billiken_roy Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 even if the only true issue is free clothes to clemons, well, rick majerus has utah on probation for buying the team a pizza at a film watching session. so why will missouri get off again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I never said they'd "get off." I said the penalty would most likely be self-imposed recruiting restrictions. Probation is also not out of the question. What you seem to be having trouble with is the unfortunate fact that Mizzou is unlikely to get any sort of postseason ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 it has been a few years since my college days, but memory serves me correctly the actual time per class to for a summer school class was about 3-4x that during the regular semesters. if clemons truly passed 24 hours of schooling in one summer school session concurrently at 3 different institutions, some one please lay out a daily schedule for me to show what a typical ricky clemons summer school day was like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Well, It seems to me that Ricky Clemons had a lot of people interested in helping him to succeed. Barton, Southern Idaho, and Missouri all decided the amount of classes he would need- and then he had a summer to do them. The BYU credits were cleared by the university, so what's called into question is the adams college and barton CC credits. I'm not saying he didn't cheat (he very well might have), but if all you're doing in a particular summer is schoolwork, I don't think it's impossible to think that someone could achieve more credits than normal. It really depends on the desire of the student I suppose. Basically what i'm saying is that i think we should agree that there's reasonable doubt for either side (fraud or no fraud). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_arete Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I'll admit when you and I went to school that it would be next to impossible to take on a 24 hour class load. But with the advent of the internet, dumbing down of many college institution, especially JUCOs, it's not that cut and dry. Everyone knows correspondence courses are a joke. In fact, UMSL faculty, which I will leave unnamed, really were upset when UMSL decided to go the internet route. But that's how American society is nowadays, we like things to be easy and convenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big City Bob Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Well, well...MU President Elson Floyd leaves the meeting with NCAA officials and feels "much better" (according to today's Post-Dispatch). I recall hearing immediately after the infamous ATV accident, that President Floyd had taken Clemons "under his wing", and had been "mentoring him". The next day the line had changed. Why,Floyd hardly knew who Clemons was; probably wouldn't even recognize him if Clemons, wearing his Mizzou bb uniform, bumped into him. That Ricky was attending a party at his place, and driving his vehicle, hardly seemed to matter. Gee, how could Elson be expected to know that Ricky was supposed to be in custody, if he doesn't even know who he is. Mizzou is a big school, and the president can't be expected to know the names of all the students. This ,of course, is nonsense; Clemons was one of the best known students on campus. Floyd knew all about him and what was required of him. But, none of that mattered. After all, Floyd is the President of Missouri University, and therefore the most powerful person around...perhaps (in his mind}, the most powerful person in all of Missouri. Floyd, in his arrogance, went ahead and invited Ricky to his party, and let him ride his ATV. He didn't plan on that inconvenient mishap, but, so what? He won't be taken to task for it. He is, remember, Th President of Mizzou, and therefore above state law. The Mizzou trustees seem prepared to let him slide on the matter; he expects the NCAA officials to be generous too. No, President Floyd is not part of the solution, he is a big part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTGR Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 That sounds more like what you hope will occur rather than what probably will occur. While I personally expect some sort of action from the NCAA, I'm starting to believe it won't be as severe as all of you are hoping for. MU: Academics no longer in probe By MIKE DeARMOND The Kansas City Star Missouri officials were told Thursday that allegations of academic fraud on the MU campus involving former basketball player Ricky Clemons are no longer a part of an NCAA probe. A source within the MU athletic department told The Star that the NCAA is still investigating allegations that Clemons received improper benefits — including cash and clothing — while he was a member of the men's basketball team during the 2002-03 school year. MU systems president Elson Floyd and four other school officials met with NCAA staffers for two hours in Indianapolis. Late Thursday night, Floyd told the Associated Press he was relieved by the turn of events. “Personally, I feel much better about there not being a possibility of any academic violations having occurred, but we need to wait and see what the NCAA says,†Floyd said. http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/s...souri/7417572.h Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Roy with predjudice put aside, you have to admit that the average prof and asst prof at Mizzou has to be very concerned about this. The fact that Eldon, "feels better about the NCAA not finding academic fruad" only at BEST clrears Missou of academic fraud. It does not mean that tutor were not cheating by writing papers or giving to much assistance in writing them, nor does it mean that ricky was not paid money, nor does it mean that Barton CC did not commit fraud with respects to Rickys brief but productive summer their. The NCAA and the FBI are probably interviewing and adding up the money Clemons needed to buy the things he did week in week out, if that sum is bigger than any grant he would typically get then I think the NCAA will conclude that some one was giving him money outside the rules of the NCAA.... I would expect sometime to here about the internal investigation. As for quin he is putting on a PR show to save his image, cuts his hair, air brushes clemons out of the media guide and rumor has it his hair was air brushed out of some of those pictures as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTGR Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 My guess is that at this point, Pulley's transcripts have been looked more closely by more people from more different organizations than any other division 1 athlete currently attending any NCAA institution. Same goes for Clemmons. Although I was highly suspicious of the circumstances surrounding Clemmons' becoming eligible at MU, if the NCAA spends months looking at it and if in fact they conclude there was no improper conduct, that's good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 It sounds to me as though some of these posts I read on here are just filled with sophomoric, immature bias against an institution. I personally have started posting here because I am good friends with steve, and know I can count on him for a good discussion regarding college basketball, be I a mizzou fan or not. I'm starting to see that Steve is the exception, not the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTGR Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Have you heard the rumors about the second air brusher? Do you think they acted alone, or was it a cia plot, or maybe the mafia, or maybe even Castro? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_arete Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 That is how Ricky did that. Now you can say it's not right and plenty of faculty will agree with you, but it's a service that is provided for athletes and non-athletes alike. No, you don't have to spend any time in the classroom. You just have to have access to a computer. Basically, you have to show up to finish the final exams. It's very doable. If Bonwich, Roy, and anyone else have a problem with it, I'd suggest that you address that with college presidents nationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 How any Mizzou fan can sit back and act like no violation or any wrong doing in any of this ever happened is beyond me! As far as some teachers at Mizzou wanting Quin gone - that is probably true. I can see many teachers wanting him gone. More teachers than not care about the education of the students and when educational integrity is in question, they probably have a real problem with that as it now effects their credibility as well, if it happens at the institution where they reside. On the other hand, just because a student couldn't make it at SLU, doesn't mean they can't at Mizzou. I have several friends who couldn't hack it at SLU and went to Mizzou to excel. In terms of the comment about SLU versus Mizzou academically. It has nothing to do with private vs. a state school. There are programs that Mizzou offers SLU does not and there are programs that Mizzou offers that are better than what SLU offers. But, I can GUARANTEE you that overall from one end to the other, SLU is a better academic school and certainly holds it's athletes to higher standards. I think it was David Nark that shamed SLU for not keeping Pulley eligible. I agree with that 100%. If a student can qualify then we should be able to keep them or there is a flaw in the system. That's just my opinion and I know others will shun me for that and tell me that the athlete needs to be accountable, but that only goes so far. If you are offering an athlete a scholarship and a free education, housing, meals, etc - than you damn well better make sure he / she stays academically eligible. We don't hesitate to control these athletes in a lot of ways, so why not this. Yes, I know it will occasionally happen, but that should be a rarity. As far as NCAA sanctions, corrupt crap goes on everywhere and SLU is not immune from that. There are way too many outside resources and influences to control that stuff. So, it comes down to at what level and who was involved with it when it does happen and there should never be smoke surrounding a head coach. I had three very close friends on athletic scholarships at Mizzou and they will tell you today that the program was corrupt then. That was over 10 years ago, so who knows now. I guess we will all find out if any of this stuff holds true. But, just because no sanctions or punishments come from it, doesn't mean things didn't go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I can't rightfully speak for any individual institution, but based on the amount and content of the "academic integrity" documents thrust upon me as a teacher, I'm reasonably sure that Wash. U. would quite forcefully reject any transcript that showed 24 hours earned in a summer, regardless of source. I would hope that SLU would, too. In the case of Mizzou, they had prime opportunity to reject Clemons based on that transcript, and they looked the other way. The alleged "leader" of the University has had numerous opportunities to state clearly that such an obvious total lack of standards will not be tolerated in the future (and further, to admit that acceptance of those hours in the first place illustrated a gross lack of academic integrity). President Floyd is obviously politician first, sports fan second and guardian of the insitution's academic reputation about 73rd or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 so what you are saying is that basically since missouri accepts correspondence courses, it is basically nothing more than a correspondence school.........................................................................t at is such a disappointment. here i had built this picture as of late that missouri might actually be an institution to be held in high academic esteem. sighhhhhhhh. again, as bonwich so elegantly detailed, the fact missouri was a party to accepting such, they are as guilty as whomever doled the fake courses out. as to you suggesting i take it up with missouri higher ups, i assume you mean this clown of a president, floyd the barber. yeah, he's got a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Why would this surprise you, Roy? You know you and I could both go to the Virgin Islands and get our MD in six months and then you would be Dr. Roy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 "But, I can GUARANTEE you that overall from one end to the other, SLU is a better academic school and certainly holds it's athletes to higher standards." In all fairness, we hashed out some of this issue last year on the board, and at least from a numeric standpoint (test scores and class rank of incoming students, for example), the "better academic school" is not easily defensible. One could argue that SLU is marginally better in some things and Mizzou in others, but the statistical variance was neglible. I wouldn't argue about the athletes, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Very good. You've proven yourself to be at least my age, or younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 as to the comments about keeping the likes of pulley eligible while at slu, romar told us at a meeting that his staff went to the extreme of waking the kids and walking them to class, scheduling and making them attend tutoring sessions, etc. i.e. they did everything BUT write the papers and take the tests. you have two athletes during romar's stay that wouldnt take care of their business. outside of cheating, i dont know what else he was supposed to do for edwin and pulley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 In all fairness, Washington University is easily one of the most respected institutions of higher learning in america. It holds itself to different standards than most schools, which is understandable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 what's even more scary is that there are probably medical facilities that would hire us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 No, actually YOU "originally" started posting here with a "sophomoric, immature bias against an institution". Am I not correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 he included slu in that assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 after his pathetic display yesterday he is here today telling us how immature we are? we have to talk to steve about the meaning of the word "friend". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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