Would Lisch and Liddell be Billikens if...?

[brianstl]

I think Majerus would have recruited both of them. He recruitied cotto and reid who both had a little trouble qualifying. Tommie would have been recruited, whether he would have committed I dont know. I think Tommie has a much bigger desire adn a much better basketball IQ than people give him credit for. This year and last he is always directing people on the court. Also watch the way he goes for rebounds someone without desire doesnt do that

I think Tommie's big problem was that we had to ask him to do too much last year. He hasn't had a couple great games, but I won't write him off for the rest of this season. He his the best rebounding guard I have every seen play for the Billikens. That requires both effort and some basketball IQ. I think the problems he has had with his shot so far are messing with him right now.

[SLUDrew]

"I think Majerus would have recruited both of them. He recruitied cotto and reid who both had a little trouble qualifying. Tommie would have been recruited, whether he would have committed I dont know. I think Tommie has a much bigger desire adn a much better basketball IQ than people give him credit for. This year and last he is always directing people on the court. Also watch the way he goes for rebounds someone without desire doesnt do that"

Amen. I concur with each statement. I think anyone who questions whether or not Tommie is giving "effort" is way out of line. Guards don't get 12 boards by just going through the motions. He is also the one calling the team together in dead ball situations to make sure they are all on the same page.

[The Dude]

Kudos to Billenfan05 for this thread. The whole idea of a forum is to spur conversation. The thread was provocative (obviously) and hardly demeaning. I find it ridiculous that folks believe this forum should be reserved for high praise for anything and everything related to SLU basketball.

As regards the post, KL and Majerus seem to be on the same page this year. Last year I would have questioned whether Majerus cared (basketball-wise) for any of his incumbent players. Recall when he noted that these players didn't choose him and (by inference) he didn't choose these players. There was a lot of talk about the team's inability to grasp his defensive schemes. Obviously a lot of this could be attributed to Majerus' late appointment and inherent learning curve.

Majerus emphasizes strong fundamental defense. It's also apparent that he believes KL to be his best on-ball defender. Why else would he leave KL on Al Fisher only to see KL get lit up for 16 points in the OT. And where does TL stand? Look no further than Majerus's comments on benching TL during the Neb game - TL's poor defensive effort.

On the positive side (for the sensitive types on this forum), TL seemed to play with a tremendous amount of enthusiasm in the two contests against Kent State and BC. The surrounding cast and freshman talent seemed to inspire him; or maybe it is just a sense of relief in knowing it's no longer up to KL and him to put points on the board.

Overall I think TL can have very important year. Not only with his play but also with his leadership for the freshman class. The same goes for KL. Should be an exciting year with a real possibility to improve on last year's result.

[Clock_Tower]

What was the edited part? Tommie having a low basketball IQ?

I really can't argue with that statement.

I can take one of two things away from Liddell either a. he doesn't have the desire and know how to use his vast skills or b. we have overrated him substantially. I think I will go with A.

I am proud of Liddell though. He didn't qualify so he worked in prep school. He was courted by other schools but stayed true to SLU. He was a burgeoning star for Brad and Majerus turned his basketball world upside down. We've has seen a lot of knuckleheads who would have just quit the team, transferred, not even gone to college. Tommie never quit. He'll end his career as one of the better players to put on a SLU uniform and he'll have a college degree.

"He was a burgeoning star for Brad and Majerus turned his basketball wordl upside down." Are you suggesting that TL would be playing better today for Brad than he did for RM? If so, I recall that while TL began his Sophomore year under Brad with a good shooting stroke (unlike his Freshman year), TL's ball handling and defense did not improve - or as you suggest, burgeon. In fact, Brad's teams had always played good defense until TL and KL's freshman year. Don't get me wrong, TL has always rebounded for us quite well and has always put points on the board, but Brad did not get TL to really play hard defense like Anthony Drejaj did. Still remember plays, like the clear-out for TL with only seconds left in the game (believe UMass) only to have TL's high dribble stolen and turned into a game ending layup. Not intending this to be negative on TL. Instead, I have seen him improve in all facets under BOTH coaches.

[JaleJarr]

"He was a burgeoning star for Brad and Majerus turned his basketball wordl upside down." Are you suggesting that TL would be playing better today for Brad than he did for RM? If so, I recall that while TL began his Sophomore year under Brad with a good shooting stroke (unlike his Freshman year), TL's ball handling and defense did not improve - or as you suggest, burgeon. In fact, Brad's teams had always played good defense until TL and KL's freshman year. Don't get me wrong, TL has always rebounded for us quite well and has always put points on the board, but Brad did not get TL to really play hard defense like Anthony Drejaj did. Still remember plays, like the clear-out for TL with only seconds left in the game (believe UMass) only to have TL's high dribble stolen and turned into a game ending layup. Not intending this to be negative on TL. Instead, I have seen him improve in all facets under BOTH coaches.

I'll bite Clock. I think Tommie would be playing better statistically under Coach Soderberg simply for the fact he was recruited to play in Coach Soderberg's system. Tommie skillset has never meshed with Coach Majerus' system. Majerus' system relies on precise movements and positioning, almost robot-like. This is not criticism just a statement of fact.

Guys who are shooters will have more success in this offense. Guys who are slashers will struggle mightily in this offense. Tommie is not a classic shooter. He is a slasher who has the ability to make jumpshots. To illustrate this points lets look at Kevin, when Kevin is making his jumpshots he looks all-world on the court. When those shots are not falling he looks pedestrian.

When Kevin's shots are not falling he begins to penetrate almost everytime down. That's the worst thing you can do in this offense as there is not enough spacing and no other threats besides Kevin and Tommie to distract the defense. What happens next is the defense collapses which leads to tougher shots or turnovers.

Compare Kevin's number for the Nebraska and Detroit game to his numbers vs Kent State and BC.

Night and day.

In the 2 close games Kevin averaged 18.5ppg on 60% fg shooting (46.1 from 3 land), with 7 assists against 4 turnovers.

In the 2 bad losses Kevin averaged 10.5ppg on 17.3% fg shooting (25% from 3 land), with 3 assists against 2 turnovers.

The reason I'm using Kevin's number is to illustrate how difficult it is to score in this offense when you rely almost exclusively on penetration to score points. It simply cannot work.

[JaleJarr]

"But Brad did not get TL to really play hard defense like Anthony Drejaj did".

Brad also never got Drejaj to rebound and help out on post players like Tommie did. Your going to have guys on the team who are assigned certain roles. Drejaj role was to be the defensive stopper. He was very good at that role. You single Tommie out but a lot of players on that team did not defend like Drejaj.

"Still remember plays, like the clear-out for TL with only seconds left in the game (believe UMass) only to have TL's high dribble stolen and turned into a game ending layup".

You somehow leave out that Tommie was a last minute decision to play that game due to a severe toe injury. He tore off a toenail in the Dayton game prior to UMass. Giving Tommie a clear out on one good wheel was probably not the best decision.

[JaleJarr]

Quote from the Dude

"On the positive side (for the sensitive types on this forum), TL seemed to play with a tremendous amount of enthusiasm in the two contests against Kent State and BC. The surrounding cast and freshman talent seemed to inspire him; or maybe it is just a sense of relief in knowing it's no longer up to KL and him to put points on the board".

I was waiting for someone to pick up on this. Those games were coached differently. Tommie was allowed to operate on the boundaries of Majerus' offense. The results were tighter games and more opportunities for the post players.

Tommie missed 9 shots vs. Kent State. Of those 9 misses, only 4 were rebounded by Kent State. The other 5 were offensive rebounds which led to 9 second chance points. For the game Tommie was officially 5/14 in total fgs and 9/11 from the line. A very aggressive stat line in a very tight game.

In the BC game Tommie was only 3/13 from the field. 5 of those misses were rebounded by BC. We got the other 5. Those 5 offensive rebounds led to 8 second chance points. 6 of those points were by our big men. The other 2 came on a short jumpshot by Mitchell. This is classic Tommie as his penetration causes the defense to get out of position which leads to opportunities for our bigs.

If any other player on this team shoots 3/13 it is a non-productive day but for Tommie it's not. Tommie was officially 3/13 fgs and 3/5 from the line. A very aggressive stat line in a very tight game.

[JaleJarr]

From The Dude

"TL seemed to play with a tremendous amount of enthusiasm in the two contests against Kent State and BC".

Above I illustrated how the whole team benefits when Tommie is allowed to aggressively attack the rim, here I will show what happens when he plays within the restraints of the offense

Lets look at the Nebraska game. Tommie was officially 4/10 from the field with no free throw attempts. Of those 6 shots missed by Tommie, we retrieved two for a total of 2 second chance points (Conklin). None of his 6 misses were classified as layups, all jumpshots. When Tommie is turned into a jumpshooter, the whole team suffers as the defense can remain stout.

In the Detroit game Tommie was officially 6/11 from the field and 2/3 from the line. Unlike the Kent State and BC game all 5 of his misses were unproductive as they were all jumpshots rebounded by Detroit.

Tommies 16 points and 11 official shots seems aggressive but they are misleading as he scored 4 quick points after being inserted into the game in the 1st half and 11 other points came in the last 2 minutes of the game. In other words 14 of his 16 points came within a very small time frame. Now some will argue that Tommie needs to attack more but....

[willie]

From The Dude

"TL seemed to play with a tremendous amount of enthusiasm in the two contests against Kent State and BC".

Above I illustrated how the whole team benefits when Tommie is allowed to aggressively attack the rim, here I will show what happens when he plays within the restraints of the offense

Lets look at the Nebraska game. Tommie was officially 4/10 from the field with no free throw attempts. Of those 6 shots missed by Tommie, we retrieved two for a total of 2 second chance points (Conklin). None of his 6 misses were classified as layups, all jumpshots. When Tommie is turned into a jumpshooter, the whole team suffers as the defense can remain stout.

In the Detroit game Tommie was officially 6/11 from the field and 2/3 from the line. Unlike the Kent State and BC game all 5 of his misses were unproductive as they were all jumpshots rebounded by Detroit.

Tommies 16 points and 11 official shots seems aggressive but they are misleading as he scored 4 quick points after being inserted into the game in the 1st half and 11 other points came in the last 2 minutes of the game. In other words 14 of his 16 points came within a very small time frame. Now some will argue that Tommie needs to attack more but....

Jale my question to you is Tommie encouraged or discouraged from attacking the basket? I agree that we are a better team when he takes it inside. Does Rick allow him to freelance? It appears to me we are running more pick and rolls which allows Tommie to break his man down. Does the game plan change from game to game? My question is it Rick or is it Tommie. As an aside to this I don't like Kevin as the backup point guard. When he has the ball in his hands to much he tries to penetrate and that is not his game.

[JaleJarr]

Jale my question to you is Tommie encouraged or discouraged from attacking the basket? I agree that we are a better team when he takes it inside. Does Rick allow him to freelance"?

The point I'm trying to make is that Coach Majerus has a proven system. One that has won on the biggest stages. The problem at present is that he has senior players that don't neccesarily fit his system. What do you do? Do you allow those players to freelance or do you stay true to your system? I don't fault Majerus one iota for staying true to his system, its proven. People just need to realize the position these players are in before they make critical statements about a particular player's desire or performance.

It appears to me we are running more pick and rolls which allows Tommie to break his man down. Does the game plan change from game to game? My question is it Rick or is it Tommie. As an aside to this I don't like Kevin as the backup point guard. When he has the ball in his hands to much he tries to penetrate and that is not his game.

The pick and roll is only effective if the defense has to respect the guy that is setting the pick. For the last 2 years that hasn't been the case at SLU. Teams never had to respect guys like Husak and Knollmeyer when they came out and picked.The same is true now as the people who are setting the picks are freshmen. They will eventually grow into their roles but they are not there yet.

Essentially what you are doing is running a double team out to Kevin and Tommie when the big men come out and pick, this won't be the case within a few years. The big men that are being recruited into SLU are more skilled that what SLU had to offer in the past. As far as Kevin being a point guard I've never agreed with that. You take away one of his greatest skills as a scorer. Kevin with the ball draws attention. I like Kevin off the ball with his ability to find holes in the defense or as an outlet to Tommie when he is penetrating the lane.

[Clock_Tower]

I'll bite Clock. I think Tommie would be playing better statistically under Coach Soderberg simply for the fact he was recruited to play in Coach Soderberg's system. Tommie skillset has never meshed with Coach Majerus' system. Majerus' system relies on precise movements and positioning, almost robot-like. This is not criticism just a statement of fact.

Guys who are shooters will have more success in this offense. Guys who are slashers will struggle mightily in this offense. Tommie is not a classic shooter. He is a slasher who has the ability to make jumpshots. To illustrate this points lets look at Kevin, when Kevin is making his jumpshots he looks all-world on the court. When those shots are not falling he looks pedestrian.

When Kevin's shots are not falling he begins to penetrate almost everytime down. That's the worst thing you can do in this offense as there is not enough spacing and no other threats besides Kevin and Tommie to distract the defense. What happens next is the defense collapses which leads to tougher shots or turnovers.

Compare Kevin's number for the Nebraska and Detroit game to his numbers vs Kent State and BC.

Night and day.

In the 2 close games Kevin averaged 18.5ppg on 60% fg shooting (46.1 from 3 land), with 7 assists against 4 turnovers.

In the 2 bad losses Kevin averaged 10.5ppg on 17.3% fg shooting (25% from 3 land), with 3 assists against 2 turnovers.

The reason I'm using Kevin's number is to illustrate how difficult it is to score in this offense when you rely almost exclusively on penetration to score points. It simply cannot work.

Jarr. From a statistical standpoint, no doubt TL was not only given the green light by Brad but also Brad changed his whole offense around TL and KL. This, though, was also a negative for Brad. IMO, Brad did not manage his "star" players all that well. IV, for instance, did not produce his whole senior year as expected. Personally, I believe he learned to play basketball via the Greek National team after his Sophomore year and that this intensity and desire carried over for most of his Junior year but then ended down the stretch of his Junior year and did not fully get going his Senior year. IMO, Brad gave the store away to TL and received, in return, a guy not committed to defense. Remember, Brad had been more of a system guy himself. When he decided to "open up" the offense and play more up tempo, our team defense dropped like a stone. Not placing all blame on TL and KL but the role players did play better defense than these stars. Hence the comparision with Drejaj. Would I prefer TL or Drejej? Of course TL. Does TL rebound better than Drejaj? Of course.

No doubt RM is implementing his system and no doubt he is recruiting a different type of player than Brad did. Would RM have recruited TL is the question posed (and which many are ignoring)? I'll answer it. No, I don't think he would. For me to elaborate why, though, would only be overly negative. Time for such anyalysis will be plenty after the season. Now, however, I am more concerned about why TL did not start/miss the first 10 minutes of the Detroit game and why both TL and KL are not scoring more. To TL's credit, however, I do believe that his all-around effort and defensive intensity have greatly increased under RM. While he may be scoring 25 points and 10 rebounds today if still playing for Brad, I do believe he is a better and more complete player under RM.

Regarding your above stats, if you delete the last 5 minutes or so of the BC game, Kevin's figures would be more like Detroit and Nebraska.

Finally, I agree with alot of your thoughts regarding RM's system and the type of players best suited for the same. With that said, no way do I think RM's system is so inflexible that TL (and KL) cannot be effective in it. RM's system has room for slashing and attacking the basket. Compared to last year, no one guarded our center or point guard. This year, opposing teams must guard them but can leave to double team TL and KL. With a little more time, believe this team can then exploit the double teams. I will be quite surprised if teams are shutting down TL and KL like these past few games come January conference games.