OT: Multiple upsets already this week

[STL Hoops Insider]

Robert Morris def Northwestern

http://naia.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/110708aaa.html

Carroll upsets Eastern Washington

http://naia.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/110308aac.html

In other news, Columbia College in Mo won its 600th game in program history

Freshman Taylor Evans of Belleville East had 18pts

[knight_rider]

NAIA upsets, D-II schools playing closely contested games against top teams in the country, #2 ranked D-III school playing tough against our women!!!! The D-I schools have everything to lose in these games and these are different situations compared to playing the "Converse All-Stars" as in years past! I can imagine the D-I coaches come away with volumes of teaching material compared to the 40 point blow-outs that we sometimes see.

[STL Hoops Insider]

NAIA upsets, D-II schools playing closely contested games against top teams in the country, #2 ranked D-III school playing tough against our women!!!! The D-I schools have everything to lose in these games and these are different situations compared to playing the "Converse All-Stars" as in years past! I can imagine the D-I coaches come away with volumes of teaching material compared to the 40 point blow-outs that we sometimes see.

I'm pretty sure SIUE lost to a DIII school too, I think it was either Webster or Westminster. I forget

[OC]

WashU did indeed beat UMSL as I predicted--albeit not a major upset. It was a great 2ot game.

UMSL is at least very athletic, so the Bills will be semi-tested in terms of getting to te rim and defending. SLU will again be much taller as UMSL often had 4 guys on the floor below 6'3ish. The have a Samford transfer and a former AAA outfielder among their new players.

[kevinfootes]

Robert Morris def Northwestern

http://naia.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/110708aaa.html

Carroll upsets Eastern Washington

http://naia.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/110308aac.html

In other news, Columbia College in Mo won its 600th game in program history

Freshman Taylor Evans of Belleville East had 18pts

They're PRACTICE games. You hate to lose a game like that, but it's not like you're playing for your life. Would you get surprised if the Red Sox lost a spring training game to the Nationals while playing a bunch of backups?

[OC]

They didn't weat their 'practice' uniforms.....

I'm not saying they are all big deals, but DIII Westmin over SIUE is a big deal both ways. Not a smooth transition to DI.

I, too, am glad that teams are playing local allies instead of NBC Thunder and Marathon Oil.

[STL Hoops Insider]

They're PRACTICE games. You hate to lose a game like that, but it's not like you're playing for your life. Would you get surprised if the Red Sox lost a spring training game to the Nationals while playing a bunch of backups?

Its sort of a big deal when you beat a d1 because its most kids dream to play D1 and a lot of people perceive that any D1 player could go to a DIII or NAIA program and be go-to-guy. So with every player on that team supposed to be better than everyone or their team, it is a big deal when they beat them. They DIII or NAIA team has to play its backups too. Most of these kids were told at one point that they werent good enough for D1 and when they beat a D1 school, they prove that they could compete on that level despite what Joe scout or Bob Analyst thought. When a DIII beats a D2 its a big deal because the D2 can offer full athletic scholarships where as a D3 cannot. They can offer grants and financial aid in a lot of cases, but not guarantee a full scholarship to each player where as a D2 can use this as a recruiting tool and has the ability to build the strongest team possible, so when a D3 can overcome that and beat them head-to-head its a big deal. Its a big deal because if a player doesnt go D1, even on this board, some will say he must not have been any good. Just because a player doesnt go D1, it doesnt mean they arent good enough. Anthony Mitchell, Paul Eckerle, and Daniel Lisch were fortunate to get last minute offers from SLU. Not knocking those players at all, I'd take it too, but there are better players all over the country who dont get that opportunity from their local D1 institution. When the fall signing period came Josh Harrellson only had one scholarship offer. Its more than being good there are steps that have to be taken and a lot of things have to break your way in a lot of cases to go D1, and sometimes to go D2.

[jimbofive]

Its sort of a big deal when you beat a d1 because its most kids dream to play D1 and a lot of people perceive that any D1 player could go to a DIII or NAIA program and be go-to-guy. So with every player on that team supposed to be better than everyone or their team, it is a big deal when they beat them. They DIII or NAIA team has to play its backups too. Most of these kids were told at one point that they werent good enough for D1 and when they beat a D1 school, they prove that they could compete on that level despite what Joe scout or Bob Analyst thought. When a DIII beats a D2 its a big deal because the D2 can offer full athletic scholarships where as a D3 cannot. They can offer grants and financial aid in a lot of cases, but not guarantee a full scholarship to each player where as a D2 can use this as a recruiting tool and has the ability to build the strongest team possible, so when a D3 can overcome that and beat them head-to-head its a big deal. Its a big deal because if a player doesnt go D1, even on this board, some will say he must not have been any good. Just because a player doesnt go D1, it doesnt mean they arent good enough. Anthony Mitchell, Paul Eckerle, and Daniel Lisch were fortunate to get last minute offers from SLU. Not knocking those players at all, I'd take it too, but there are better players all over the country who dont get that opportunity from their local D1 institution. When the fall signing period came Josh Harrellson only had one scholarship offer. Its more than being good there are steps that have to be taken and a lot of things have to break your way in a lot of cases to go D1, and sometimes to go D2.

Very good post.

[STL Hoops Insider]

Very good post.

Thank you. Its just the old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." I'm reminded of it every NBA draft in June. I'm sure Mario Chalmers, a McDonald's All-American and 3 year starter at Kansas, hitting the shot of the year in championship game, never thought after all of that he would get drafted in the 2nd round while George Hill from IUPUI goes late 1st round. Who thought a guy from Rider would go in lottery (Jason Thompson) and he's actually doing well averaging double figures off the bench. I'm sure Demarcus Nelson, a starter for years at Duke never thought he would go undrafted while Mike Taylor a player from the NBDL that could've been acquired by a simple call up was drafted late in the 2nd round. Nelson is Golden State's starting pg right now.

[brianstl]

Thank you. Its just the old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." I'm reminded of it every NBA draft in June. I'm sure Mario Chalmers, a McDonald's All-American and 3 year starter at Kansas, hitting the shot of the year in championship game, never thought after all of that he would get drafted in the 2nd round while George Hill from IUPUI goes late 1st round. Who thought a guy from Rider would go in lottery (Jason Thompson) and he's actually doing well averaging double figures off the bench. I'm sure Demarcus Nelson, a starter for years at Duke never thought he would go undrafted while Mike Taylor a player from the NBDL that could've been acquired by a simple call up was drafted late in the 2nd round. Nelson is Golden State's starting pg right now.

What it should really tell you is that most talent ends up being discovered. Does some of it slip through? Sure, but most of it is discovered. The number of players that end up playing in the NBA from smaller division schools is tiny. Many of the ones that do are playing non D1 basketball for reasons that have nothing to do with not being not noticed by D1 programs, but rather other reasons that kept them out of D1 programs. You keep acting like their is huge amount of this talent that never gets noticed and it is just not true.

There are 347 D1 teams. There have probably been 500 to 600 games played between them and lower level programs so far this season. We have just a handful of upsets that you have brought up. I don't see all that talent rising up, what I see mostly are flukes in games that D1 coaches use as pratice tools and that D1 players have a hard time taking seriously. The best of the progams at the lower levels have the talent to play close and rarely pull an upset.

That is not to take away from the talent level in other divisions. It is very good, but it is not close to D1 overall.

[moytoy12]

Thank you. Its just the old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." I'm reminded of it every NBA draft in June. I'm sure Mario Chalmers, a McDonald's All-American and 3 year starter at Kansas, hitting the shot of the year in championship game, never thought after all of that he would get drafted in the 2nd round while George Hill from IUPUI goes late 1st round. Who thought a guy from Rider would go in lottery (Jason Thompson) and he's actually doing well averaging double figures off the bench. I'm sure Demarcus Nelson, a starter for years at Duke never thought he would go undrafted while Mike Taylor a player from the NBDL that could've been acquired by a simple call up was drafted late in the 2nd round. Nelson is Golden State's starting pg right now.

Brian's point is dead on. There's a reason a reason D1 players play D1 and the overwhelming majority from other divisions don't. There's a reason I wasn't good enough to play soccer at SLU but could have gotten full rides to NAIA schools and a handful of DII schools.

Footes' point earlier was dead-on, these are practice games for D1 schools and the super bowl to the minnow schools.

[kevinfootes]

Its sort of a big deal when you beat a d1 because its most kids dream to play D1 and a lot of people perceive that any D1 player could go to a DIII or NAIA program and be go-to-guy. So with every player on that team supposed to be better than everyone or their team, it is a big deal when they beat them. They DIII or NAIA team has to play its backups too. Most of these kids were told at one point that they werent good enough for D1 and when they beat a D1 school, they prove that they could compete on that level despite what Joe scout or Bob Analyst thought. When a DIII beats a D2 its a big deal because the D2 can offer full athletic scholarships where as a D3 cannot. They can offer grants and financial aid in a lot of cases, but not guarantee a full scholarship to each player where as a D2 can use this as a recruiting tool and has the ability to build the strongest team possible, so when a D3 can overcome that and beat them head-to-head its a big deal. Its a big deal because if a player doesnt go D1, even on this board, some will say he must not have been any good. Just because a player doesnt go D1, it doesnt mean they arent good enough. Anthony Mitchell, Paul Eckerle, and Daniel Lisch were fortunate to get last minute offers from SLU. Not knocking those players at all, I'd take it too, but there are better players all over the country who dont get that opportunity from their local D1 institution. When the fall signing period came Josh Harrellson only had one scholarship offer. Its more than being good there are steps that have to be taken and a lot of things have to break your way in a lot of cases to go D1, and sometimes to go D2.

It's great to see good things happen to good people, but they're stll PRACTICE games. SLU played well against Memphis in a practice setting last year.

Does that mean they were anywhere near as good? Of course not.

Show me these results in games that count and I'll care.

[STL Hoops Insider]

What it should really tell you is that most talent ends up being discovered. Does some of it slip through? Sure, but most of it is discovered. The number of players that end up playing in the NBA from smaller division schools is tiny. Many of the ones that do are playing non D1 basketball for reasons that have nothing to do with not being not noticed by D1 programs, but rather other reasons that kept them out of D1 programs. You keep acting like their is huge amount of this talent that never gets noticed and it is just not true.

There are 347 D1 teams. There have probably been 500 to 600 games played between them and lower level programs so far this season. We have just a handful of upsets that you have brought up. I don't see all that talent rising up, what I see mostly are flukes in games that D1 coaches use as pratice tools and that D1 players have a hard time taking seriously. The best of the progams at the lower levels have the talent to play close and rarely pull an upset.

That is not to take away from the talent level in other divisions. It is very good, but it is not close to D1 overall.

I wouldnt say the talent is being discovered, I think its moreso players taking the steps to put themselves in a position to be dicovered. The players in the NBDL are making scraps compared to what they could be making overseas for a shot at the NBA. The gap between most D1 and D2 teams is pretty big, but there are D1 caliber players playing D2 and vice versa.

All-Stars like Ben Wallace and Brad Miller went undrafted. You can argue that at least 3 teams franchise players are 2nd round picks, Golden State, Milwaukee, and Utah, and you've also had 2nd round All-Stars like Manu Ginobili, Rashard Lewis, Mehmet Okur, and so on. I think there are many Josh Harrellson's out there. And yes there are cirucomstances that have nothing to do with basketball that keep players from going D1 and that exactly what I meant when I said a lot of things have to go right to make it to D1 and sometimes D2. It takes a lot more than talent.

[OC]

Mike Taylor was eligible for last year's draft bc he left school early and signed a professional contract (non-NBA)...which makes you automatically eligible for the next NBA draft. He had to be drafted, not eligible to be signed until after the draft process.

I think you guys are buying too much into the "practice game vs 'their super bowl' " stuff. How do we know how each team/guy approached the game emotionally?

I believe DI teams go into the game trying to win. If they don't, I'm not going to rationalize it by saying they weren't compelled to give a great effort bc of the opposition's classification. How does that work? In mid-dribble drive, does Kwamain say to himself: "wait, wait, slow down--this defender was not recruited regionally as I was, he is merely a local kid gone NAIA".

If SLU loses to the Tritons/Riverpeople, I want to see how many posters still give it the ole' "hey it was practice" brush off.

[kevinfootes]

If SLU loses to the Tritons/Riverpeople, I want to see how many posters still give it the ole' "hey it was practice" brush off.

SLU's game against UMSL is a regular season game. I, for one, would be extremely pissed off by a loss. I wouldn't like it if SLU lost an exhibition game to UMSL either, but I would also understand it a little more if guys who would only play a couple of minutes during a regular season game were playing 15 minutes while the starters were on the bench.

[moytoy12]

I think you guys are buying too much into the "practice game vs 'their super bowl' " stuff. How do we know how each team/guy approached the game emotionally?

Really? Seriously? Who among us that got passed over for something we thought we were qualified for didn't have increased motivation to prove that person/entity wrong when it came to a face-to-face "showdown"?

Give me a break. The DII/DIII/NAIA kids want to prove those DI SOBs wrong during those games.

vtime, you keep talking about the fringe. There are always exceptions to the rule. I would bet there are substantially more big names/first rounders that are ruling the NBA roost than unknown 2nd rounders/free agents.

[OC]

Really? Seriously? Who among us that got passed over for something we thought we were qualified for didn't have increased motivation to prove that person/entity wrong when it came to a face-to-face "showdown"?

No, I agree on the extra motivation from the underdog, just not on the 'lesser effort' from the DI. If a coach is drastically changing his rotation/minutes like Footes said, then sure...but it doesnt seem that way at most of the exhibitions until the game is out of hand.

I realize the extra motivation thing is human nature, and not a myth...but if a kid is 'turning it up a notch' for selective foes, that may help explain why he and his on/off switch didn't go DI.

This reminds of when Bobby Knight was asked about whether a kid had his 'gameface' on before the game, and the ever-eloquent Knight basically said--in his own style-- that there wasn't such a thing.

[Taj79]

You think a kid talked about in another thread, a former D-1 player at an A10 school, wasn't licking his chops when the state's king of hoops came calling in northern Kentucky last week? Its the same motivation that makes us want to play Missouri or Illinois. Its the same reason a team like Iowa goes out and beats Penn State on a game-ending field goal. Its THEIR Super Bowl. But again, one game does not a season make. Kids getting "discovered" doens't mena much to me for a one-and-done scenario. Its what that kid can do over the long haul. I am certain that for the most part, each one of those Harris Stowe kids took their exhibiton game against us quite personally. I would. Its the same thought pattern than makes fathers like Kevin Slaton go off on a dime about their son. Same reason big brother comes on here to defend little brother. Me against the world. I also agree that it is better than Marathon Oil or Athletes in Action. And upsets will occur --- ask the New England Patriots.

All these teams in all these sports in all these seasons now seem to be doing all the same thing ---- trying to get it right and peak in the month that its most crucial. The Phillies got hot in September and carried it through October. College basektball teams want to be peaking in March --- some will even discount the whole season if it means winning three or four at your conference tournament and getting into the "dance." Everyone who knows hockey knows what a "hot goaltender" means come May and June. The NBA shadow boxes for like seven months just for seeding positions for the real run, when the "games really matter." College basketball is now doing the same thing. Work out the early season bugs, if that doesn't work, get it right by the time January and the conference rolls around. Even if you don't get it then, get it by the time conference tournament rolls around and get the automatic bid. Catch fire in March. Become the next Jimmy V and NC State. See "Hoosiers" come true. Coppin state was like 12 adn 16 last year and still made the NCAA Play-In game because of a last second shot in the tournament against Morgan State.

Let's say some kid at Harris Stowe doesn't miss a shot and they end up beating us. Let's same NKU beats that other Kentucky school because of 33 points by some former D1 kid. So what? After about 24 hours, the notoriety is gone. The euphoria is replaced by the what-have-you-done-for-me-today crowd. Yippee! I think talent will plateau. The seperation between folks at certain levels is minor. I think at that point, the head and the heart take over. You want it, you work it and you develop it. Motivation. I think for every NBA game, they ought to take what every player gets per game and throw it in the hat. Winner takes all. Loser gets expenses, that's it. Visiting teams would have loved seeing the Knicks coming to town every night last year. Beat 'em up and take their lunch money, their bling money, their girlfriend-and-wives money. Everything. That would be motivation.

[STL Hoops Insider]

You think a kid talked about in another thread, a former D-1 player at an A10 school, wasn't licking his chops when the state's king of hoops came calling in northern Kentucky last week? Its the same motivation that makes us want to play Missouri or Illinois. Its the same reason a team like Iowa goes out and beats Penn State on a game-ending field goal. Its THEIR Super Bowl. But again, one game does not a season make. Kids getting "discovered" doens't mena much to me for a one-and-done scenario. Its what that kid can do over the long haul. I am certain that for the most part, each one of those Harris Stowe kids took their exhibiton game against us quite personally. I would. Its the same thought pattern than makes fathers like Kevin Slaton go off on a dime about their son. Same reason big brother comes on here to defend little brother. Me against the world. I also agree that it is better than Marathon Oil or Athletes in Action. And upsets will occur --- ask the New England Patriots.

All these teams in all these sports in all these seasons now seem to be doing all the same thing ---- trying to get it right and peak in the month that its most crucial. The Phillies got hot in September and carried it through October. College basektball teams want to be peaking in March --- some will even discount the whole season if it means winning three or four at your conference tournament and getting into the "dance." Everyone who knows hockey knows what a "hot goaltender" means come May and June. The NBA shadow boxes for like seven months just for seeding positions for the real run, when the "games really matter." College basketball is now doing the same thing. Work out the early season bugs, if that doesn't work, get it right by the time January and the conference rolls around. Even if you don't get it then, get it by the time conference tournament rolls around and get the automatic bid. Catch fire in March. Become the next Jimmy V and NC State. See "Hoosiers" come true. Coppin state was like 12 adn 16 last year and still made the NCAA Play-In game because of a last second shot in the tournament against Morgan State.

Let's say some kid at Harris Stowe doesn't miss a shot and they end up beating us. Let's same NKU beats that other Kentucky school because of 33 points by some former D1 kid. So what? After about 24 hours, the notoriety is gone. The euphoria is replaced by the what-have-you-done-for-me-today crowd. Yippee! I think talent will plateau. The seperation between folks at certain levels is minor. I think at that point, the head and the heart take over. You want it, you work it and you develop it. Motivation. I think for every NBA game, they ought to take what every player gets per game and throw it in the hat. Winner takes all. Loser gets expenses, that's it. Visiting teams would have loved seeing the Knicks coming to town every night last year. Beat 'em up and take their lunch money, their bling money, their girlfriend-and-wives money. Everything. That would be motivation.

Very good post. I agree the smaller school school definitely has extra motivation and something to prove for several reasons. For a lot of them this might be their only article in the paper or TV appearance etc. Its their only shut at some real publicity. An upset or even a close game can be used as a recruiting tool. I think there coach still thinks that their conference tournament is more important though, so its not their super bowl, but their is extra motivation. I also dont think the D1 team should be letting up at all, especially not any freshman trying to earn their spot. If they are letting up that could really be a problem down the road. I just like these kinds of upsets because the smaller school is already over matched in size (height and weight) and athleticism and in addition to that the bigger school often times tells you what kind of offense and defense to play because they want to get different looks for their players. Every D1 player because of that status is probably supposed to be able to go down to the smaller level and be the go-to-guy on most teams, so when the smaller level team beats the bigger team with every player on their team supposedly better than every player their own team, its kind of a big deal. Upsets are what make the game truly great. If there were never upsets, you could just skip to the playoffs in most sports.