courtside

> the problem isn't thinking it or saying it too higher ups >... it is a problem saying it too the general public > > > Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. >Waldman ? Why?

IMO of course... SLU is not good enough to consistently win on the road in the A-10 this season. I am not rationalizing, nor am I being critical, but SLU is an average team, not a good team this year. Maybe people see a flash of something, or see what they want to see, but those are the facts. Will SLU win a game or two this season perhaps they weren't suppose to win, sure, and lose some they shouldn't sure. I don't care what conference you are in, only the elite conference teams, and elite teams period win consistently on the road. Xavier losing at home to LaSalle today didn't exactly help SLU either.

I don't know what's more predictable, Bernie's mention or the immediate response and thread...I am surprised at how split this thread is so far...perhaps Billiken Nation is getting a little restless on the Arena front? While the comment might initially hurt the feelings of hard core Billiken fans, the message is purposeful. Would you rather continue to go a LONG time with no arena news, swept under the rug and no one being held accountable? The shot is not at Joe SLU fan, it is at he administration of the school. If people are not held accountable, action is never taken. And yes it is entirely possible to have strong academics and strong athletics and strong facilities for both.

I think ACCESS to a bigger 20k place is a good thing for a handful of games a year, but not needed for every game. Seton Hall would be included in the above group as well. I am LONG a fan of 12 teams leagues. Seton Hall however plays in NBA/NHL arena and can't fill it up, and on campus is too small...they need a facility. What you need to also consider....an example.....Georgetown is finally on the way back...after getting 6k-7k a game at best unless it was a top team, then they can fill it up. I anticipate bigger crowds for them now that hey have a great team again. But, off campus, no metro stop, huge arena...Providence does not fill up their place at all....the teams of the above that draw are ND, Marquette, Dayton, Xavier, ...Nova plays big games in the big pro arena, and others on campus. Nova, Providence, are smaller schools than SLU. The rest of the mentioned schools can fill it up in big games. But very sporadic attendance. 20k big game, 7k the next. The rest mentioned wouldn't fit into any type of future league with long shot being a catholic league that included Creighton. I think if SLU had a 10k-13k on campus arena, it would be fine. They can always schedule a bigger game at Savvis a couple of times a year. I would say 12k-13k would be preferred. But if it has to go to 11k to be a better facility...I am okay with that. The biggest thing imo is the QUALITY of the new building. Offices, practice facilities, multi-purpose for other revenue...i.e. concerts etc...

While I can greatly appreciate the effort...I do not understand the relevance of some? How can you compare SLU to any school with football? And, how can you compare SLU to a school like say...GW which is surrounded by two high profile basketball schools and up the road from 5 others. SLU is private school, medium size, no football, located in perhaps medium size market. Two other schools within 2 hours located in small towns. I do appreciate the effort and find the list interesting.

What I am saying is that fundamentally the students are most important. I actually even have sympathy for the Blue Hairs too. People age, and shouldn't be discriminated against for that. The old people need seats where they can see etc...One day I will be old and you guys too. I am not advocating giving seats away if they won't be used either. What I am advocating is making student attendance THE top priority of the school. And, if/when they do come and SLU looks less like a commuter school atmosphere at basketball games, ...that alums and or older season tix holders become part of the solution too... Hearing talk about having to shift a little bit in location and seats seems way down on the list of priorities to me. If students go to games and it means seat adjustment for some people, I would favor doing whatever it took to get students to games. A whole other thread could be started (and has previously) about how to do it, and what it takes...to get the students. SLU shouldn't have this wild disconnect from blue hairs to middle age alums to students....I left out young adults because I don't see any at SLU games. The stand offish nature of the different types of fans at SLU games. When I go to games in other places...there isn't this disconnect among age demographics...part is on the blue hairs too, the students, the middle aged alums etc... I would hope that everyone on this board would have a goal or hope that at some point SLU would have a college like atmosphere at games. I actually think some or possibly many here don't really care as long as they get their seats, with a small minority of exceptions. This something I can't agree with.

One last thing....I get tired of alums and random ticket holders. We all went to college, or at least some of us...and we all/some pay good money to see games, have season tix etc...Obviously the money and support of alums and others is vital and important. But the students will always be priority one. Period. Anything else, and I do not agree.

I don't disagree with this sentiment, poor student fan support. But St. Louis Univeristy has to do their part too, or else this will just be a smaller version of the way it's been. Gotta be a prt of the solution and not the problem. If MANY other schools of similar size and background can do it, so can SLU. It takes a LOT more than the BlueCrew people to make it happen, while not trying to discredit them. It also isn't going to hapen with the snap of a finger. SLU has never had this type of student supoort. NEVER. For many many decades SLU was that local commuter school. I thought the idea was to change all that. If sitting up and over a bit more helps out in any way, I am all for it. This is part of the disconnect and problem ino with alums as well. The general idea is to win, and to win with a total college atmosphere imo. It is very easy to say well this year for example these kids don't go, etc...etc...but the GOAL needs to be to fill the stands with students, and give them low cost general admission seating in high profile sections. SLU frankly is running their hoops program mom aand pop style for many years. Maybe Brad can go door to door and sell cookies or something. While it is very easy to be frustrated whith the students, the program etc...I expected more in response....well maybe not from Rich...but certainly from Roy. Gotta look beyond...have a greater goal than what it is....

Isn't the idea to do it for the students? Sure alums fitting the bill...but shouldn't STUDENTS get the priority seating etc...and not you? Frankly this is one of the problems with the SLU program. It is all about the ever aging alums and not the students.

Based on my personal experience, I would agree with you Bob.

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If anything on this board or elsewhere, I try to be objective. With that said, I am long on record as to disregarding ANY type of high school national ranking. If it makes Peoria ND's coach happy to throw that out there, and their kids or town....have at it. But there just isn't a baromoter for national rankings in high school. Is Vashon any good THIS year, sure. I am always ready to point out their weak competition when warranted. I know a lot of people on here or elsewhere don't follow it enough and see an out of state name or city...without knowing how good the opponent actually is....And, most of Vashon's schedule would be soft once again, but not all of it...winning the Bass Pro Tourney this year against schools who are well regarded in their local areas...3 different areas, and playing well in the shootout...Vashon has certainly a better resume this year so far than Edwardsville. Is Edwardsville any good this year? Yes. Have they beaten any good or decent teams yes....but no one at the level or near it that the V has this year.....doesn't mean they couldn't, just means they haven't played anyone at that level. Since the V and Edwardsville do not play each other, and have little common opponents and little difference in result in that area...comparing the two teams is silly, because we will never know. It sort of blows me away that with any team on any level in any sport on this board....if they lose one game or win one game....the extreme highs and lows on here. Edwardsville won't have it easy to advance this year, but they do have a much easier time of it advancing to state quarters this year than the paths of some of the others that will make it too. The V will have perhaps even less of a test to get to the MO Final Four. If the V, or Edwardsville loses to a much lesser opponent early in post-season...that would register a lot more to me. If the thread is nothing more than an underdog team pulling off a big upset over the V and enjoying it for a day, enjoy. Nothing wrong with that.

Well...nobody is perfect. On the whole I would gladly take Bilas and Katz over at least 90% of the people out there. Jay Bilas is terrifc at summer camps btw. Sure, there will always be an east Coast bias. SLU could in the future(gotta give it time, a few years) could benefit from A-10 coverage. St. John's a non-ranked Big East team went on the road last week for example and played another non-ranked Big East team, and there was nothing short of TEN New York newspaper articles on the game. TEN. Philly, NY/NJ etc...beating the big city schools or higher profile schools will draw attention...certainly more than beating Dayton, Xavier etc...That's just the way it is. Back to the original topic...I can say that sure at times I disagree with Katz' thoughts or opinions on a lot of things. And, he definitely has some favorites....teams, (especially coaches...he likes certain coaches)....etc...but you can do a LOT worse than Andky Katz. Katz gets respect form me, because he is well educated....had beat covered college teams...and has also gotten out to places all over the land, to see teams...MANY of whom nobody else would see. Sure his profile, bank account etc...have risen dramatically at ESPN recently...so sure he is a big timer these days. And maybe once in a while he can appear that way...but I can tell you, he has more than paid his dues, ....he knows his stuff...and compared to most is very objective to all teams of any kind. How many other of those dopes can say that? Roy, I am willing to bet if you sent Katz an e-mail with your comments, questions, observations, complaints,....he would be objective about it. Bilas...well sure, Bilas is going to stick up for his Dukies....the ACC, and his So Cal native Bruins etc...but Bilas is solid. He constantly tries to increase his knowledge of the game, and he isn't too good for anybody. As I have said MANY times before, when considering an opinion on someone, I only compare people to those with the EXACT same job....meaning, are you a columnist, a play by play guy, game analyst, studio host studio analyst...etc... If somebody does different things..then each thing is different for me. For knowledge of the game, work ethic, objectivity...being likeablle and credible I would take Katz and Bilas over many many others. My question perhaps better for another thread....or this one would be WHO DO YOU LIKE? or WHO DO PEOPLE LIKE?

Andy Katz is a graduate of U of Wisconsin Madison. He also spent a considerable amount of time coverng the New Mexico Lobos. If there is one guy at ESPN that will pipe up for teams of any region, it is Katz.

Well...it certainly depends on the year or time period. Are we talking a specific year(s)....70's, early 80's mid 80's late 80's 90's...etc...I could go back and forth with cases for both sides. ....with overall quality, top end quality....etc...some years or period s would favor different sides.

Okay...I will try one last time and move on... We will take the same example. Let's say the line is Xavier minus 4 for that game. FIFTY PERCENT, FIVE ZERO.....believe that SLU will win the bet taking 4 points. This means that it is entirely possible that 50% of the people out there think SLU will possibly lose by 3, possibly win by 3, possibly win by 20, possibly win by 50. Those fifty percent do not necessarily believe that Xavier is 4 points better than SLU. On the flip side, those betting on Xavier minus 4....the hope is the other 50% will take this side, and those people think ANY of the following, Xavier will win by 5, Xavier will win by 10, or 20 or 50. It is entirely possible that ZERO PERCENT of the general public thinks Xavier is 4 points better than SLU when betting on the game. As far as line movement goes, 1) There needs to be HEAVY gambling on that game, or the line will not move. 2) If there is HEAVY gambling on that game, those bets need to be EXTREMELY one sided and the line will move a point or two or more throughout the week. Point spreads rarely move several points. What I am saying is you can't automatically assume because a line is set at X minus 4 and it stays there, that the general public thinks that X is 4 points better than SLU. Half the people could think Xavier will win by 20 and half could think SLU will win by 20. ...or other percentages. It is NOT therefore safe to assume that if a line is X minus 4 and that line stays there, that the general public thinks that X is 4 better than SLU.

The line is set in the hopes that FIFTY PERCENT of the betting public thinks Xavier will cover 4 points and FIFTY PERCENT thinks SLU will prevail with the 4 points. The line is NOT set so that the public thinks Xavier is 4 points better or should be a 4 point favorite. The line is set with the hopes that half go one way and half go the other. They hope that 50% or so of those people will take SLU plus 4. Lines only move when heavy betting is going only one way or another. A line could stay the same for a variety of reasons.

Bob, The point spread is set at a number because handicappers believe if set at that number, the gambling will be 50/50 either way. It is NOT an indication of who is favored. Handicappers think if the line is set at 4 for SLU...that 50% of the gamblers will go one way and 50% will go the other. If they set it say...SLU minus 4, handicappers think too many people will gamble one sided. Bookies never want all the money going one way. Money is made off of the "juice" of bets.....apologies if you know this...but if you bet $100, you lose $110 and win $100....bookies and the like make their money off of the percentage juice/interest of the people who lose. $200 is $20....and so on...you only win what you bet, but lose more than what you bet if you lose. Obviously they think that with this line, the betting will be close to even either way, and that is ALL they care about. It does NOT mean they think Xavier is 4 points better than SLU...it means they think the average Joe will more evenly bet their money either way if the line is set at X minus 4.

A couple of weeks ago, to the shock of many many folks, Vanderbilt decided to stop sponsoring their men's soccer program, and has added women's swimming. Coach McClements was building a program from scratch and had turned the corner this year in recruiting and play. Originally he was allotted 2 scholarships. Big surprise to him and the team...etc...Anyway.... Joe Germanese, current Soph....MVC Frosh of the year, and an Academic All American this past year...is a SLUH grad and former 1st teamer in STL and MO. He would IMMEDIATELY get time up front for SLU, and is a very good player. VU has also played some top level competition the past two years. The school has said they will honor all scholarships for the full four years. Germanese chose Vandy for academics...so always possible he is comfortable and wants to stay there and not play....which would be a bit surprising considering the disappointment of having a program taken away at the school. When looking at colleges, he chose Vandy over Indiana, Stanford, and Northwestern. One of the reasons he cited for choosing VU was close to home and chance to play right away. This might not have happened at IU, though he eventuallly would have played a lot on the deep Hoosiers. Northwestern has landed STL area players in recent years and has been building a nice program...including some SLUH guys. Stanford has 3 STL kids on the roster for next year, and their coach likes STL guys. He wanted a combo of athletics and academics......He would get time at any of the above schools, including IU. He is the kind of kid who wants a top tier academic school combined with playing soccer...not sure if he any interest in playing at home...as opposed to the opposite. If he transfers, he can play IMMEDIATELY according to NCAA rules. Who knows what or where he is thinking now. Needless to say, I would hope Donigan has his phone number on speed dial, and give it his best shot. IMO Germanese would play in front of Patterson, Dado, any incoming newcomers...etc...at forward, immediately. Germanese can play forward or mid. SLU was not in the original mix, but who knows now.

I have no problem with area rankings...but ANY kind of national rankings are silly. Different teams play much different local and national competition, and a true national ranking CANNOT be measured in high school athletics. I have NEVER understood why people continue to mention a high school national ranking. I would have thought by now most people would skip right over it. Rather saying such and such beat a blank ranked state of blank team...would seem to mean more. Local area and state rankings are fine. Good teams get upset once in a while. It really isn't a big deal. If it was the state tourney in MO and it happened, it would be a little different. Or if it happenend a few more times. Vashon has continued to play some weak out of area teams year in and year out...and what it does is set themselves up for a game like this, where if they win, yawn city, if they lose, headlines. But this year, unlike many previous years, Vashon did play in the very competitive Bass Pro tourney this year, and won it...first time in several years they played in it. They also played in the shootout against a good opponent. So, they are clearly the STL area's best team THIS year, and, could definitely play with the big boys THIS year in IL. They lost a game, got beat....just so you know, 3 or 4 of the top IL ranked hoops teams have had shocker losses this year...most have only one loss or so...but defending state champ Glenbrook North for example lost to a much inferior opponent in Hoiday tourney.....it happens...and if happens once, not a big deal. I take everything in each individual season. THIS season, Carbondale is down considerably from last year's team, though still solid team, and same for the Peoria schools....all three are in a top 25 state level this year, but nothing more than that. And, reputation helps. Last year was different. Edwardsville cracked the state top ten....and Alton cracked the state top 20. So, sure would it be tougher and harder for Vashon in a reg season scenario, AND a playoff scenario to play in IL, especially Chicago area, absolutely. Top teams are good anywhere...but the number and depth of quality teams means a togh playoff opponent night after night. I will say that STL area high school hoops is not deep at all, and really not strong at the top either after the V and Edwardsville...maybe Alton....Some decent solid clubs like a Troy...but really nothing special. ...at least for this year. On the other side of the state, not a lot of depth either.

First, good for GW Steve...I have no problem with them getting a little love. How's that strength of schedule? Even Louisville somehow received 6 votes this week. As for RPI...wish it would get tweaked a bit more. If you win on the road against a bad team, it is worth more than beating a very good team at home. Meaning...a SLU home win over Xavier, ...or if they had beaten Gonzaga...etc...would have been worth LESS than a road win at a bad conference opponent. It GREATLY helps mid-majors....and helps SLU and A-10 teams as well., because it is easier to win on road if you are decent club.

Roy, While I admire your enthusiasm, consider the source. Even Nate gave up long ago and resorts to humor and sarcasm now. Anyway...yes I would agree you can't compare a Frosh in high school to a Frosh in college. Where do you begin? I think comparing a frosh to other frosh is fine. as for Hansbrough...though not the most athletic player to watch...he gets it done night after night this year. I admit he is accomplishing more as a frosh at UNC than I thought he would. I knew he would do well, start, a top 10 national recruit etc...immediate impact guy....but not this good. More than one NBA scout has Hansbrough as a lottery pick next year after only one year of ball. And, one even has him going in the top five. Will he stay another year? I would hope so. You never know. I don't see him staying 3 years at UNC. Two and done. Comparing a high school frosh to that...obviously can't do it.

I found this info below to pass on...for example...Jackie Jewsbury made the $850 a month...then became full time KC player making the old min. $24k....now with Klein traded, he has a chnace to get more time, and money....not bad for a 5th rounder. Jewsbury did camps, appearances, etc...to supplement his income when a developmental player. Each team has approx up to 10 developmental players...that don't include the 18 on roster. Many of them play A league on loan for playing time...Jewsbury did this briefly for example. Under the new CBA full roster players minimum pay will 28K in 2005 and grandually go up to 34K by 2009. Developmental players were making $850/month and will now make $975/month in 2005 and up to $1175 by 2009. Senior development players were making $1250 and will now make $1375 and $1575 by 2009. Developmental players will have beneifts for the first time under the new agreement also

Easily agreed Skip. I know some of thses guys who play...it isn't a question of whether or not to play. Indoor soccer is a bit different....but these days a lot of indoor guys also play outdoor in the A league...the notch below MLS...so that they can play year round soccer indoors and out....and the combined income is enough to live on. I had a cup of coffee so to speak and took my athletics as far as I could post college. To this day my biggest regret if I have one, was not training as hard as I should have in off-seasons at younger ages...I did sometimes, but not all of the time. If you think players don't get much...try being a coach. Usually D I colleges can only pay one full time assistant....and many still don't do this. SLU, ofr example ONLY started doing this in past 8 years or so. I know a local STL guy, played in college D-I in SLU's old conference, was an assistant for a few years at his alma mater....basically for free, then a little more, then a little more...he had another job...too...then left to go to Patriot league, lesser level of play but still D-I, ....because he was named number one assistant, and it was more money. He moved across the country with his new wife...he met the coach because the new head coach there worked in his city at another school and they were friends through youth coaching....after he puts in some time there....who knows? It isn't a flashy great lifestyle...but you work hard, and hope to run your own gig one day. Even Mike Martz formerly Rams coach in football once libed on powdered milk, zero money...etc...when he was in coaching. You really must have a passion and commitment to coach...helps to play at decent level to ease into your start as assistant....but doesn't have to be.... Players have it much easier. 26k, no problem. Another buddy of mine is top assistant at another school...he is extremely smart and well educated...top school...etc...he makes little money, but loves it...he could do anything else he wanted. Money is nice, and I amsure everybody would love to have a lot of it....but it isn't everything. How many doctors, lawyers etc LOVE what they do and would do it for free or for fun every day??? How about these basketball kids...somebody will pay you $50k $100 k to play ball in Europe after college? Get to see the world for years....easy decision.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you...Tarheel...about don't quit your day job. Sure you can earn more in other professions....but.... To be able to get paid for playing a sport professionally....sure....it isn't even a discussion. In a heartbeat. Sure the low end very young guys , and developmental guys make an amount you would rather not make for very long...but we are talking young 20 somethings...makibg 20' 30's 40's.....in a heartbeat. Some solid veteran players making 50k... A midlevel vteran player making 50k....in a heartbeat. Maybe your comment was just a joke or something. But if I am a young man and I have the opportunity to make big bucks at Joe Business job or get a 26k chance to play in MLS, ...I'm playing MLS. It isn't even an issue. You can always do something else later in life when you are finished. As I said maybe I misunderstood your commments... These guys train year round..this is their day job, and what a great one it is imo.