courtside

not at game? not in Stl anymore?

M.A. I would hope that you would take the time to dig a little deeper past the trolls and deep-enders and discuss intelligently with some of the the others. In case you do leave, let me give you my response. Nobody more than me has cried and preached for more floor general guards, letting Lisch play two guard and fill in at point once in while, and letting Liddell play the wing. It is my opinion SLU needs two point guards. Others have already disagreed and will again. Also...in order to win in college basketball today, you need to have a good recruiting class every other year...by that I mean a couple of high major recruits. TL and KL was a great class, that is two major contributors, and top level players(I do not expect that every year, but if two years later you don't get even one more high major, it is a problem)...IV has progressed into a high major, and that is 3 players in 3 years, not bad...concern is current Frosh class has zero high level like the above, and next year not likely either. Even the role players are not enough like LM, solid role player recruits which you must get especially in a year without high major...You cannot come up empty two years in a row or more and win. No, you don't need high majors every year, but need ONE every other year, or two in a class etc..If you lay an egg two years in a row or more, won't compete at high level...SLU has 3 in 3 years, and it is why they have a chance to be better, but the role player/solid players tht aren't superstars recruiting needs improvement, and, SLU is due for one high major recruit for next season in order to win at higher level. And still, with that, coaching those kids is the other factor. Coaching is obviously another aspect of the game, preparation, adjustments in game, etc...developing players. SLU still has an opportunity to right its ship...the key games are Xavier, Dayton etc..not an encouraging conference start but certainly not over yet. In my other posts, I have tried to point out that it is okay for people to want more, a winner, even though the University lacks that commitment. Yes, it is tougher, but can be done and has been done to a higher success than SLU in other places also lacking admin commitment. The new facilities will help with recruiting but more is needed, and while it is not easy, someone can win more at SLU under the circumstances, and hopefully then they demand more from the school and get it. I definitely think it will take someone who wins with little help first, then pushing for the support. For this year, margin for error is not great anymore...RPI won't be good, so gotta win the conference, or conference tourney to have a chance and that is what most thought anyway. It is possible to right the ship, as it is early in conference play, though people are obviously a little concerned that the one bd loss wasn't just a blip, now it is another at home. We shall see.

David, According to TT's blog, Lisch is fine.

I think it is $9 $12 $15 $25...I need the complete numbers. People will come if SLU wins or plays a superstar opponent. The idea or goal is to get them to come all the time. Other factors to consider: I am probably alone in this, but other factors help. Put on the objectivity cap here...SLU home games are dull and boring, even the close ones. Sure, people get excited and enjoy close thrillers with Ole Miss, MSU, etc...late in the game. But the loudest cheers were for free t-shirts. So what is my point? The short or long term goal, etc...needs to be to make SLU home games a not to be missed event...key word being event. It is entertaining all the way around...everything is professional done, no stone unturned from start to finish. This requires stronger marketing to draw in fans, to appeal to a younger demographic...as in 20,30 something alums and students. I hope in the new building student attendance increases big time, and others get left out and have to *****. Sure older people pay the bucks to support the school, but really it is highly wealthy boosters...and would like to see the game itself catered more to the students. Not to blue hairs and little kids. This isn't going to happen overnight...and at many other schools the coach has a lot of input and say...BS doesn't involve himself with that which is not my preference, but fine. That means a professional event marketing staff needs to be consulted, other schools need to be consulted. As for tix cost...well...parking is cheap at or near the Arena, tix...? Tough to sell $25 tix, family of four, or to young adults...family of four will discuss costs, and young adults will say game atmosphere is boring. The STL Rams have terrible marketing and terrible game day event presentation. It matters. If it were a great event, it would create more buzz. Winning cures a lot...but getting people to those random games...gotta make much more of an effort. It all starts with deals...and progresses with winning a lot, so the ticket is more of a hot commodity. A fundamental effort has to be made to change the demographic of fans. Balance. I will be old some day and I understand respecting blue hairs....but that can be balanced with many more students, and many more young alum fans. People say, why don't more students go? What else are they doing ...etc...? Well...they have spoken...they have decided whatever else, anything else is more interesting or fun. Logistics? The shuttle system to games from what I have heard is embarrassing and worse than high school. Everything all around reeks of mom and pop operation. of cutting corners. It takes die hards to cough up $25 bucks a night for every game...and perhaps a more sane non-board memeber would be shaling their head. There needs to be more entertainment value on and off the floor. Winning and first rate event....SLU has had neither. Everything starts with students. That is where they need to go first. Just wait til SLU wins a couple of years and parking shoots up $10....I couldn't imagine...lol.

It took Liddell and Lisch, two much more highly touted players more than half a season to adjust to the pace, strength, and mental grind of college ball. I would definitely have low expectations his first year if he comes, based on my observations. He can come off the bench, get some minutes and experience etc..but he isn't big enough, strong enough, or has the footwork to be given the keys to the car coming in. If he were a great athlete that would be different.

>or maybe they arent playing because like most freshmen they >are just freshmen learning. the impact and time that lisch >and liddell gave last year is not the norm for freshmen. > >the hill bros and washington would be sitting right >alongside maguire and muse would be sitting with dixon and >obi. Agreed, however...thast impact is a lot more the norm on good/better/top 25 teams....having 1-2 Frosh who can get significant time their first season. It isn't the norm at SLU...or for less talented or less recruited players. It all depends on what a team has coming back....if you get a top 100-150 kid on a veteran good team, they will play less, if they come in to a loaded deep veterean team....say Pruitt at Illinois on deep strong teams his first couple of years. He was highly talented high school player, highly recruited...big men a little longer to develop...and I for one am not surprised at his progress. So, it all depends. The agreed thing is to try and recruit TL, KL caliber players at different positions more often, or it will be tougher to win.

Kind of like maybe winning a men's and women's national title in basketball. Kind of like winning a national championship in men's soccer and a couple in women's field hockey Kind of like drastically improving the men's football team...and playing their final game for BCS conference title this year. ...Obviously these are just some of Debbie Yow's accomplishments at Maryland. Levick gets to put new Arena on resume...and now playing in weaker athletic conference, gets to tell stories of improving non-revenue sports...women's volleyball and women's soccer winning league titles because the league is not as strong, but still mark it down as NCAA's baby...baseball etc....she is racking up resume material left and right....if only that darn hoops team makes the NCAA's too...that'd be like icing on top of the resume. Don't kid yourself, she is going where they play football and spend money, going to a bigger conference....all when the opportunity presents itself.

I don't have a problem with that...but outside of the SLU community ...St. Louis is a good ole boy yee haw town, much to my dismay...but that is the reality....and Spoon is the classic good ole boy....so go ANYWHERE outside of Billiken nation in the area and people will say they love Spoon,...inside Billikenation...you will get mixed opinions. I have no problem with Spoon and his contributions after the work Grawer did.

I just think it is two things. People here saw how hard Grawer worked with not the same people. He to many did it with less. As for disdain for Spoon, ...I don't..but again, many see Spoon as someone who could have kept SLU there are higher and clearly didn't work hard enough to do it. This is St. Louis, and people like two things: Hard workers, and good ole boys who work hard. Spoon had them for a while...but came across to many as losing the hard worker part. I definitely believe Spoon sure knew how to sell better than any of the other coaches except Romar. Romar had a tougher challenge because he wasn't a good old boy in the Lou, but he knows how to sell.

Their class for next year is solid, 3 signees...couple of tall downstaters...Cole etc..thin, good shooters, need to fill out...and St. Joes' point guard. Very solid, very good, but nothing spectacular top 25 level class or anything. Gordon, Turner, Rose, etc..all chose out of state. I am sure Weber will coach em up. He is finding out just how tough the recruiting battle can be for the superstars, something Self does well. There is so much talent in state for him though...the next tier is solid.

From what I have heard, I wouldn't hold my breath on Levick staying very long. Age? She isn't very old. Disagree on DD. His biggest problem was not being able to anticipate the early departures of star players for professional ranks, and thus having a 1-2 year adjustment, after being loaded with deep great teams. Losing on road mutiple times in NCAA quarterfinals to excellent teams is pretty good. He lost one "important" game he should have won...where the team dominated Northwestern for 90 minutes and lost 1-0 on a once in a lifetime goal.(admitted by the kid who scored). Since his ability to land superstar recruits first few years...his recruiting is back to solid but not spectacular.(a lot of other places are solid too). The two biggest problems for SLU past few years has been inability to find 1-2 guys who can finish...he had those players and they left early to for pro ranks. And, I haven't been satisfied with the keeper position recruiting...guys haven't panned out since Hutton got hurt injured.

What matters are high quality wins, conference record, and bad losses. Like you said, what you wrote means nothing.

Were you at the game? Do you know who guarded whom..etc.... I can say I have seen ALL of the top St. Louis side teams play more than once...and I can safely say there is a ton of parity team-wise....10-15 teams could beat each other. Sure a few are slightly better than others, but easily could lose on a given night to the lower part of that group. Team-wise, no elite teams, would be surprised to see a St. Louis area team win state in large schools boys. Individually, KS gets his pts every game. Most are off of screens for 3 or pump fake jumpers. He is excellent FT shooter. Teams have to work to guard him...left alone, he makes the open shot. He definitely would need an adjustment...meaning it took TL KL more than half a season for people to understand that there is huge jump to college....KS would need more than that...he would NOT make a contribution his first season...and it may only be a two year contribution if ...if he can play at SLU. He does bring the ball up a lot...but that would be a problem with pressure. The nice thing is he is a junior and he is going to SLU or somewhere less, so there isn't any pressure on recruiting him.

One thing people aren't discussing in this thread or elsewhere...what if SLU did eventually have a coach, Brad or anyone else that became consistently successful...etc....does anyone have any reason to believe SLU would bump up into 7 figures to keep that coach???

Really the problem is not winning enough games. SLU wasn't considered for the Big East because at the time, they weren't winning enough basketball games. And, the only other way to get an invite is on potential, like DePaul in a large market(8million)...Now DePaul is really improving and has some top level recruits coming in next few years. SLU should win some games, dominate their league and then doors open and people notice. Also, rivalries are built with competitive play. It doesn't have to be with geography. Cincy and Louiville built rivalries with other teams because they won games, period.

This is why I prefer someone who has D-1 head coaching experience first.

The only way SLU's program becomes successful and not be a stepping stone, ....is hiring someone on the cheap, and that coach, has to win, ...and SLU's admin will then have to buck up to keep that staff.

>Spoon left because he was mad that Larry Hughes qent pro >after his first year, causing Spoon to go 15-16 the >following season. Spoon left a decent, but not great, base >of talent. Charlie didn't leave for a better opportunity, >he just quit. He didn't go to UNLV until a couple of years >later. That's my beef with Charlie, simply quitting. > >Romar left for a better oportunity, but it wasn't because he >did well at SLU. Romar's record got worse each of his 3 >seasons. SLU got hot and lucky at the right time in the >conference tourney with Romar and made the big dance, but >Romar did little to build on that. Again, it counts...I laugh hard at people that say, well he was lucky to get to dance etc...people know EVERY year that you get two chances to get to dance, and he did one. As I said before, it is like saying, if UNC didn't have all of those great players, SLU would have taken them. Sure my example is extreme, but the point is he did it and you cannot revise history. Let me give one more example...I think Spoon was a poor, lazy recruiter etc...all the stuff others say...etc...but he did get Hughes, it counts, albeit only for one season, but that would make Spoon's evaluation at SLU more elevated and mixed than if he hadn't.

>Charlie left because he got burnt out. It happens to >coaches. Spoonhour left Romar a team that had a top 40 RPI >in his first season. He left Jeffers, Perry, Love, Baniak, >Heinrich, Tatum, Braun Fergerson and Redden. Not bad. If I >recall, that team beat several top 25 teams and beat Mizzou. >As for Romar, I agree Romar did not build on the solid >foundation that Charlie left him. I don't think he did a >great job here. He got lucky that his alma mater struck on >their top few coaching choices, but Romar would have been >given time at SLU, because as we know SLU wouldn't have been >able to find a "big name" coach to replace him. Your >assertion that Romar would have been fired anyway after 3 or >4 years is ridiculous. I don't recall that ever being a >possibility. Now if Romar was struggling in year 6 or 7, >then I agree, but at the time he left he made the tourney in >1 out of 3 years, he was a little better than .500 the other >two years... SLU's had coaches do worse. He would have been >given some time and who knows how that would've turned out. >He wasn't on the hot seat at the time he left. I don't know >where you're making this stuff up from. Agreed. Romar was at SLU for 3 years...people can't have it both ways...if SLU is so much tougher to recruit at...which I know it is tough at SLU, ...can't give one coach an opportunity and not another. And one could argue the inroads Romar was starting to make in recruiting. He raised the bar of targets. One could also argue that BS didn't come in blind like Romar. Nobody discusses his opportunity to assist at SLU for a season, a big advantage. Romar didn't get that opportunity with the program. SLU also played in a tougher conference. Romar played 14 games vs post-season teams his 3rd season. How many post-season team games will BS have this year? He also lost 7 of those by 5 points or less. Please stop with the Romar. He left for a dream job of his at his alma mater in Washington, and like his previous stops is blowing up all of Freemont. And with his super young Frosh Soph team and great classes coming in, they will be up there for many years to come.

>The same site has the total spend on men's basketball for >each school. I pulled out a few for comparison. > >SLU--$1,949,000 >Missouri $3,550,000 >Saint Josephs $2,521,456 >Duke $7,400,000 >Cinn. $3,748,000 >Virginia $9,043,477 >Kansas $4,335, 649 >Xavier $3,039,854 > >Clearly, the big boys spend a lot more than we do. Under the >circumstances, I think SLU has made a tremendous statement >in building the new arena because I am sure the cost of the >bb program will go up. And Georgetown was less in recruiting budget, Creighton near where SLU is, Gonzaga and Boston College have less hoops budgets....schools played,...Loyola worse in both, Houston was a little better than SLU, and Pacific similar. And that's just some. SLU definitely needs better funding for basketball, no question, ...but again your attitude is that a coach can't win with less. They are doing it at other schools.

>The same site has the total spend on men's basketball for >each school. I pulled out a few for comparison. > >SLU--$1,949,000 >Missouri $3,550,000 >Saint Josephs $2,521,456 >Duke $7,400,000 >Cinn. $3,748,000 >Virginia $9,043,477 >Kansas $4,335, 649 >Xavier $3,039,854 > >Clearly, the big boys spend a lot more than we do. Under the >circumstances, I think SLU has made a tremendous statement >in building the new arena because I am sure the cost of the >bb program will go up. I woud need more of a breakdown of money. UVA was ranked by millions ahead of anyone else in spending...they opened their beautiful new arena, and Leaito's salary isn't cheap...etc...so a year in to the new facility what will be their ranking? Still, it is interesting overall.

>and that's why he left. > >Spoon did leave a parting gift in the name of Justin Love >which was very nice. I have read many posts of yours discussing how a program is left when a coach leaves a program. I am not sure what your point is or what seems to be bothering you. Coaches who get fired(most do at some point) get fired for losing and thus not having a good program or players. Coaches who leave for a better opportunity are in fact out for themselves and should be, and those coaches are likely to have won a little bit on their stop and leave solid players. So I don't understand your preoccupation with how a coach leaves a program. What am I missing? What seems to be the problem?

Stop the presses Roy and I agree on something. I would like to take this moment to thank everyone that made this agreement possible. Thanks ACE and to all the little people at Billikens.com...and because no one ever thanks the big people, to all of them too. I would like to thank Steve for making it all happen. Thank you, you have been a wonderful audience. I would like to thank the 8 year old kid who missed those 45 footers at the Ole Miss half time, for a chance to win 35 cents and a piece of lint out of my pocket. I would like to thank those who made the shell game so easy so even the blue hairs can play. I would like to thank the dance team and cheerleaders for being able to throw those t-shirts all the way back to the 3rd row of the lower level, and for everyone who makes that moment the most rowdy part of any SLU game. Forget a close game, the people want tees. I would like to thank Scottrade for understanding that with the blue St. Louis Blues colors and blue SLU colors to make all of their advertisements purple and gray. Nice touch guys. My time is up, they are pulling me off the stage.

David, That isn't going to happen...I know you were just trying to throw out names casually without examining each one...but in general a big name coach would be someone in retirement, like Dr. Tom Davis...and no I don't mean him....but somebody like that...none of the above examples of yours would take the job. SLU would do best with someone currently assisting a strong program who also has D-1 head coaching experience, or someone who is currently coaching a lesser D-1 program and considers SLU a step up. Why? Steve Lavin, and this isn't debate how good Lavin is, as many think he can't coach a lick but can recruit a lot...Lavin would need 7 figures, makes a lot at ESPN, and not playing in BCS conference...he coached in Big Ten and Pac 10...he wouldn't do it. Majerus? same thing, big conference only...if it is not big conference...he has in past said, in his retirement years, he would like to coach a St. Mary's type, small D-1 or less, in beautiful weather area. No Midwest unless it is big time...all assuming his health improves, big if. Richardson falls into that older retired guy...but would never recruit against Mike Anderson who is like a son to him. Spoon? mutually no chance. I think SLU would do better with a younger or middle aged coach rather than the older types. Soderberg etc...have established NIT level...so, the older types aren't interested in all other program aspects. These are all hypotheticals if Soderberg was not around. I again, am making it a point to say I am not advocating his firing...but I do think it is fair to debate his progress and future after 5 years.

>I agree for the most part agree you on this. During my time >as a Billiken Basketball fan, I have seen some great games >(e.g. Arizona in '03, Iowa NIT in '04, Gonzaga last year, >etc.) but the thing that for (lack of a better word) >frustrates me is that consistency is lacking. I can see how >great this program could be (which is why I am a Billiken >fan), but it's the games that offset those great games like >losing to the Bonnies the other night or St. Joe's last year >that really pull you out of that optimistic mindset. > >One on hand, it's fun to say before the start of the new >season, "this is our year," but on the other hand it is >frustrating. I'm selfish: I don't want us to only get a >single year of greatness. I would rather spend time >developing a consistent winning basketball program than >being like George Mason last year or St. Joe's a few years >back: having "their year" and then you don't hear from them >since. We can be better than that and we WILL be better than >that. That's why I do not call for Brad's head on a stick >everytime we lose. > >This is why I became a Billiken fan, why I am still a >Billiken fan, and why I will continue to be a Billiken fan >long after graduation. I don't think anyone would argue with that. I just think people question, as they did when he was hired, is BS the guy who can turn the corner long term for SLU? I think everyone would like to have a long-term coach, but is he the right one for the job? That is the question? If not, it would seem those 3-5 more years would seem like all of those past frustrating ones. Every coach in America doesn't get 7-10 years to build something, and of those that do, not all of those turn the corner and turn out to be mistakes. And if it all needs to be started over again, something everyone dreads, but may in fact be necessary, why the 4-5 more years? That is the other side of what you are saying. Blindly giving someone an extra 3-5 more years because people don't want turnover in coaches...seems to be a reason that is concerning to me. Progress needs to be evaluated in many areas of being a head coach and what comes with that. What you are saying is....well if you give BS thos extra years and they don't turn out, who cares, SLU hasn't been good anyway, and everyone can sleep better knowing he received ample time. If in fact college basketball is big business and BS makes nice money, ...perhaps it needs to be scrutinized a little tighter. Everyone wants a long term coach with sustainable program. Can BS do it at SLU given his abilities and all other said Admin stuff? That is the debate.