OT: Georgia Observation

[kevinfootes]

the term 'must win' means nothing right now, and if you disagree, please feel free to show me a scenario that demonstrates otherwise.

I guess I must apologize for wanting my team to win. Apparently, anything short of an NCAA tourney bid is not worth paying attention to. As I've mentioned, I still want my team to have a winning season. An 0-3 start would not have been a good way to make that happen.

I'm being realistic here. Without the 2 players we've lost this isn't a final 4 team. I've adjusted my expectations. There are many reasons why winning as many games as possible is good for the program...recruiting, attendance, etc. So, for me, tonight was a "must win". If you don't care about going 8-21 or whatever that's fine. You don't have to agree with me.

[Pistol]

I guess I must apologize for wanting my team to win. Apparently, anything short of an NCAA tourney bid is not worth paying attention to. As I've mentioned, I still want my team to have a winning season. An 0-3 start would not have been a good way to make that happen.

I'm being realistic here. Without the 2 players we've lost this isn't a final 4 team. I've adjusted my expectations. There are many reasons why winning as many games as possible is good for the program...recruiting, attendance, etc. So, for me, tonight was a "must win". If you don't care about going 8-21 or whatever that's fine. You don't have to agree with me.

I just don't agree that "must win" means anything until we're in the A10 Tournament. We're going to have 3 non-conference losses at the very least, and that isn't going to get it done from an at-large standpoint with this soft schedule.

And Nashville, how are we going to finish second in conference? We're a little short on scholarship players right now, and that has never been a good thing for any team in the second half of the season. Even if we did manage to finish #2 in the regular season or tournament, I'm not sure it would give us an at-large profile; it would probably just weaken the perception of our conference.

[kevinfootes]

I just don't agree that "must win" means anything until we're in the A10 Tournament. We're going to have 3 non-conference losses at the very least, and that isn't going to get it done from an at-large standpoint with this soft schedule.

And Nashville, how are we going to finish second in conference? We're a little short on scholarship players right now, and that has never been a good thing for any team in the second half of the season. Even if we did manage to finish #2 in the regular season or tournament, I'm not sure it would give us an at-large profile; it would probably just weaken the perception of our conference.

So you wouldn't have a problem with an 0-3 start?

I'm worried about the perception of our program as much as the perception of our conference. That's why I felt like last night was crucial in terms of setting up the rest of the non-conference schedule.

[Pistol]

So you wouldn't have a problem with an 0-3 start?

I'm worried about the perception of our program as much as the perception of our conference. That's why I felt like last night was crucial in terms of setting up the rest of the non-conference schedule.

I never said I wanted to lose or that I wouldn't have a problem with an 0-3 start. I'm saying that calling games "must-wins" at this point of this season with this team is asinine. We've had much better teams (like last year for example) that never sniffed an at-large bid and we have absolutely no chance of that happening this year. And to call any game a "must win" in any context other than the NCAA Tournament is pointless; every team is playing to get there.

I love the program and want to win badly- that's why I'm here, that's why I have season tickets, that's why I go to games on the road. But that doesn't mean I have unbridled optimism or unrealistic expectations about what we can do this season, especially after the ###### sandwich we were served before this season started.

I don't know how to make it any more clear.

[billiken_roy]

last night plain and simple was a buy game. if we lose buy games we have nothing to worry about because that would indicate that we have sunk to the near 300 rpi level.

while austin peay technically might be called a buy game as well, the ohio valley is a top 15 conference and AP is annually one of the best teams in the conference. it is still a bad loss, especially at home, but those losses can happen.

we will win our true buy games. the games to watch out for are the austin peay's, southwest missouri states, bowling greens, the games in cancun, iupui, etc. those are the season killing must win's if we blow anymore of those.

[kevinfootes]

I never said I wanted to lose or that I wouldn't have a problem with an 0-3 start. I'm saying that calling games "must-wins" at this point of this season with this team is asinine. We've had much better teams (like last year for example) that never sniffed an at-large bid and we have absolutely no chance of that happening this year. And to call any game a "must win" in any context other than the NCAA Tournament is pointless; every team is playing to get there.

I love the program and want to win badly- that's why I'm here, that's why I have season tickets, that's why I go to games on the road. But that doesn't mean I have unbridled optimism or unrealistic expectations about what we can do this season, especially after the ###### sandwich we were served before this season started.

I don't know how to make it any more clear.

Again, I have different expectations. Per your posts, you think that the only meanigful games are related to the NCAA tourney. I completely diagree. If I'm being "asinine" by saying that we needed to win a buy game against TN St. to avoid going 0-3 and do further damage to the program, I'll own that. Do you think Majerus felt like they needed to win the game? Do you think the players felt like they needed to win the game? I want to see out team have a winning season. They most likely won't go to the big dance this year, but I still want them to win as many games as possible for the reasons I've already stated (attendance, recruiting, etc.).

[kevinfootes]

Again, I have different expectations. Per your posts, you think that the only meanigful games are related to the NCAA tourney. I completely diagree. If I'm being "asinine" by saying that we needed to win a buy game against TN St. to avoid going 0-3 and do further damage to the program, I'll own that. Do you think Majerus felt like they needed to win the game? Do you think the players felt like they needed to win the game? I want to see out team have a winning season. They most likely won't go to the big dance this year, but I still want them to win as many games as possible for the reasons I've already stated (attendance, recruiting, etc.).

I'm not an attorney and don't have all of the information, so I can't really speak to the strength of either side's position. One thing we do know for sure is that a lawsuit would be bad for SLU and bad for the basketball program no matter how you look at it.

[Pistol]

Again, I have different expectations. Per your posts, you think that the only meanigful games are related to the NCAA tourney. I completely diagree. If I'm being "asinine" by saying that we needed to win a buy game against TN St. to avoid going 0-3 and do further damage to the program, I'll own that. Do you think Majerus felt like they needed to win the game? Do you think the players felt like they needed to win the game? I want to see out team have a winning season. They most likely won't go to the big dance this year, but I still want them to win as many games as possible for the reasons I've already stated (attendance, recruiting, etc.).

I acknowledged that a loss vs. Tennessee State might have been bad for the team in my second response to this thread:

"The outcomes of the rest of our non-conference games are largely irrelevant, other than the mental and emotional effects on the players."

If the players and coaches don't feel like they need to win every game, I will end my Billiken Club membership, give away the rest of my season tickets, and never spend money on the program again. I want to win every game for a variety of reasons. You fundamentally misunderstand my point in this thread.

From a practical standpoint, how could any of our games be called "must win" games, and how was this game different than any other? If we didn't win, what would that mean for our season? Anything significantly different than how are season had already been going? Would we have gone from a Tournament hopeful to a wait-till-next-year team?

By your logic, "must win" means nothing and every game is a "must win" game. IUPUI is a must win game on Saturday. Then we have a must win game out in Portland....

All games are related to the NCAA Tournament. That's why we play them. If we lose to Austin Peay to start the season, then lose to Georgia, and have a soft non-conference schedule overall, we are not going to get a bid to the NCAA Tournament unless we win our conference tournament. It's that simple.

It's frivolous to pick out any game this season as a "must win" game, when we're really just trying to win as many as we can and make the best of a bad situation. Nothing hinges on any one game at this point.

[kevinfootes]

I acknowledged that a loss vs. Tennessee State might have been bad for the team in my second response to this thread:

"The outcomes of the rest of our non-conference games are largely irrelevant, other than the mental and emotional effects on the players."

If the players and coaches don't feel like they need to win every game, I will end my Billiken Club membership, give away the rest of my season tickets, and never spend money on the program again. I want to win every game for a variety of reasons. You fundamentally misunderstand my point in this thread.

From a practical standpoint, how could any of our games be called "must win" games, and how was this game different than any other? If we didn't win, what would that mean for our season? Anything significantly different than how are season had already been going? Would we have gone from a Tournament hopeful to a wait-till-next-year team?

By your logic, "must win" means nothing and every game is a "must win" game. IUPUI is a must win game on Saturday. Then we have a must win game out in Portland....

All games are related to the NCAA Tournament. That's why we play them. If we lose to Austin Peay to start the season, then lose to Georgia, and have a soft non-conference schedule overall, we are not going to get a bid to the NCAA Tournament unless we win our conference tournament. It's that simple.

It's frivolous to pick out any game this season as a "must win" game, when we're really just trying to win as many as we can and make the best of a bad situation. Nothing hinges on any one game at this point.

As I've posted several times, there are many reasons why I felt the the game was a must win. I re-hash a few of them if you like...

we hadn't beaten a D1 opponent

Until we had actually beaten a D1 opponent, no one knew how bad this team might finish

our young players need to learn how to start finishing games

an 0-3 start is bad for the program, much worse than 1-2 IMO, for reasons like recruiting, attendance, media coverage, etc.

etc.

I've posted many times that this is most likely not a tourney team. I can still see 16-18 wins coming from them, which is a heck of a lot better than going 8-22 or something like that. However, if you started losing buy games you're in really deep trouble.

That was an important win to get IMO. I called it a "must win". You view it however you like. If you want to continue debating semantics that's fine.

You wrote :"Nothing hinges on any one game at this point" As I've posted MANY times already, I want this team to have a winning season. Starting out 0-3 makes that MUCH harder to do. If your only measure of success is an NCAA appearance, then you might be correct. Since we both know that is highly unlikely, I've changed my expectations.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Pistol, in my opinion, before the game started, because of the circumstances, the Billikens had to beat TSU, making it a "must-win" game. I don't agree with your definition of "must-win." Must-win games become such because of the circumstances leading up to the game, not because of future implications.

[kevinfootes]

Pistol, in my opinion, before the game started, because of the circumstances, the Billikens had to beat TSU, making it a "must-win" game. I don't agree with your definition of "must-win." Must-win games become such because of the circumstances leading up to the game, not because of future implications.

+1

I like the way you think.

[Pistol]

Man, you guys are ganging up on me now. Just seems to me that "must-win" is a completely arbitrary way to look at our games right now.

[NashvilleBilliken]

And Nashville, how are we going to finish second in conference?

I'd say a good start would be to win more games than 12 of the other teams. I'm not sure what else you want me to say. I'm not predicting a national championship here. I just find it a little absurd to mail the season in after losing two games. I've already said that NIT would be a nice accomplishment, so i obviously don't have some sort of unbridled optimism. I'm just a glass half full kinda guy and would prefer to have a positive outlook. Saying we can't even make the CBI is pretty depressing!