner-up finish. They were the the D-2 runner-up in 2004 and made the final four in 2005. If you are a local kid and can get immediate playing time and spend less to go to SIUE.....where are you going to go? It is not like SLU has any recent national championships or final fours to help attract the kids. Korte stadium isn't that bad of a place to play either.

Free Don Ebert SIUE soccer.

SIUE hasn't been a top D-1 program in decades, or even D-I at all. And what is your definition of "recent," when it comes to strong post-season play? So...it's okay to reference the recent past of SIUE's success but not SLU's NCAA quarters and Final Four?

And, if you are going to talk about 1979 to the present...didn't we go through this a zillion times....only a small number of programs have been to more Final Fours than SLU during this time frame.

[brianstl]

Free Don Ebert SIUE soccer.

SIUE hasn't been a top D-1 program in decades, or even D-I at all. And what is your definition of "recent," when it comes to strong post-season play? So...it's okay to reference the recent past of SIUE's success but not SLU's NCAA quarters and Final Four?

And, if you are going to talk about 1979 to the present...didn't we go through this a zillion times....only a small number of programs have been to more Final Fours than SLU during this time frame.

I am not talking about losing the top local players to SIUE in the future ...........we already lose many of those players already. I am talking about the players top teams add for depth. The kids that may never start or get all that much playing, but make your practices that much better. The kind of kid that doesn't kill you when he has to play extended minutes because of a rash of injuries. The kid that is not getting much if any soccer scholarship money at SLU, but that is good enough to play D-1 soccer and wants to play in at a place his family can see him. That is the kind of player I am worried about losing.

Courtside give it a rest when it comes to DD's success. In the four seasons since the players that comitted to SLU when Warming was the coach have cycled out DD has won zero conference tournament titles, zero NCAA tournament games, and has missed the tournament twice. I know you are now going to go on and on about the two teams DD took to the quaters, but the fact is SLU soccer hasn't done ###### since the players Warming brought in cycled out.

[courtside]

They used to be one of the top D-1 programs in the country. They have one D-1 championship and one runner-up finish. They were the the D-2 runner-up in 2004 and made the final four in 2005. If you are a local kid and can get immediate playing time and spend less to go to SIUE.....where are you going to go? It is not like SLU has any recent national championships or final fours to help attract the kids. Korte stadium isn't that bad of a place to play either.

Brian, again, this was your post. This is what I replied to. If you are going to talk about SIUE's 1979 NCAA D-I National Title, then why can't I talk about SLU from 1979 to the present and their accomplishments during that time as well. I include Joey Clarke, Bob Warming, Dan Donigan, because they all fit during that time frame that you used, not me. You also referenced the early and mid 00's for SIUE success.(and I have nothing against the fine soccer history of SIUE) Why can't SLU's Final Four under Warming, or Donigan's NCAA Quarters appearances count as well?

You used 30 years ago to describe SIUE, then used more recent SIUE history, and all I did was use the same time frames you did. I didn't post about Dan Donigan. I posted about SLU. Donigan happened to be included in the 30 year time frame you used. If your real issue is Donigan, then have that be your point and/or new thread. I didn't even reference Donigan.

[brianstl]

Brian, again, this was your post. This is what I replied to. If you are going to talk about SIUE's 1979 NCAA D-I National Title, then why can't I talk about SLU from 1979 to the present and their accomplishments during that time as well. I include Joey Clarke, Bob Warming, Dan Donigan, because they all fit during that time frame that you used, not me. You also referenced the early and mid 00's for SIUE success.(and I have nothing against the fine soccer history of SIUE) Why can't SLU's Final Four under Warming, or Donigan's NCAA Quarters appearances count as well?

You used 30 years ago to describe SIUE, then used more recent SIUE history, and all I did was use the same time frames you did. I didn't post about Dan Donigan. I posted about SLU. Donigan happened to be included in the 30 year time frame you used. If your real issue is Donigan, then have that be your point and/or new thread. I didn't even reference Donigan.

I used 30 years ago about SIUE as a warning of what we could be looking at down the line if SLU soccer doesn't get it ###### together. I also never said thier D-1 success was recent. I said SLU hasn't had recent success. We are losing are success as selling point to kids. We can't afford to lose that when we are asking kids to make a far greater dollar comittment to attend SLU than state schools. Your are not worried about SIUE fine, but I am. SIUE has had a succesful D-1 program in the past and the could very well have one again. It is the one sport that they can make an impact in quickly and I expect them to make every attempt to do so.

SLU's recent success includes SLU's worst conference record ever, no coference tourney championships, back-to-back missed NCAA tournaments (the only time in the program's nearly 50 year history that has happened), and no wins in the NCAA tourney.

[moytoy12]

I include Joey Clarke, Bob Warming, Dan Donigan, because they all fit during that time frame that you used, not me.

And how is Joey?

[William Iken]

What does the previous season have to do with anything? Ohio St. had a rare strong post-season last year after a 7 loss 3 tie no post-season 2006-07 season. Were you concenred about Bradley last year when SLU beat them 2-0? Bradley was an NCAA quarterfinalist last year after no post-season the year prior etc...

I'm concerned about Ohio St. after they got pasted 3-0 by Creighton this pre-season and also fell to Detroit-Mercy.

SLU needs to get good results against UConn, Creighton and Northwestern, as well as in the league and league tournament to set up their NCAA seeding. But as evidence of the recent years, NCAA seeding doesn't mean all that much after simply getting in. And, after SLU has had very strong results against elite National powers in recent years, it hasn't transferred to elite post-season results when in post-season.

You are unrealistically discussing going undefeated in non-conference play. It'd be fair to say SLU needs a healthy mix of results vs the above elite three teams heading into conference.

Good to see same old Courtside is back!

1. Who said I wasn't worried abou Ohio State, and why is it relevant? But anyway, pre-season? Give me a break. You realize Ohio State won their first regular season tournament (albeit in 2-OT). Their record is now 2-0. And don't even mention Central Florida (4-12-2) or Florida Gulf Coast's (8-10-1, and a win over Penn State this year) reputation or previous record now that you have defended Loyola Marymount. By the way, St Louisan (and SG product) Gabel was named tournament MVP with a goal and two assists.

2. Remember, in a couple of days, it was you to bring up OSU, not me. I also notice that 2 of the 3 ESPN analysts put OSU in their 'who will finish in the top 10'. Was surprised not to see SLU in any of them, given who's returning.

3. Oh, you forgot to mention the OSU's 11 wins along with the 7 losses and 3 draw in 2006 (as well as having winning records in 2005 and 2004 as well). A far cry from 3-16-1, and a bit intellectually dishonest of you to only mention the losses.

3. A top 10 team, SLU or otherwise, should hope to go undefeated in non-conference play (note, I didn't say win all the games, just not lose). It is not unrealistic at all.

4. Not even having seen them, I will almost guarantee that LMU will have a losing record this year based solely on their 2007 record. I can't believe you are even making such a ridiculous argument.

[William Iken]

There isn't a need to disrespect New Mexico's program in order to discuss SLU's program. Ask Brandon Barklage about the success New Mexico has had this decade in soccer. They do not have SLU's history or tradition, but they get big crowds and have had some strong teams in recent years. They have a good coach. It'd be very naive and underinformed to dismiss UNM.

I'm sure Indiana would have liked to have scored a goal, just one goal this weekend against Akron, but it didn't happen. And before we hear about Akron, they have a solid team. This isn't 30 years ago.

SLU has plenty of opportunity to enhance their pre-season results, as well as have a strong conference season, conference tournament and post-season. There's a lot of over-reaction to the first weekend. But that isn't exclusive to soccer, it happens with hoops and all other sports too.

Since Jeremy Fishbein took over as UNM coach in 2002, they've been top class (except for a losing record in 2003). They don't have the history, but are an elite team now with a recent appearance in the finals. Although they did slip a bit last year...

But hey, courtside, what do past records have to do with anything? I do love how you make contradictory arguments depending upon the point you wish to prove.

[courtside]

I used 30 years ago about SIUE as a warning of what we could be looking at down the line if SLU soccer doesn't get it ###### together. I also never said thier D-1 success was recent. I said SLU hasn't had recent success. We are losing are success as selling point to kids. We can't afford to lose that when we are asking kids to make a far greater dollar comittment to attend SLU than state schools. Your are not worried about SIUE fine, but I am. SIUE has had a succesful D-1 program in the past and the could very well have one again. It is the one sport that they can make an impact in quickly and I expect them to make every attempt to do so.

SLU's recent success includes SLU's worst conference record ever, no coference tourney championships, back-to-back missed NCAA tournaments (the only time in the program's nearly 50 year history that has happened), and no wins in the NCAA tourney.

Brian your underlying assumption in your posts is that St. Louis is the only place SLU can get quality role players and depth. That isn't the case. SLU has always had a large contingent of local players, but they as well as many other National programs get players locally, Regionally, Nationally and Internationally.

Long term SIUE will certainly be a possible competitive force in soccer in the Region and perhaps even beyond. No one said they wouldn't or couldn't be. We don't know yet. But many other teams have already been doing that in the Region. It isn't 30 years ago where less teams play, and only a few are good.

You are now saying SLU has not had any recent success. That depends on your definitions of recent and success.

SLU's local recruiting concerns in "recent" years have been recruiting elite finishers and elite creative midfielders. Will Bruin and Joe Germanese come to mind as the only two in the past five years I would have liked to have seen play for SLU that chose some place else. Please feel free to add someone I am missing. Finding practice players, depth, bench players isn't as challenging and there are many more of those players to go around.

"Losing our success as a selling point." Well, every time Brian McBride, Vedad Ibisevic, Dipsy, Jackie, and many other players annually make their professional living playing professional soccer SLU is selling success. Every time SLU has gets results against elite National teams as it does annually, it is selling success, as well as winning the league. SLU can say they lost the last two seasons to NCAA quarterfinalists both times. It wasn't little sisters of the poor. Hosting the NCAA College Cup Final Four is a "succes," that most other places cannot sell. Every time players like John DiRaimondo become Academic All-Americans, and play professional soccer, it is selling success. "Success" comes in a lot of ways.

Nobody isn't saying SLU has gone a few years with less than acceptable post-season results that need to change moving forward. The regular seasons have been very strong and acceptable, the league results have also been strong and fine. The margin for error in soccer is very small. Northwestern hits a 40 yard strike to end SLU's season and UIC wins on PK's. That's been the difference between SLU and two Final Eight teams. And, during that time, quite a few of the NCAA "Powers" cannot even say that. SLU's biggest issue has been winning the post-season 1-0 cold weather game on a consistent basis. That has to improve moving forward.

The days of a handful of teams being any good and SLU playing Philadelphia Textile for high stakes are over and have been for several decades. There are a lot of committed, competitve, Midwest teams. If SIUE wants to jump in with all the rest, so be it.

When describing SIUE you talked about their 30 year ago success and their success this past decade. But you omit SLU's 03 NCAA quarterfinalist team and mention SIUE's results from 04. Interesting cut-off point.

When Donigan is evaluated, you take his entire resume. And that's why he's still been the coach at SLU. He earned that with his accomplishments at SLU. Nobody is saying he doesn't have to begin re-achieving better NCAA results(realistic, but better) from the past few years. His initial success spoiled many. Acceptability is in the middle. But NCAA results are only one aspect of his job, a very big aspect, but not the only one that goes into his evaluation. And, despite being a high profile sport at SLU, soccer is a non-revenue sport. It isn't the same as hoops. It isn't Final Four annual or be gone. It's about being competitve with the elite teams Nationally, it's about all those Academic All-Americans that have been coming through the door, it's about winning the league, and several other things too. An objective evaluator would say look at the past couple of seasons of NCAA 2nd round and NCAA first round losses. Had the names of those schools been UCLA or IU, I think reaction would be a bit different. But Northwestern and UIC, two Midwestern schools without the long soccer tradition and it strikes a nerve. IU tied Akron 0-0 this past weekend, and that was a legit result. Akron is solid and has been in recent years.

If SLU can make the NCAA's most years/almost annually where it would be a fluke to miss, that would be my expectation. Mixing in a deep or deeper run every so many years to go along with exiting in rounds 1-3 in other years would be my expectation.

Everyone would like Final Fours annually, but let's look at how many teams have been doing that.

If Donigan can't get SLU to win a couple of rounds and mix in occasional deeper runs, moving forward, he won't be around a lot longer. And that's fair.

[courtside]

No soccer talk on the Ohio State board? lol.

1) I think someone was having some fun with you. Tim Gabel plays left back. Tim Ream plays left back. If you do not want to ask me, ask the others on this board about Tim Ream. Tim Gabel is not a forward, nor an offensive midfielder. Elite local players will always go away and stay home in a mix. Taylor Twellman, Chris Klein, Pat Noonan, etc...all left in the past too.

2) You are still talking Ohio St. So in #2 you pick one media source out of many to say where is SLU, not in the picks for top ten, but in #4 in your post, to better help your agenda in that number, you consider SLU a top 10 team, ...which is it? But you like to have it both ways depending on how it helps what you are saying.

3) Still talking Ohio St. No I didn't forget to mention anything about the non-NCAA making team of Ohio St. You also stated that you thought SLU should go undefeated in non-conference this year, even though they are playing two top 5 teams non-conference and another in the top 15. Every team would like to win every game, but you are trying the agenda driven set up. SLU would like to win every game. If SLU doesn't win all three of those games, it isn't a failure, though you will try to somehow say it is if it happens. If Indiana's season a big failure for tying Akron 0-0 this past weekend?

4) You are discussing teams you have never seen play and making grand statements about them. At least I have actually seen the teams play. You also discuss the records of previous seasons as if they matter or are relevant to the current season, which is not the case.

Enjoy the Ohio St. board.

Good to see same old Courtside is back!

1. Who said I wasn't worried abou Ohio State, and why is it relevant? But anyway, pre-season? Give me a break. You realize Ohio State won their first regular season tournament (albeit in 2-OT). Their record is now 2-0. And don't even mention Central Florida (4-12-2) or Florida Gulf Coast's (8-10-1, and a win over Penn State this year) reputation or previous record now that you have defended Loyola Marymount. By the way, St Louisan (and SG product) Gabel was named tournament MVP with a goal and two assists.

2. Remember, in a couple of days, it was you to bring up OSU, not me. I also notice that 2 of the 3 ESPN analysts put OSU in their 'who will finish in the top 10'. Was surprised not to see SLU in any of them, given who's returning.

3. Oh, you forgot to mention the OSU's 11 wins along with the 7 losses and 3 draw in 2006 (as well as having winning records in 2005 and 2004 as well). A far cry from 3-16-1, and a bit intellectually dishonest of you to only mention the losses.

3. A top 10 team, SLU or otherwise, should hope to go undefeated in non-conference play (note, I didn't say win all the games, just not lose). It is not unrealistic at all.

4. Not even having seen them, I will almost guarantee that LMU will have a losing record this year based solely on their 2007 record. I can't believe you are even making such a ridiculous argument.

[courtside]

Since Jeremy Fishbein took over as UNM coach in 2002, they've been top class (except for a losing record in 2003). They don't have the history, but are an elite team now with a recent appearance in the finals. Although they did slip a bit last year...

But hey, courtside, what do past records have to do with anything? I do love how you make contradictory arguments depending upon the point you wish to prove.

When discussing any individual SLU opponent for this season, that opponent's record the previous season doesn't matter. Players returning, new incoming players, venue, all kinds of things matter, but not what that opponent did the previous season.

When evaluating a coach or program, a series of seasons and results in all aspects of the program matter.

[slufanskip]

Brian your underlying assumption in your posts is that St. Louis is the only place SLU can get quality role players and depth. That isn't the case. SLU has always had a large contingent of local players, but they as well as many other National programs get players locally, Regionally, Nationally and Internationally.

Long term SIUE will certainly be a possible competitive force in soccer in the Region and perhaps even beyond. No one said they wouldn't or couldn't be. We don't know yet. But many other teams have already been doing that in the Region. It isn't 30 years ago where less teams play, and only a few are good.

You are now saying SLU has not had any recent success. That depends on your definitions of recent and success.

SLU's local recruiting concerns in "recent" years have been recruiting elite finishers and elite creative midfielders. Will Bruin and Joe Germanese come to mind as the only two in the past five years I would have liked to have seen play for SLU that chose some place else. Please feel free to add someone I am missing. Finding practice players, depth, bench players isn't as challenging and there are many more of those players to go around.

"Losing our success as a selling point." Well, every time Brian McBride, Vedad Ibisevic, Dipsy, Jackie, and many other players annually make their professional living playing professional soccer SLU is selling success. Every time SLU has gets results against elite National teams as it does annually, it is selling success, as well as winning the league. SLU can say they lost the last two seasons to NCAA quarterfinalists both times. It wasn't little sisters of the poor. Hosting the NCAA College Cup Final Four is a "succes," that most other places cannot sell. Every time players like John DiRaimondo become Academic All-Americans, and play professional soccer, it is selling success. "Success" comes in a lot of ways.

Nobody isn't saying SLU has gone a few years with less than acceptable post-season results that need to change moving forward. The regular seasons have been very strong and acceptable, the league results have also been strong and fine. The margin for error in soccer is very small. Northwestern hits a 40 yard strike to end SLU's season and UIC wins on PK's. That's been the difference between SLU and two Final Eight teams. And, during that time, quite a few of the NCAA "Powers" cannot even say that. SLU's biggest issue has been winning the post-season 1-0 cold weather game on a consistent basis. That has to improve moving forward.

The days of a handful of teams being any good and SLU playing Philadelphia Textile for high stakes are over and have been for several decades. There are a lot of committed, competitve, Midwest teams. If SIUE wants to jump in with all the rest, so be it.

When describing SIUE you talked about their 30 year ago success and their success this past decade. But you omit SLU's 03 NCAA quarterfinalist team and mention SIUE's results from 04. Interesting cut-off point.

When Donigan is evaluated, you take his entire resume. And that's why he's still been the coach at SLU. He earned that with his accomplishments at SLU. Nobody is saying he doesn't have to begin re-achieving better NCAA results(realistic, but better) from the past few years. His initial success spoiled many. Acceptability is in the middle. But NCAA results are only one aspect of his job, a very big aspect, but not the only one that goes into his evaluation. And, despite being a high profile sport at SLU, soccer is a non-revenue sport. It isn't the same as hoops. It isn't Final Four annual or be gone. It's about being competitve with the elite teams Nationally, it's about all those Academic All-Americans that have been coming through the door, it's about winning the league, and several other things too. An objective evaluator would say look at the past couple of seasons of NCAA 2nd round and NCAA first round losses. Had the names of those schools been UCLA or IU, I think reaction would be a bit different. But Northwestern and UIC, two Midwestern schools without the long soccer tradition and it strikes a nerve. IU tied Akron 0-0 this past weekend, and that was a legit result. Akron is solid and has been in recent years.

If SLU can make the NCAA's most years/almost annually where it would be a fluke to miss, that would be my expectation. Mixing in a deep or deeper run every so many years to go along with exiting in rounds 1-3 in other years would be my expectation.

Everyone would like Final Fours annually, but let's look at how many teams have been doing that.

If Donigan can't get SLU to win a couple of rounds and mix in occasional deeper runs, moving forward, he won't be around a lot longer. And that's fair.

I agree, we say it differently, but I think we still have the same goals. The difference is, I don't think DD can or will acheive those consistent results. I just don't think he is a top level coach. His ability to either recruit players that fit the style he wants to play, or coach a style that fits his players is the main reason for SLU's middling results lately. With that said, I'd love to see him prove me wrong, the few times I've spoke with him, I like him.

I do have to say though, that I noticed a difference in the way we played during both our preseason games. I hope they are able to continue to play more of a possession style game, with shorter, quicker passes and more through balls played on the ground down the middle. They still have some adjustments to make to bring the defense out, but it's not realistic to expect them to perfect a new style overnight ... if they've actually made changes and my eyes weren't deceiving me. A little more possession play in 2 preaseason games, doesn't neccessarily mean any changes have been initiated.

I'm really looking forward to this season, we have as much talent on this team as we've had in quite a while. The question remains can DD get them to play a game that brings out their individual skills while playing as a cohesive team. I guess that's why we play the games. Go Bills !!!

[courtside]

I agree, we say it differently, but I think we still have the same goals. The difference is, I don't think DD can or will acheive those consistent results. I just don't think he is a top level coach. His ability to either recruit players that fit the style he wants to play, or coach a style that fits his players is the main reason for SLU's middling results lately. With that said, I'd love to see him prove me wrong, the few times I've spoke with him, I like him.

I do have to say though, that I noticed a difference in the way we played during both our preseason games. I hope they are able to continue to play more of a possession style game, with shorter, quicker passes and more through balls played on the ground down the middle. They still have some adjustments to make to bring the defense out, but it's not realistic to expect them to perfect a new style overnight ... if they've actually made changes and my eyes weren't deceiving me. A little more possession play in 2 preaseason games, doesn't neccessarily mean any changes have been initiated.

I'm really looking forward to this season, we have as much talent on this team as we've had in quite a while. The question remains can DD get them to play a game that brings out their individual skills while playing as a cohesive team. I guess that's why we play the games. Go Bills !!!

I can understand that you do not think he will achieve the desired results on the field. I believe has earned the right to be the current coach and see if he can or cannot achieve those results. If he cannot, then he won't be around for the long term. It's that simple. Every coach should be evaluated every year. Sometimes those are quick ones and sometimes they aren't. As for recruiting players that fit his style, well, I know that he tries to recruit the best possible players first. Then after the elite ones, he can be more choosy. He tried and did everything he could to land Will Bruin for example but Will picked IU. Where the kids come from doesn't interest me all that much, though he has had tons of local players on his teams.

Talent, experience, can bring more desired results.

It isn't rocket science as you know. Elite skill players, fit, with speed, size, toughness, who have a strong first touch, and who know what they want to do and are going to do with the ball before the ball gets to them.

We've talked about Dado's inability to see the field, or perhaps willingness to do so, sometimes. Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes isn't good enough at this level. Same with Kyle who does a lot of things well, but his first touch imo has been his achilles heel for years. Elite offensive players who can consistently create for themselves and others with pace, and who are strong ball strikers are hard to come by, but those are basic things that need to come in greater numbers.

SLU has a strong team this year. Experienced, talented, tough, but the margin for error isn't particularly high. Some players will have to elevate their games from last year. And this happens all the time in soccer with a lot of elite teams.

SLU is still struggling with teams who pack ten behind the ball, but they will see it again this year, as they have in recent years. That's why it's always nice to see the matches with the big boys.

[slufanskip]

I can understand that you do not think he will achieve the desired results on the field. I believe has earned the right to be the current coach and see if he can or cannot achieve those results. If he cannot, then he won't be around for the long term. It's that simple. Every coach should be evaluated every year. Sometimes those are quick ones and sometimes they aren't. As for recruiting players that fit his style, well, I know that he tries to recruit the best possible players first. Then after the elite ones, he can be more choosy. He tried and did everything he could to land Will Bruin for example but Will picked IU. Where the kids come from doesn't interest me all that much, though he has had tons of local players on his teams.

Talent, experience, can bring more desired results.

It isn't rocket science as you know. Elite skill players, fit, with speed, size, toughness, who have a strong first touch, and who know what they want to do and are going to do with the ball before the ball gets to them.

We've talked about Dado's inability to see the field, or perhaps willingness to do so, sometimes. Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes isn't good enough at this level. Same with Kyle who does a lot of things well, but his first touch imo has been his achilles heel for years. Elite offensive players who can consistently create for themselves and others with pace, and who are strong ball strikers are hard to come by, but those are basic things that need to come in greater numbers.

SLU has a strong team this year. Experienced, talented, tough, but the margin for error isn't particularly high. Some players will have to elevate their games from last year. And this happens all the time in soccer with a lot of elite teams.

SLU is still struggling with teams who pack ten behind the ball, but they will see it again this year, as they have in recent years. That's why it's always nice to see the matches with the big boys.

I agree with all that and agreed (after some convincing) that DD should have been given this season. But, a 1st or even 2nd round NCAA loss is not good enough, we have too much talent and a poor finish again, will be a trend that is unnacceptable. I don't think we have any truly remarkable players, but we have almost an entire team of very good players. If we continue to play the same brand of soccer we have in the past ... I don't see a good NCAA run happening, we have to adjust. I sincerely hope we do.

I'd also like to add that I think had he not been hurt so much and missed so much time Pat D would be a top keeper in the country. I also think that Tim Ream could end up as what I'd call a remarkable player, imo there are some things he needs to work on and his flat out speed may hurt him at the highest level, but he just plays so damn smart, you will rarely see him out of position or misplay a ball. I'm not even sure I'm judging his speed acurately as he never seems to have to really open it up.

[courtside]

And how is Joey?

Joey is good. His Wash U men's team was pre-season #6 Nationally.

[William Iken]

No soccer talk on the Ohio State board? lol.

1) I think someone was having some fun with you. Tim Gabel plays left back. Tim Ream plays left back. If you do not want to ask me, ask the others on this board about Tim Ream. Tim Gabel is not a forward, nor an offensive midfielder. Elite local players will always go away and stay home in a mix. Taylor Twellman, Chris Klein, Pat Noonan, etc...all left in the past too.

2) You are still talking Ohio St. So in #2 you pick one media source out of many to say where is SLU, not in the picks for top ten, but in #4 in your post, to better help your agenda in that number, you consider SLU a top 10 team, ...which is it? But you like to have it both ways depending on how it helps what you are saying.

3) Still talking Ohio St. No I didn't forget to mention anything about the non-NCAA making team of Ohio St. You also stated that you thought SLU should go undefeated in non-conference this year, even though they are playing two top 5 teams non-conference and another in the top 15. Every team would like to win every game, but you are trying the agenda driven set up. SLU would like to win every game. If SLU doesn't win all three of those games, it isn't a failure, though you will try to somehow say it is if it happens. If Indiana's season a big failure for tying Akron 0-0 this past weekend?

4) You are discussing teams you have never seen play and making grand statements about them. At least I have actually seen the teams play. You also discuss the records of previous seasons as if they matter or are relevant to the current season, which is not the case.

Enjoy the Ohio St. board.

1. Hey courtside, I'm well aware that Gabel is a left back (I saw him dominate Vtech last year in a very important game). But check the stats buddy, Gabel scored a goal and had two assists in the first two games of the season. Or are the official stats having me on? His goal was a header from a corner kick against FGCU, or perhaps the web-based news story was playing a joke as well.

And why the mention of others leaving, I just thought others would be interested in how a local was doing, I truly was not wishing to re-hash (nor do I presently want to) our earlier debate on local players.

2. Pre-season rankings and post-season predictions are different. I quoted three journalists (from one publication) and their post-season predictions. Did not say I agree with them, or comment in any regard. I also simply said SLU is, and should be, a top 10 team/program and should hope to go undefeated in non-conference play - every year.

3. The schedule is not that impressive. A couple of tough games, and the rest mediocre programs (no, not comparing strength of schedule to any other program). And if DD went to LA hoping for two draws, then the mighty have fallen indeed. You can't honestly say that when looking at the schedule you would have been happy with two draws out of these first games either, can you?

I'm not saying the season is lost, only that the start looks disappointing and worrisome. I would hope the team agrees with my first statement, and hope DD disagrees with the latter statement.

4. I've never seen Andorra play either, but based on past records, I don't fancy their chances tonight against England. Do you have a problem with that statement? So, how many Loyola Marymount games did you see last season, or this season? Since you raised the issue, I am looking for an answer. How many times did you see LMU last year, and this year?

4.1 If a team returns all starters from a 3-16-1 year, will that necessarily make them better the next year?

4.2 Why do you have to disparage Akron? They aren't a bad program, and over the past 5 seasons or so have been much better than either LMU or San Diego. And yes, I did see them play in the past. Will never forget Ross McKenzie from a few years back, prolific scorer but simply lacked the pace to excel in the pros (or even last).

5. I love it, you bring up Ohio State, I respond and then you go on attack as if I raised the issue in the first place.

[slufanskip]

1. Hey courtside, I'm well aware that Gabel is a left back (I saw him dominate Vtech last year in a very important game). But check the stats buddy, Gabel scored a goal and had two assists in the first two games of the season. Or are the official stats having me on? And why the mention of others leaving, I just thought others would be interested in how a local was doing, I truly was not wishing to re-hash (not do I presently want to) our earlier debate on local players.

2. Pre-season rankings and post-season predictions are different. I quoted three journalists (from one publication) and their post-season predictions. Did not say I agree with them, or comment in any regard. I also simply said SLU is, and should be, a top 10 team/program and should hope to go undefeated in non-conference play - every year.

3. The schedule is not that impressive. A couple of tough games, and the rest mediocre programs (no, not comparing strength of schedule to any other program). And if DD went to LA hoping for two draws, then the mighty have fallen indeed. You can't honestly say that when looking at the schedule you would have been happy with two draws out of these first games either, can you?

I'm not saying the season is lost, only that the start looks disappointing and worrisome. I would hope the team agrees with my first statement, and hope DD disagrees with the latter statement.

4. I've never seen Andorra play either, but based on past records, I don't fancy their chances tonight against England. Do you have a problem with that statement? So, how many Loyola Marymount games did you see last season, or this season? Since you raised the issue, I am looking for an answer. How many times did you see LMU last year, and this year?

4.1 If a team returns all starters from a 3-16-1 year, will that necessarily make them better the next year?

4.2 Why do you have to disparage Akron? They aren't a bad program, and over the past 5 seasons or so have been much better than either LMU or San Diego. And yes, I did see them play in the past. Will never forget Ross McKenzie from a few years back, prolific scorer but simply lacked the pace to excel in the pros (or even last).

5. I love it, you bring up Ohio State, I respond and then you go on attack as if I raised the issue in the first place.

Regarding #4 .... Yes, and I would say that tying 2 top 20 teams back to back t begin the season bears that out. Not saying we shouldn't be disapointed, we should .... just that it may not turn out to be as bad as it seems at first glance

[kevinfootes]

And how is Joey?

I'm not sure if this is a knock at clarke or not. The team was pretty good when he was the coach. Unfortunately, some domestic issues and a lack of funds for assitant coaches bit him a little bit. I think I'd take the level of talent he had.

[William Iken]

Regarding #4 .... Yes, and I would say that tying 2 top 20 teams back to back t begin the season bears that out. Not saying we shouldn't be disapointed, we should .... just that it may not turn out to be as bad as it seems at first glance

Skip, I see your point, but we'll have to see how their season progresses. I think the real answer is 'maybe'. Not necessarily yes or no. SLU dropped in the rankings and New Mexico fell out od the top 25 (they were ranked #21), if that gives an indication as to how the voters viewed the results.

Here's the latest poll on ncaa.com (courtside, notice Akron is actually jumped one place higher than Indiana - so perhaps IU shouldn't be disappointed in the draw. The Zips also beat Notre Dame and now W.Virginia)

NSCAA/Adidas Division I Rankings

1 Wake Forest 525

2 Boston College 470

3 Connecticut 440

4 Creighton 423

5 Akron 422

6 Indiana 407

7 SMU 379

8 Notre Dame 317

9 Maryland 309

10 Ohio State 306

11 California 277

12 Brown 241

13 Virginia Tech 239

14 South Florida 231

15 North Carolina 205

16 Northwestern 200

17 Bradley 180

18 Tulsa 179

19 UCLA 174

20 Santa Clara 171

21 UCSB 164

22 St. John's 163

23 Saint Louis 71

24 Charlotte 54

25 Illinois-Chicago

And in DIII, Wash U must have had a bad week and dropped from #6 to out of the top 25. So Joey was probably doing better last week...

[SLUBALLS]

Offensive explosion today as SLU wins 5-1 vs Portland. Patterson, Jaramillo, Reiter all score.

Also, Legion 1818 guys, get in touch with me via pm. I told you I was bringing two U10 boys teams to the UCONN game and want to have them join you guys for a bit during the game. Hopefully we can keep it relatively PG rated while they're around

[William Iken]

Offensive explosion today as SLU wins 5-1 vs Portland. Patterson, Jaramillo, Reiter all score.

Also, Legion 1818 guys, get in touch with me via pm. I told you I was bringing two U10 boys teams to the UCONN game and want to have them join you guys for a bit during the game. Hopefully we can keep it relatively PG rated while they're around

Good stuff. Portland is supposed to have a pretty dece3nt team this yesr (but no I haven't seen them play this season!)

Slightly Off topic1, but I had hoped that C-side wasn't Joey Clarke as I knew Joey well back in the day and really respected him as a coach and a person. Since c-side got their ranking wrong, I can put my fears aside...

Slightly Off topic2, can't believe France got 'pasted' by Austria. And actually since I saw the game, I can say it was a pasting. Also watched Spain against Serbia. It was only 1-0 but Spain thoroughly deserved the win, missed a pk and hit the bar a few times. Our boy VI came on as a second half sub and didn't do anything of note.

[courtside]

Good stuff. Portland is supposed to have a pretty dece3nt team this yesr (but no I haven't seen them play this season!)

Slightly Off topic1, but I had hoped that C-side wasn't Joey Clarke as I knew Joey well back in the day and really respected him as a coach and a person. Since c-side got their ranking wrong, I can put my fears aside...

Slightly Off topic2, can't believe France got 'pasted' by Austria. And actually since I saw the game, I can say it was a pasting. Also watched Spain against Serbia. It was only 1-0 but Spain thoroughly deserved the win, missed a pk and hit the bar a few times. Our boy VI came on as a second half sub and didn't do anything of note.

Actually you prefer over-reactions and dramatics to facts. On the contrary, I had the pre-season ranking correct for Wash U., who will have a strong season. I know you like to live and die with one game.

As for SLU, I think you were the only one concerned after the opening weekend. It's a long season and SLU is doing just fine. I'd hate to see you after individual basketball games too. Yikes.

[SLUBALLS]

Indiana lost 4-0 today vs Dartmouth. Jeeziz.