courtside

It is/was my understanding that Brian was saying that even in 1 instance...a few some etc...one....that at ALL of those places...that a kid has been recruited by coaches based on their athletic prowess first or alone, even one time. This to me entails a coach or coaches contacting a grade schooler or their parents or both and actively trying to convince them to come to xyz school.(details vary) Recruiting is not...hey Jimmy came to xyz high school's grade school camp for that sport and in passing and joking manner a counselor or coach etc...says hey we'll see you when you get to xyz school. Recruiting entails coaches, boosters, etc...SEEKING out a kid for athletic prowess. Bonus if they have the academics too.(obviously all of those schools have differing degrees of academic levels too, and even differing levels in public school system) Alumnifan has a lot of good comments here about how things work in general. I merely said to Brian that to paint such a broad brush wasn't going to be accurate.

>I think high school recruiting is very relevant, although >maybe not to the current coaching staff. I personally like >hearing about local players and players we are targeting. >However, a page long post about how Chaminade is not any >better than DeSmet has no place on this board. I don't >think anyone really cares which team is better and care even >less about your opinion on the topic. It is obvious you >either graduated from DeSmet or have children who attend >DeSmet based on how aggitated you got based on a poster >asking when Chaminade and Vianney surpassed the other teams >in the MCC. But you do think it is relevant to post more than once how you disagree or don't like something? How is that any "better" than the first? Like I said, you could choose to ignore a thread, or complain to an administrator...or 3rd option keep posting in a thread you have no interest in, in response to a post you didn't like, and make yourself look like a hypocrite. I will eagerly anticipate your next post in this thread because you will continue to choose option three.

>Brian states this case very well. Private schools have to >recruit because, unlike public schools, there is no >"district" to draw from. It is VERY competitive for the >best students. Very competitive. However, people fail >to make the distinction between competing for students and >competing for athletes. As someone who has been >involved in working to attract students to private schools >for years, I can tell you that I have never once heard >anyone say, "we need to get Tom Smith because he is a great >(insert sport here) player." I am not saying that in the >past 50 years it has never happened, but anyone who thinks >that it happens at all private schools on any kind of a >regular basis is just kidding themselves. > >If there is any school that has ever been publicly accused >of recruiting, it would be Vashon based on the Riverfront >Times article this past year. Now THAT was an egregious >example of recruiting supported by a well documented set of >facts, not rumor, opinion, or innuendo. > >Also, differentiate between recruiting good athletes and >building a program that attracts good athletes. Two >entirely different things. Of course a kid who wants to >play on a good team may choose a school which has a history >of having good teams in his/her particular sport. That is >just obvious, yet some people immediately jump to the >conclusion, or perhaps errantly infer, that this is >recruiting when it clearly is not. > >"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands >up for others." - Ben I agree with all of your paragraphs...but your first one said Brian said it well...I read...and maybe misread Brian to say that all private schools also recruit for athletes only...and even listed schools....this would go against what you were saying in your first paragraph.

>It was not directed at you in particular. I have been sent >some stuff on the pm that is total bs. I think people have >used the pm to spread rumors and falsehoods with out fear of >somebody noticing it and calling them out on it. I also >know that people use it to discuss topics that they think >are off-topic. > >I just think if people want to talk about high school >recruiting they might be best served to keep it on the >board. That way nobody is able to push an agenda or put >forward incorrect information with out being called out for >it. The main topic on the board is SLU sports, and that carries over into high school basketball and the area, as it is relative to SLU. Not sure how recruiting at the high school level is relevant to the board? No offense meant to you Brian...but you are guilty of what you just preached against. Your original post had some factual errors in it. If there was an open discussion forum it would go there, there isn't anymore...hence..don't see it's place here. It is a long specific topic that can't be generalized with a brush as you did, or you might come up with several errors as you did. So I prefer to just talk about the games and teams and individuals. If somebody wants to discuss privately what they know and don't know, then I would think that would be easier and more relevant. I don't think anyone would refute your general theme, and I think most people wouldn't just throw around casually non-factual information....and those who did...not be taken seriously.

>I just found it comical that you wrote a page long post >about how Chaminade is not any better than DeSmet. It did >not appear to be warranted in the least and I am sure nobody >really cares. Enjoy performing ###### on Bob Steiner >tonight. They aren't...just as the V has played some good competition lately win or lose, just as there aren't any top end teams in STL this season...etc...I posted on topic, to a post in this thread. As I said...ignore a thread or go to an administrator if you have a problem with the thread overall. I didn't start the thread. This is a high school basketball thread. There are plenty of other threads to choose from or to start on your own.

>AJ all the private schools (Catholic or non-Catholic) >recruit. The fact they are private schools means they have >to recruit for students. They have to convince a student's >parents that it that it makes sense to spend multiple >thousands of dollars to attend their school instead of not >paying an extra dime to attend a public school. > >This does not mean that there isn't recruiting done for >particular athletes for no other reason than they are an >athlete. It most certainly does happen. All the private >schools do it to some degree. SLUH, DeSmet, CBC, Vianney, >and CCP have all done and currently do it. > >It is not as nearly rampant or the problem many people make >it out to be. Many times students who parents say that >their kid received a scholarship for basketball it is not >the case. They say that because they do not feel >comfortable sharing the fact they are in financial straights >that allows the child to qualify for a full or partial need >based scholarship. Catholic high schools, especially the >members of the MCC, give out many of these. > >But, those schools have nothing on what the county schools >that take part in the deseg program have done when it comes >to recruiting. County schools have totally destroyed the >PHL and are known to aggressively recruit from the city's >African American population. It makes what happens at the >private schools pale in comparison. > >AJ, I would suggest that you put little stock in what people >say in pm when it comes to this subject or most other >subjects. I have learned that people like to use this to >spread rumors and flat out lies. They know if they post it >on the main board it will get called out for factual errors. ] Perhaps you should practice what you preach Brian? ...An awful lot of generlizations and accusations across the board and individually at public schools, private schools...many lumped all in together, others singled out individually, without anything to back up what you say. You have mixed facts at best.

>Is this a high school basketball board now? From the >aggressiveness in your post, you likely graduated from >DeSmet and now work for a graduate of Chaminade. If you don't like a thread you can do one of two things: 1) Ignore it like most people. 2) Tell the administrator you are unhappy.

>AJ all the private schools (Catholic or non-Catholic) >recruit. The fact they are private schools means they have >to recruit for students. They have to convince a student's >parents that it that it makes sense to spend multiple >thousands of dollars to attend their school instead of not >paying an extra dime to attend a public school. > >This does not mean that there isn't recruiting done for >particular athletes for no other reason than they are an >athlete. It most certainly does happen. All the private >schools do it to some degree. SLUH, DeSmet, CBC, Vianney, >and CCP have all done and currently do it. > >It is not as nearly rampant or the problem many people make >it out to be. Many times students who parents say that >their kid received a scholarship for basketball it is not >the case. They say that because they do not feel >comfortable sharing the fact they are in financial straights >that allows the child to qualify for a full or partial need >based scholarship. Catholic high schools, especially the >members of the MCC, give out many of these. > >But, those schools have nothing on what the county schools >that take part in the deseg program have done when it comes >to recruiting. County schools have totally destroyed the >PHL and are known to aggressively recruit from the city's >African American population. It makes what happens at the >private schools pale in comparison. > >AJ, I would suggest that you put little stock in what people >say in pm when it comes to this subject or most other >subjects. I have learned that people like to use this to >spread rumors and flat out lies. They know if they post it >on the main board it will get called out for factual errors. So, since I am the one who mentioned pm's in this message...is that pm reference for me?? Just asking?

>Desmet has no real talent outside of Brandenberg and Bruin. >Chaminade is deep with decent talent, a couple mid level >stars in Nelson, Lockhart, and Starks and a team full of >shooters. They are one of the best teams in the area, an >underrated club, only losses have come against #1 McCluer >North and Berkely, really the two consensus top teams on >this side of the river. Then, would you say Steiner is a great coach? and Lee is not?...since if you say Chaminade is deep with talent and DeSmet isn't?...since their outcomes were two points in both games and DeSmet missing starters in both games? DeSmet and Chaminade played twice, both times DeSmet missed starters in two games, including a kid who scored 13 their first matchup. Both games came down to buzzer and were 2 point games. You mentioned Bruin, who you mentioned was talented...but didn't mention he didn't play first time. Not really sure where I understand you can say Chaminade is any better in hoops this season than DeSmet. I would argue that neither team is a great team...both decent...but I also argue that anyone in the top area 15 could beat another on a given night this year. Take a look at DeSmet and their tough area schedule, still doing well...but they have led almost every single game in the 4th quarter and have lost some in the 4th quarter late in games...mostly because they run out of gas with short bench....so what do I also conclude based on these results all year i games I have seen...no top level teams....some nice competitive teams...DeSmet could easily be one of top couple of teams in area if a few bounces were different... I know you have posted often on Chaminade, not sure if you are a graduate or fan...etc...or neither...but I wouldn't conclude two two point wins both where the other team missed players, one of which they trailed by 16 points in 3rd quarter to be any better than the other. I think most would say that Webster, Troy, McCluer North and Vashon would be four best STL side teams...but I do agree that many others can upset teams in post-season this year...an average DeSmet and average Chaminade team sure. For those who watch Brandenburg...he doesn't have the guards to get him the ball, nor...who can score to take the doubles and triples away from him...but he has had some 16 point double doubles recently...and 5-6 blocks...too..he is definitely going to be a high major recruit. Can really run the floor, good passer, good hands, athletic. At 6'11 they don't come around often. Let me add...that Chaminade is Berkley's biggest win by far all year. Same Berkley that lost to Gateway Tech who lost to DeSmet...are you noticing the parity yet? Chaminade? outside of what we discussed above...they have one quality win, Borgia. That's it...at a schedule, not as tough as DeSmet or any of the other schools I mentioned above. I think Lockhart has a lot of potential at guard for Chaminade. And you also have a double standard. Chaminade loses twice to McCluer North...okay...so they are cloe to McCluer North in your opinion...but not close to DeSmet in which the games overall were closer and DeSmet missed starters each game? Can't have it both ways.

>I'm not in St. Louis, but I learned they lost another tough >game against Chaminade. How did Chaminade and Vianney get >so good all of a sudden. It makes me wonder if DeSmet ruled >back in the day because they also resorted to recruiting. >By the way, I've heard of the rampant rumors of recruiting >that occurs in the private Catholic schools. Considering I know people in some of these mentioned hoops programs pretty well, I do have some knowledge on the subject...I'd be happy to take it to pm's....and will send you one. Actually I can't find you in the list for pm's. You might want to send me one and I can reply.

>Weird, Vashon beat that same team a week ago, and then got >blew out this time. I guess that's why you play the games. >For anyone who was at the ESL-Vashon, what were your >thoughts? It's why you don't judge any team based on one game. Somebody posted on here that S Medford for example didn't impress that person...their first game was tighter than expected...then they win the tourney beating both teams that beat the V. Their national schedule and results speak for themselves. Can't just watch one game and make an overall judgement on a team.

Duke's is not contiguous but has over 8600 acres...Dartmouth has a lot of land...Air Force owns 50,000 acres. As for largest in world some say Moscow State U....which is primarily built vertically...quite the site. So it is all pretty debatable. Stanford is quite the site too. Amazing a population that small with all of that land and all of those athletic successes on that land.

>courtside stated....."it is not remotely insensitive to >seniors". The seniors will be the judge of that, not the >writer. > >perhaps you meant to state...."it was not intended to be >insensitive to seniors". > >btw, I voted for your first choice. > >peace....next topic. Touche

>They are your polls....you live with your wordings and >responses. > >I agree the NIT choice was poorly worded. Not positive what >you were trying to accomplish with the "I am old" bit, or >the "I get discount at Denny's" bit in your previous poll. > >Perhaps a consistent tone in all choices would get you a >higher number of responses....but, I'll yield to the board's >Zogby rep.....A_Bomb. Fair enough. I don't know how to change the poll once already made to say I expect NIT as most of the time. A lot of teams boycotted the NCAA's several decades ago and played in the NIT instead, and it has not been that case for a long long time. I never get offended when somebody calls me old. That's cool, which actually then became..."Solid"some years/decades back ...which then became "Tight." ....the kids will have to help me if there is anything now that has replaced "tight" or "rich"..."Has something replaced tight?" I don't even know. As I stated it was a rather quick poll. It wasn't intended to mislead anyone. I would fall asleep otherwise if the latter responses weren't shorter and little more peppy. As for previous poll...it is well known that when people get to a certain age they get a discount at Denny's...a well known chain diner/restaurant. The poll itself was an age poll. Hence the option. It is not remotely insensitive to seniors. I am one of the few on here, if you go back and read the posts who actually stick up for the blue hairs, seniors, and their rights at games, and have pointed out that many on the board will one day be in that position and should still have rights at games. I respect your opinion, and to be clear I am not sure if this clears up your matter. If it doesn't, let me know.

>I'm boycotting this poll. > >Your right tseugnekillib, courtside obviously did not take >Research Methodology. Now he is eliciting our help to make >this poll right. I recommend he calls Dr. Ken Warren, noted >pollster, SLU professor, one-time CNN expert and proprietor >of his own polling company. If Dr. Warren is not available >call Dr. Uwalaka (sp) who also teaches Research Methodology. > Mr. Dr. B could get him their #. Priceless. You first come on and flame for no apparent reason instead of calmly rationally questioning or debating the poll itself. ...and instead of providing anything productive, when I even encouraged anyone to jump in with it....you,... instead of ignoring the poll, clearly your right, you "announce" that you are ignoring the poll, then flame again. So let's recap...flame, no constructive comments or actions, instead of ignoring the poll, announces ignoring the poll, then flames again. Gotcha.

>A_Bomb: > >in this poll, your genius courtside has the category....."I >want NIT, you mean the NIT isn't the preferred Tourney >anymore".... > >in his previous poll, your genius courtside has the category >"I get the discount at Denny's baby"..... > >no age bias in either poll.....right! > >he obviously didn't have the Research Methodology class that >you referenced. > >courtside is that kind of co-worker you have known for 20+ >years and have never heard them once say the phrase...."gee, >I didn't know that"! I would gladly change the wording in NIT if you are offended, and not because it mentions age, but because of anything misleading. I know of no one over the age of 55 that would object to the Denny's option. It wasn't negative in any way shape or form. Why don't you provide a gasp solution.

>I agree. His choices appear to be biased as he has made all >of them into "jokes" other than the first. And even the >premise of "expecting" to go to the post season every year >is insane. Maybe if he worded as Expecting the >administration to work hard and strive to make the tourney >every year, it would be better. But how in the world can >anybody "expect" to be in the post season every year based >on SLU's history? It's like saying we expect Wendell Bennett >to be our leading scorer. Never has that happened, never has >he demonstrated the ability to do it, and most would agree >that just can't happen. > >If you look at the post season over the past 20 years, I'd >love to see how many schools made the post season every >year. I'd also love to know which schools did that which are >not considered "high major". > >For the record, I HOPE we make the tourneament every year. This poll takes into account whatever you want it to take into account....so you say given SLU's history...realistic expectations for you are:.....pick that choice. SLU's admin for you has never had commitment to winning...etc...so with that in mind...you don't see it happening...so you expect....enter choice here You take into account the above two things...but still expect SLU to make the NCAA's more times than not, of course missing at times too...enter that choice... This is an easy poll. You the fan get to decide what you expect from SLU. If you think shoot, not a chance bub, not this school....then pick accordingly. If you think, well we are on right track and think xyz...pick accordingly. This is what you expect based on ANYTHING you want to take into account or don't want to take into account. And make a decision and pick a choice. There is no...well if this or that happens...what do you expect regardless of all of those things...you can say well realisticly this is a NIT program and I expect that. This is your poll....what do YOU expect to happen.

>Don't criticize courtside haven't you noticed his >statistical genius. > >That being said this is the worst worded poll ever (and I >know I've read all polls). If he wants some actual results >which it seems that he does based on his replies to >questions he should ask questions in a way that are easy to >understand and are non-biased. Learned that at SLU in Poli. >Sci. Research Methodology. booo-yaah edumacation The worst worded poll ever and you have read all polls. Wow, that's a lot of polls in one's lifetime. How do you keep up with all of them and this board at the same time, nothing short of amazing. So far 17% of responders(carry the one) have had trouble understanding the choices...not bad considering it was done in 5 seconds time. I am open for suggestions, why instead of posting deep thinking flaming insults don't you instead raise the bar of the board by actually providing a better poll with better choices? I think most are doing just fine by it.

>What is the point of this poll? Is it to make your self feel >better? No, the point of the poll was to guage what people expect out of the program. There has been some debate. There was a past poll in which 100% of the board expected a certain thing. A poster said they misunderstood the poll...a debate ensued and I posted another poll. I don't care what anybody chooses. I want to better understand expectations of people on the board and SLU fans. That is the point of the poll, so I can understand better.

I know they are getting the forward Josh Boernecke from O'Fallon....they missed out on Andy Adlard, stud midfielder with Chicago Magic club team...who had narrowed to SLU, IU and New Mexico...he is picking IU. ..etc..haven't heard a lot...but that is more a reflection of me not knowing vs SLU not getting. Obviously signing day is soon. Top Drawer Soccer should have a running tally/list...for anything I don't know or miss. And obviously people know about Roach to IU, Grossman to Duke, Clendenney to SMU...etc...from the area.

Dr. B in this thread said that LM was the "Posterboy" of this program, and then elaborated...etc...

I am not even here to lobby for a choice. I believe in democracy(given all chocies are healthy choices etc..) I do hope many people vote. If it gets only a smattering I would accept the results and respond accordingly.

I have NEVER seen more than 30 respond to a poll. To me it is like any other voting. If given a free anonymous way to vote for your choice, and you choose not to at all...I don't then care about the 700 registered users. What I would do is try to keep the poll at the top so everyone can see it and has a chance to respond over an extended period of time, because many people can only stop by once a week or month ...etc... And if then it gets few votes, well, then I would conclude that most people are apathetic and don't really care at all....and that would be my conclusion.

Actually if I were to add a choice it would have been top 25. There is a choice for NIT as regularity. There is a choice for No post-season...that is 5 Rex Hudlers. There is a choice for NCAA most but certaily not all years. There is a choice that you cannot win at SLU, period. I think there are plenty of choices. Billikan ...you have to make the decision, I cannot make it for you...you must decide between...NCAA most years...NIT most years...Neither most years....or I even gave an extra on the fence choice of pipe dream. This is a poll about winning...while I do appreciate your comments on graduation, cleanliness. If this were Michigan or Seton Hall...and instead of picking expectations...if the poll said what is Seton Hall and Michigan right now....the correct poll response would be NIT or Rex Hudler most likely. But this isn't about MI or Seton Hall...this isn't about what they are currently....this is about what you..Billikan expects the SLU program to be...what do you eagerly anticipate...expect for SLU. What do you want Billikan? Rex Hudler is the try hard, improve, character...probably the closest answer you are looking for. Since all of the kids are eligible etc...academically...I made it understood that you can skip to the winning part, because SLU only gets good kids anyway right? right. Good. If you need any other help let me know.

To put it nicely, 7 people have voted. I believe 30 something people voted in the last poll on the board...and 20 in my last poll on same topic. It doesn't bother me at all. I didn't have "hopes" for any choice. Considering SLU lost two bad games and squeaked another, it is highly possible some have decided to say well, just can't win at SLU...SLU will never be a winner. Others have said then and now that they expect a winner. I for one expect a winner, not discouting all ingredients needed in a winner, recruitng, coach, admin, etc..I will never lower my expectations. They are realistic considering all factors involved. Nothing made me smile more than the ingenious(and I am being serious) person who posted for 5 Rex Hudlers. It means one of two things...one they "get it," and are further illustrating my point that trying hard with less is good enough at SLU, a wonderful post of choosing less on purpose to show anything is suffice at SLU...knowing its response would draw attention. Or it means they didn't care enough about it and tried to haphazardly tried to be funny...again also would be illustrating the point on the other end that not enough people care or believe in the possibility of a winner. I will let it all play out and see what the people want. I believe in democracy, and if people choose otherwise, that is fine. It will then give me a better understanding of the board. Up until now I have posted with the thoughts that people expected more, because they posted they they did. I can also speak about lowering expectations too. If tht is what the people expect...then there should be a TON of Billikans on this board. ...certainly the majority.