Taj79

I have to admit that when I wrote my frist reply above, I had NOT read Vahe's entire story. Now that I have, this particular excerpt struck me: "Since Quin Snyder took over at Missouri in April 1999, the MU men's basketball program has been the subject of 17 self-reports (15 to the NCAA, two to the Big 12 Conference). Snyder often has stated his intention to run a clean program and declined to be interviewed for this story." The line didn't strike me in the least ... what bothered me, aj, was your failure to include this little tidbit in your opening thread. Why not take Quin to task for declining to be "ethical?" Why "ethical?" Because thats what you equate things to in your opening graph to the thread .... you wrote "While legal(ly), this is certainly is their right, it doesn't appear to be ethical to me." I did not know that you were an ethics expert or professor, but in any case, and as I said before, you are entitled to your opinion. But I doubt that you are qualified to offer an opinion on ethics. I know I'm not so don't get too upset at me for this statement. Finally, you wrote this "Why should the Illini and Mizzou be held to a higher standard to SLU since both are equal members of the NCAA?" This uses warped logic to turn this into an ethical issue regarding standards. And the fact that they are three of 325 members of the NCAA in Division I basketball has absolutely nothing to do with it. Its not ethics and/or ethical .... its the FOIA issues prevalent under public versus private. Ethics had nothing to do with it. Yet you seem to believe it is. Unlike others who may bash the Mizzou-lover in you, I enjoy your posts and acknowledge the debate over the other side of the issue. But what you did to start this thread is the quintessential "taking things out of context" defense that many misquoted folks use when they don't engage their brain before thinking to the press. As I said, I have read Vahe's entire article now and I couldnt' agree more with broy when he disowns any blame from Gregorian. I think he did a very good job. SLU didn't hide, they spoke. While it may not have been Woolard and it was not to specifics, Professor Ross was quoted on several occasions. The topper is the subject of this thread and it sums up distinctly where you were going. "What is SLU hiding?" It would appear that your very intention was the disturbing that someone else has mentioned on here as well. But ... whatever is your interpretation is your interpretation. Again, you'r eentitled to it ..... no matter how right or wrong it may be.

Vahe asked; Woolard said no based on the advice of counsel. Case closed. Unless you happen to know what that advice was or where it was directed, you don't have a case. It might be that it involves some names that the University does not have the right to release. Could be privacy act things. Who knows. You win some; you lose some. A state university can engage taxpayer dollars and build itself a bb palace. The private school has to go on a massive fundraising drive. Advantage: Public. A public school then becomes subject to Freedom of Information Act language. A private school is not. Advantage: Private. How about this, tho, aj .... if all we have to show for our "violations" is Drew Diener, Chris Braun, Ross Varner, etc.... we suck at violations as well. Maybe counsel is also saying that we don't want to play that "us versus them; SLU versus Mizzou" game in the local papers and in the court of recruiting violations. As a public opinion professional, I would have weighed in on the side of cooperating with the PD at first blush and show we have nothing to hide. As a media professional, I also know that the media rarely is telling you what they really want when they make their request. So I would have advised no on that account. But I think the winner is the thought line that this is Mizzou's problem ... we stay out of it, comparison sake or not. Could also be seen as a "professional courtesy" item to boot. We don't come to their defense but we stay calmly quiet on the side. You might (or one, not just an aj) might interpret that as "hiding." Fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Bottom line: there's smoke at ol' Mizzou. It's their bed, let them make it by themselves. No help ---- either way ---- from anyone should be necessary. Does Slu run a "squeaky clean" program? I don't know. But given the complexity of NCAA guidelines and bylaws, I sincerely doubt it. If 50 cents is a gray area, whew .... glad I don't have to interpret that every day.

i can see brad soderberg being at slu a long time. at least i hope so. goddammit broy ... which one is it? A lock long time or an i-hope-so long time??????? ya might bet the house on this one or ya might not? I think Soderberg is a potential long timer. If he can get to the dance more times than not and developer his style and his program, then he stays for a while. But let's face it, this program has not been the end-all stop for anyone ... EVER. Short of Rich Grawer. The university is making some commitments that I have never really seen before so that is good. But make no mistakes, when this program's head job comes open, its always the up-and-coming assistants that get talked about more so than the establishment. Spoon was an aberration that I believe Debbie Yow had a lot to do with. She seems to have had and still has vision. I still have no clue why a west coaster like Romar got lured in here. But if you follow the trend, you're going to have to take someone moving on up (Weber) or someone starting out (Gregory). This is a layover for most, not a final destination.

david ... to me, you have just described, in a recruiting-vein, the difference in SLU and almost any big time, top level program. Unfortunately, this is what Brad Soderberg is left with. He need to take the types of kids you described above and create an atmosphere that produces winning seasons and NCAA bids. And he will have to do it, at least for the time being, with the type of recruits you have described above. That's his challenge. Only after he wins for a while (i.e. Gonzaga, Xavier, Butler, Creighton, etc.) will he 1) be able to entice the local kids of talent to stay home and fight for Old Alma Mater U., and 2) will he have any chances at getting a top player (A top player .. not A FEW) to commit to the program as well. This is the crawl stage. That stage will be populated with Husaks, Frericks, Clarkes, Morris, etc. for a while. It needs to breed longevity ... which I have called for in the form of four-year recruits more than JUCO stop gaps. Hopefully it will lead to the walk stage in two or so years. Is Polk the start of the walk? Maybe. Its sectional ..... and you're description above is where we've been at since Hughes. Frankly, Mizzou made the right move in hiring Quin. He's elitist as they come IMHO. Not that that's wrong .... that where they want to go (we all do) and they offer more right now in getting Quin to his goals. With his pedigree, he won't come here. This was supposed to be Spoon's last hurrah. Romar used it as a stepping stone to where he wanted to go. Soderberg is using it to get back into a game that he might believe Wisconsin stiffed him out of. But out of them all, I'll take Brad's needs and use it for ours. Same with his staff. But what you started this thread with is SLU in a nutshell on one aspect of the overall program. That's our reality and we have to live with it. We have little to no margin for error. That's SLU life, sports fans. Making do with less.

Could it be tied to that "verteran's exemption" thing I hear so much about? Some sort of old-age (older aged, I guess) exemption where they don't have to pay market rates for like one guy on the team who signs for some veteran's minimum and maybe that doesn't count against his pension numbers .... if the numbers are as you say they are. Schasz has got to be right and Malone is indeed shrewd on his investments. I remember being in Salt Lake on business and the local news was running something about things not only he was into but his wife was as well. He doesn't need money ... now or later. Unless his investments head south in the future. Kid from my hometown was a lefty with the Expos .... Chris Nabholtz. Went to school near here at Towson State. A big six-foot, seven-inch lefty. One would figure with the likes of Jesse Orosco and John Franco and Dennis Cook that if a lefty reliver even passed gas, there would be a job for him in the majors. Nabholtz got hurt, fell out of favor with the Expos, ended up with the tribe and called it quits in his late 20's. Now, I don't know what he made, or what he invested or what his pension is ... but the only place to find him since he "retired" is the golf course. He might have been 1/100th as successful as the Mailman ... if that. But he ain't hurting either right now so however it works, it works out pretty well for these guys. I don't go to pro games anymore. This is sort of a part of it as well.

Not to defend Mizzou ... but COnley wanted to leave, yes? This wasn't some dumb kid walking down the campus who's cell phone goes off unexpectantly in his pocket with "Quin Calling" playing on the read our. Or "Tubby Calling." Or "Lute Calling." Or anyone else for that matter. I've got to believe that the kid and or the kid's mom made the initial calls. In today's sleaze of college recruitn, who wouldn't at least call back. I can't get into how many times or how long the duration .... that would only add to the speculation and I've railed on that long enough with the Conference scenarios. I think the line of conversation between MU and broy might have some credence to it. If you penalize the winners, you would have to penalize the losers as well. The fact that MU and broy agreed made my mind wander to Arafat and Sharon. Peace can be achieved! I applaud Romar for his loyalty to Dollar even though I think its going to cost him in the long run. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dollar disappear from the Huskie scene quietly, once all this has gone down in the public eye. Give him a year's severance pay where he can still live but shoosh him away from the Huskies. I think Mizzou, through all this, has raised some red flags on its file down at NCAA HQ. If I were Quin, I'd be real careful that all my staff AND all my boosters, play it real close to the vest for a few years. A pattern is developing here and all it will take is one p*ssed off parent, kid or opponent and charges will come in. The history of late has not been good and the conviction could come in on the "where there's smoke there's fire" theory. As for Conley ... leading the nation at VMI is one thing. Let's see how good he really is at a major conference school. Again ... show me.

Nice report, thicks. Sounds like a very raw group that needs the time on the floor together as a team we have all been talking about. Floyd McClain's progress report sounds good as well ... if for nothing mor ethan trying to get a handle on just what, if anything, this guy will ever provide. I hope he's healthy enough all year to finally get a chance to show what he's got. Given that Fisher is the only current Bill getting a high mark on your report, I am still inclined NOT to set my sights too,too high. Patience will indeed be a virtue.

I'll agree with you there broy .... that this program is NOT as good as you think it is. I see your point on the locality of the buy-in games. It would probaly be a little better for the area types and the local flavor to have some of the schools you have mentioned. It would definitely beat Savannah State and some of those other dregs of directional schools that we end up with. Hell, you want directions, play SEMO. Of course, they all have to be DI at the least. New item on agenda: Trump Taj Mahal, August 31, Blue Man Group/The Complex Tour. Saw them at Luxor. Got to do it again.

broy said "to put us in a "gotta take the billikens" rpi range for the ncaa." I owuld argue that if it comes down to rpi range for us versus someone else, and that someone else is named Butler, Dayton, SIU-C, Creighton, Valpo or maybe some others, we get just as much credit erased for being the "billikens" as we gain for having a respectable rpi. Why? Someone in another thread said something like "what have you done for me lately" and I think that was in the power one sees in the likes of Marquette, Dayton and Xavier. Thye have more "power" because of what they've done lately. What have we done? Yes, we had an exciting run last year at the end but we all know that we needed to run the table to lock it up and we didn't do that. The NIT was an unexpected reward for that run. I would argue that none of us thought we'd get that far in the dark days of December and January. The same goes for our "salability" as far as being included in the up front discussions with a conference merger. What the heck have we done that merits being one of those considered at the top? If all we have to offer is the luck of our TV market, I'd say forget it. That's why I'm not on the upside end of many of these merger talks. RPI is always going to justify the fifth and sixth palce teams of the big conference getting the lower at-large bids. The Villanova's, Seton Hall's, G-Towns, NC States and so on. They have to play the big boys of the world twice a year ... sometimes three in conference tourney play. Even if the RPI comes down to us .... look at Butler. They had a nice RPI the last two or three years and had to maintain that to get the consideration for only making it at large last year. What had they done lately? A lot ... it got them their bid, finally. We have two or three years of proving to do. We need to establish a winning program. I think the buy-in games go a long way in doing that. As gister said and I have said ... six newcomers to this team means a lot of gelling early. While as a fan I want to see the 'Zona's of the world, as a billiken realist I don't see that being the greater need right now. Now, if Brad wins and wins again next year, then we can seriously think of upgrade the buy-ins. Crawl. Walk. Run. This is the format you keep falling back into every time a program reloads with a new coach and now a new coach with six new players.

This in today's Baltimore Sun: http://www.sunspot.net/sports/college/bal-...ports-headlines Hopefully this will link but it doesn't seem to want to. Anyway, it is the speculation that Louisville is the next one to go to the ACC. Many have said this before. There is also discussion on Notre Dame, listing some of some others points as well. Of course, its all speculation again ....

I went to SLU because it was the big city. I fell in love with the town one night on a two-week trip to see colleges. SLU wasn't even on my radarscope when we left eastern PA. that summer. We saw ... in order .... Ohio State, Dayton, Butler, Indiana Central, Saint Louis, Notre Dame, DePaul, Marquette, Michigan, Michigan State (okay maybe reverse those two), Detroit, Niagara, Canisuis (sp?), Gannon, Pittsburg, Carnegie Mellon and Duquesne. My second choice was Marquette. The big schools scared me, frankly. Even though the first stop, Ohio State, had a gorgeous blonde coed riding her bike in front of our car, downt he middle of campus in cutoff shorts with her black lace udnerwear hanging out the bottom ... I chose to try and find her at Saint Louie Ewie. I would not revisit my decision. The experience I had there I would not trade for the world .... even though I kno bonwich and broy personnally now. Live and learn. All I said is that whatever Claggs said, it wasn't that bad and not that far from the truth in some minds. Frankly, I do not believe I would have graduated from a big school or not. More speculation. I suspect not but who knows. Who said this is like the grass is always greener? Could be. But would I change what I did? Am I sorry? H-E-L-L no!!!!!

Don't you find this quote a little interesting .... "In late May and June, Banks took a math and English class at Notre Dame Prep School in Fitchburg, Mass., passed both, and left the school in late June, said Bill Barton, the school's basketball coach." I don't know about you guys, but I can't recall where a full "class" lasted (according to this) two months. He took both a math and English class in this time and passed both. Sounds a little closer to the Ricky Clemons stuff with Southern Idaho and all that. Also the article talks about Memphis people doing all they can to put Banks in situations to improve his grades. Another interesting item, eh?!?! I suspect this is a PhD in the making later down the line. Gangs. School transfers. Criminal records. The typical American basketball success story. I'll bet he can't even spell N-B-D-L.

Who's our lawyer type? Is that davidnark or Billiken Law? I will give you great marks for looking at things from teh "half-full" side or even higher but all these things you offer are pure conjecture. Speculation. Circumstantial evidence? I am with you in hoping that all you speculate on comes true but Bryant only averaged about 9 a game with 'Nova in his last season there. You've got him at 15 a game. Some have him even higher. Some have dissed JJ as a head case. I'll call him a redshirt and leave it at that. The guys you list as shooters may have had a game here and there but consistency was not their trademark. Some, again like Bryant and JJ, have had a year off from the real thing. I commend you on your optimism. But if we go back to the court case scenario, I think your arguments get booted right now. Lack of evidence. Speculation and hearsay. But keep the good thoughts coming.

If I can't ... I'll make one up. I've been in that "disorder" section of humankind for some time now. No Orlando, roy ... did that a few years ago. Girls want the Caribbean next year. Since the parents returned from last year's Aruba trip.

I think the poster is biased ..... but aren't we all. What would prevent some over-zealous Billiken fan from writing similar stuff about his "team?" This Cincy fan is entitled to that opinion and his ability to compare the coming roster with some pretty high ranking previous rosters makes me envious. But if one wanted to, any fan of any team could make similar comparisons. In any sport. What's the phrase ... "hope springs eternal" ..... Again through the proof will be in the pudding and the reality that the end of a season brings. I went on the CUSA tlak board and could not believe one Cincy fan gushing poetically about how Huggs is the "second cahnce" cahnce. That he is so concerned ... passionately concerned .... about the individual that he gives soem of these lesser types that proverbial second chance. To make a long story short, I got b*tch slapped all over the place for disagreeing. For laughing at the statement. And rightly so in a way ... they defended their perceptions. Perceptions are much harder to fight than the reality of it all. So I bowed out, realizing that I was preaching to the choir and could not win. But this could be an example anywhere. That's what fans of a program do. This guys is no different. Maybe Whaley is the next Carmelo Anthony? Who knows. Maybe its this Iti kid. Rodney White was pretty spectacular his one yar in Charlotte green. This kid is supposedly better. But only product will tell. Coudl the Bills have the next Carmelo Anthony? Reggie Bryant is from Baltimore. He at least has that going for him ....... like my old freind Joaquin Andujar used to say ...."youneverknow."

We can debate if you want but until all these shakedown, aftershocks happen, its all speculation to me. I seem to recall broy mention this very scenario ... what roy .... about a year or more back? I think then the talk was centered a little more with Louisville getting some top billing back then. I admit to getting tired with all the "what if ..." drills, both in this arena and especially where I work. I prefer people talk to me in the reality of the event .... that doesn't dismiss you from being a boy scout and being prepared, but I hate to waste a lot fo energy over ten "what ifs" when only one of them turns into the reality of it all. This is more so probably a knock on my makeup more than anyone elses. Therefore, I dump this article in ther with Gordo's. It says nothing new other than confirming with quotes what we know or speculate to be true. Cloak-and-dagger. Backroom wheeling and dealing. I think someone somewhere has some sort of diagram that put this personality of mine into some definition. But really, I don't care ... make those damn chips fall ...... somewhere .... anywhere ....

NBC ... the Notredame Broadcasting Company. All theirs with one share ... to Touchdown Jesus! You'd ahve to really sweeten the pot for these guys to give that up .... and if they do that, I for one don't believe that's very fair.

Good points, well taken, aj ... also let's remember that at Prosser High in Chicago, Marque was a "three" ... a smallish small forward who probably blew by guys much taller than he. I still remember that when he was recruited to SLU by Spoon, there was talk that he had to "learn" to play the "one." I would close my argument here saying he never really got the assists skills of the "one" down in his career here --- reasons can be debated forever but do NOT solely resy on Marque's shoulders. And i would rank Marque in some of my top ten lists for Billiken players based on his closing run here. So it is not that I think badly of Marque and his skills. That's the reality of the NBA. Now, as a very small six-footer in the nBA, without those assist skills, coupled with a questionable outside shot, and with all the speed already existing in the NBA, he just may be out in the cold.

Frankly nothing new here that we haven't heard before but backed up with some quotes from the commishes. Someone mentioned how Notre Dame doesn't need to share its pot with anyone and I still agree with that. Coupled with the fact that their schedule would, under this scenario, mean Miami, Florida State, Virginia Tech almost every year. I can't see them dropping the "traditionals" on their schedule like Michigan, Michigan State, USC, lately Nebraska, and even the long-standing traditions with the service academies that are, honestly, woefully underequipped to play these guys eyar in and year out. Notre Dame's real or perceived notoriety as the "national" insitution still means it doesn't need a conference for football. Again ..... pure speculation ... take out its quotes and you have that Gordo rehash from the Post a few weeks back. Nothing new here that we haven't heard before. Make it happen and then we'll see.

... as promsied from below!!! Guarded optimism is welcome .... but having been with this program for nearly thirty years and throwing out the four that are the Claggs years, the Hughes year and the Miracle in Memphis year, I need to be shown a whole lot before I start bankingon some of these high-ended predicitons and forecasts. I used to get carried away as well. I'll never forget the letdown that was the year of the JUCO .... Manuel, Tadysak and Ivester. Six newcomers with less than stellar returnees is my reasoning. Show me and surprise me are my buzz words for the upcoming year.

Sorry thicks ... that thread got so long that I dropped it. Now that I've read the whole thing, I can see where you and I are on the same page. Frankly, I'm tired of the whole "crystal ball" gazing that permeates the summer down time. I think its broy in the above thread that talks about Bryant might be the next Cranford, Vouyoukas the next Nondas, and Frericks the next tadysak. Now that is a horro story in the making if true. But broy is looking at the same ball all the others have. The view is just left open to interpretation. I think its BigMac who predicts our main competition to be Charlotte, UAB, DePaul and Memphis. Overlooking Marquette, Cincy and Louisville is purely ludicrous! And he overlooked all three. That's balls in my book .... the three most successful programs in the conference. One school (UC) which is a "relock and reload" school at any time. Wow! Guts there. But let's say we get to Novbember, and Steve does his usual "pick the record" poll. What do you do? With six newcomers as we've both noted, I think the optimism must be in guarded condition at best. Sorry I didn't rise to your defense but I'll make a note in another thread. I'm with you .... but all opinions (excepts Joe's) are welcome.

The thread below was getting too long .... I for one have to say "so what" about Claggs statement on KFNS. In some cases, I'd tend to agree with the "total college experience" and it not being totally available at SLU. Many times I ownder what it would have been like with five or six home football games a year to go to as opposed to being bussed out to Fenton for home soccer games at that time. The only game we went to was the Bronze Boot at Busch and its hard to get excited with 50K empy seats staring down at you. I too might have pined long and hard for the total experience. Currently, we have two kids away at college .... Gem City Fan has one at Notre Dame and one at Illinois. Going to parent's weekend is a thrill at both places. He constantly reminds me how we might have missed out by going to SLU. But to the person who raised the issue about more things to do in a city as opposed to middle of nowhere, you are right. Nothing comes without sacrificing something. My kid is a high school junior to be. I keep looking at things around here for her. I have to admit I'm pushing UMd for bigger and better things in athletics for the old man to go to. Maybe adopt a second school. Just can't believe I'd root for ACC football ... the new or the old version. But what a trip that might be for basketball, eh? Oh well to each his own. Mizzou football might be like Billiken basketball anyway .... not in that elite group that is destined to rule the gridirons year in and year out. No matter the coach ... what's he going to sell Mizzou on to some future recruit? The chance to play Nebraska, Texas, K State and Colorado each year? The chance to play AND get the crap kicked out of you each and every year? I would argue that based on Mizzou's past 30 or so football editions, they have just as tough a sell in football as we might in basketball. As for my kid, she doesn't care. She seems afraid of the size of a larger university but her aunt is a Terp grad so its not all that bad. Time will only tell. If Claggs said what he said, so what. Its probably true.

And make no mistake on my part Schaz .... I am right with you on the Soderberg eval as well. I like his energy and his enthusiasm. I like his credo in defense first. I like the way that he hung tough with the early season adversity and getting the Bills to buy into his system. I will admit that I don't like the old ABC Wide World of Recruited Athletes thing with Israel and Greece but I can allow for the slack. Again only time will tell but so far so good from this evaluator on the Brad beginnings. With the exceptions of Fisher, Varner and Sloan, the Romar cupboard was left bare. And you can probably start a good debate on the three mentioned above. But broy's hit on always the bridesmaid appears to be ringing quite true. Before anyone jumps into the "Bills in NCAA" pool just yet, I again preach caution ..... these guys have never played together as a team just yet. The preseason and the out-of-conference season I expect will be brutal no matter who gets pinned up there. I believe that teams like UT Martin and SMS might give us more trouble than we can reasonably expect. When i consider that Fisher and Sloan are about the best we return with part-times in IO and Drejaj, that's not good ... no matter how well you paint it. Patience in 03/04 will be my motto. You heard it here in July.

This comes back to a similar issue or question I've always asked ... If you're good enough to go to Program A ... why would you want to stay home and play for Program Z? In this thread you have North Carolina as A and Washington as Z. The alphabeticals are used to denote prominence, yes. But think about Chris Carrawell, Jahidi White, David Lee, Darius Miles, LaPhonso Ellis, and the Z Program becomes us. Altho I do like the fact that it was broy pointing out that 'Zo seems to be good at finishing second. I know he likes the guy and there's no fault in that but it is a truthful admission nonetheless. Our lightening in a bottle may have been the Clagg/Highmark/H years. We didn't keep that momentum. We saved one year with the Legend. We caught a Miracle in Memphis. Throw out those four years and the best we have are a couple of NIT appearances at best. Again, not a successful program in my definitions.

Three-star's posted article quotes Jason as saying he has "two years." Is that correct? Secondly, any comments on his quote that Kent State wants him to be "the go to man" on the Flashes this year? Kent State has had some nice runs the last few years ... is this a fair statement, that they'd recruit Jason to be that man? Must be pretty easy overall to essentially flunk out of school and then .... WHAM .... one year later, you're eligible and every thing to be go to men and key point guards as in Edwin's and Pulley's cases. I can't help but wonder how that happens. Got to be those philosphy and theology requirements at SLU again. Is it still nine hours per for a degree in the A&S fields? Hey .. I could be wrong, but before the bashing starts, just what did these guys take to get so eligible so quickly? Inquiring minds want to know.