RPI

[Clock_Tower]

While good intentioned, the RPI as currently calculated may be the worst thing to happen to college basketball in recent years. Checked Ken Pom's RPI and see that SIUC has an RPI of 9? Missouri State is 19? Two good teams but not great teams. What a joke. Each team now has 4 losses but guess losses to other "great" Valley teams will have little impact from here on out. In only a month, Doug Elgin will be all over the news, our local media bows at his feet lobbing softball questions at him and we will be hearing about the RPI and how wonderful the Valley. Already getting sick.

Cannot understand why other conferences, including our own, cannot realize how to schedule and otherwise act as a league. Have absolutely no regrets about not joining the Valley (believe they have peaked) but am quite disappointed with Linda Bruno and the A10. Just watched Mizzou and Kansas, believe it or not, on national TV - ESPN. Maybe some day the Big 12 will be led by Bruno and sign a "lucrative" TV conference so that their fans can follow their team over their laptops on pay per view. As Cowboy likes to say, Linda "It's hard being a Billiken fan."

Oh, got to go in that Gonzaga (the program our Board expects SLU to be if only we could get a good coach) is now on ESPN!! Anyone else notice that MO State, SIUC, Mizzou and Illinois were all on TV over the weekend? My wife, a very casual fan, asks me, "Why isn't SLU ever on TV?" To which I reply, who needs TV when we have AM 590 radio. TV is but a fad. Radio is forever.

Ms. Bruno, what time do I tune my best home radio so that I can follow the SLU v. Temple game on Wednesday?

[Billikenexpress]

And the Valley is rated #4 in the nation...right behind the Pac10, SEC, and ACC. And you have "no regrets" about joing the MVC? Losers are made not born.

[rchif0]

All it takes is scheduling good away games. That doesn't seem to be much of a problem since the "big boys" are too arrogant to leave their home court. Just schedule them and beat them. When you play Mizzou's non-con opponents and stay home, you're going to have a bad RPI. Common sense.

[courtside]

I think everyone would agree that the goal is making the NCAA tourney. A lot of people have run wild with the term RPI. It has become a big buzz word. It isn't the only determining factor in making the NCAA's...Mo St had a great one last year, no invite. Cincinnati had a better one than their conference bretheren Seton Hall and they din't get an invite yet SH did. ...RPI is just but one factor that gets you in the NCAA's.

And the MVC which has been covered so much here...since you wanted "short term" facts...

Only twice since the year 2000 has the MVC had more teams than what makes up the current group of A-10 teams in the NCAA. The MVC has received 3 teams once, 4 teams once...and the rest with 2 at most.(so that is 2 years out of 7) One of its top coaches left for the bigger school in state, just as Weber did in his state too. Turgeon loves KU and isn't going to get that job anytime soon, ...Nebraska is a football school or I wonder if Altman would have left a long time ago? How long do you really think Lowery will be at SIU?

This is a long term decision based on many things.

[courtside]

>All it takes is scheduling good away games. That doesn't

>seem to be much of a problem since the "big boys" are too

>arrogant to leave their home court. Just schedule them and

>beat them. When you play Mizzou's non-con opponents and

>stay home, you're going to have a bad RPI. Common sense.

Mizzou just needs to win a few conference games...had they held on to their late lead at KU even that would have changed their 80ish RPI dramatically. They are 0-4 in conference with 3 of those close losses. They played 4 top 100 RPI teams in non-conference, and their strength of schedule is 40. All they needed to do was win a game or two in conference, or start winning a few. Their schedule is not hindering them, not winning close games has...win a couple of those games, and they would actually be in pretty good shape.

Syracuse has a 39 RPI with exactly one road game before January and that was at Canisius. Big boys often gain a lot of RPI ground in conference.

[rchif0]

Amusingly enough, that top coach leaving for the bigger school managed to lose to 3 MVC teams, one of them being the last place team.

As it were, the MVC of last year and this year is quite a bit better than the MVC of yesteryear, just as the A-10 of yesteryear was apparently a bit more well thought of than the current.

[Basketbill]

amusing how that team beat mizzou.

[courtside]

>Amusingly enough, that top coach leaving for the bigger

>school managed to lose to 3 MVC teams, one of them being the

>last place team.

>

>As it were, the MVC of last year and this year is quite a

>bit better than the MVC of yesteryear, just as the A-10 of

>yesteryear was apparently a bit more well thought of than

>the current.

I think we have a disconnect. You are going to base all of your opinions on one season. Perhaps not so wise. If the season ended today the big bad MVC(no knock to them) would get 3 teams in the NCAA's. There is a decent chance the A10 would get 2. The MVC has gotten 4 teams once in this time. As for the coaches, the point was they leave...and that means lots of turnover and increased risk to win.

[rchif0]

A big issue with the MVC and A-10 is that, as stated a thread on here before, a lot of coaches view it as a stepping stone to the big paying jobs. The MVC is working to change that, such as Mark Turgeon getting $750,000 a year, as well as Dana Altman. I don't know about the A-10's efforts in that regard. And I was basing it on last year and this year, so far, with the record against BCS teams by the MVC being pretty good.

[TheRaginCajun]

Curious as to who the two teams from the A-10 would be? Minus the automatic bid from the conference tournament who in our conference gets into the NCAA tournament?

[rchif0]

>Curious as to who the two teams from the A-10 would be?

>Minus the automatic bid from the conference tournament who

>in our conference gets into the NCAA tournament?

Good question. Joe Lunardi's Bracketology Scroll put out today disses the A-10 quite often.

[CAG]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how the RPI works and how to create a schedule that will benefit you come tournament time. The MVC has done it for 3 years now. Soderberg talked about this countless times in the offseason about how much they worked on our '06-'07 schedule.

However, you have to give the MVC credit for winning the majority of their games. We had our schedule set up as best we could this year but then lost to 2 bottom feeders. In the A10 our brethren don't schedule like this and most of the teams lose to way too many inferior teams.

CAG

[TheRaginCajun]

I would say Dayton and Xavier would be the two teams closest to being able to stake a claim in the tournament. In the MVC it looks like the upper half of the conference would at least have a case at this point. I was looking at rpi's and it looks like there are 6 teams from the MVC with a rpi of 55 or below, there are 2 from the A-10. The MVC has figured it out and has essentially made a joke of the rpi. Something I found interesting, the #1 ranked team in the country, the Florida Gators, have an rpi of 30.

[TheRaginCajun]

I think we have kind of been hurt by a couple of the teams we saw as contending for league championships and being quality teams kind of falling thru. Houston is not a good team, sits at 6-8 with a rpi of 108. This may be do in part to the season ending injury of an all-conference caliber player and playing without a big transfer for the 1st half of the season. Pacific is a pitiful 4-11 with an rpi over 200. Loyola-Chicago is 9-7 with an rpi over 100 as well. Loyola and Houston were two teams expected to have nice seasons and potentially tournament teams. Pacific lost a lot, but people still thought they would be a quality team. The win against Missouri State looks nice with them having an rpi right around 20. Ole Miss has an rpi right around 100. We have not been helped out much by our non-conference opponents.

[courtside]

>A big issue with the MVC and A-10 is that, as stated a

>thread on here before, a lot of coaches view it as a

>stepping stone to the big paying jobs. The MVC is working

>to change that, such as Mark Turgeon getting $750,000 a

>year, as well as Dana Altman. I don't know about the A-10's

>efforts in that regard. And I was basing it on last year

>and this year, so far, with the record against BCS teams by

>the MVC being pretty good.

Let's call it a mix in both leagues...Temple, Charlotte, St. Joe's don't job hop etc...let's for sake of argument say both leagues have job hoppers to advance themselves...and some who stay...not sure I think even that is equal but I will leave it for now...

Next...you were basing your entire premise of MVC being better than A10 on two years, one being current year...WOW...seriously...are you kidding?

And last...isn't the goal everyone has on the board for SLU to get into NCAA's...isn't that what people want to see? In the best year in the history of the MVC...NCAA said MO St and your 20 something RPI...thanks but no thanks...and it is very posible that number of 4 teams won't be as many this year.

Wouldn't this at the very least devalue the whole RPI talk as the only or biggest deciding factor anymore?

But I will answer that in the other post.

[courtside]

>>Curious as to who the two teams from the A-10 would be?

>>Minus the automatic bid from the conference tournament who

>>in our conference gets into the NCAA tournament?

>Good question. Joe Lunardi's Bracketology Scroll put out

>today disses the A-10 quite often.

Ahhh good ole Joe Lunardi...ok I will play along with your Joe Lunardi game. Is this the same Joe Lunardi who currently has 70 RPI UMASS...same team with exactly ONE quality non-conference win..in his current bracketology in the NCAA's??? He updated his this morning. Hmm where is Xavier, Dayton...and those 40 something RPI teams??? Hmmm...could the RPI not mean very much to him...and others. Believe me I am no big fan of Joe Lunardi and he is your example not mine. Just so we agree you mentioned him. The same Joe Lunardi who had Xavier in last week until they lost at SLU???...so if Xavier just wins a road game or two and piles up some confernence wins...I am imagine it would be safe to say Joe would have them back. And this doesn't even discuss Dayton or SLU.

So, for the record, I am not saying RPI is not important. But I am saying it is not this be all end all, and certainly not the most important factor in getting into NCAA's.

I said in my other post "decent chance" A10 gets 2. Conference tourney winner...and posibly reg season winner if it isn't same team...and gasp...it might actually not be reg season winner and might be somebody else...then people can really complain.

Overall the beginning of this was about RPI...and MVC vs A10.

Maybe because the MVC is based in STL?? Maybe because last year they had a record number of teams, which is still 4? Maybe because of the national dust up with Packer and Nantz? etc...

I am not denying that the MVC is a good league. ...and you used Lunardi as your example as a reputable person.

Lunardi even had St. Joe's in his brackets recently. wow. You mean those East Coast big city schools, and other bigger named hoops schools like Xavier are getting more buzz than the MVC teams...even after all of the local MVC attention....shocking.

[TheRaginCajun]

I think one is obviously going to look at trends in a situation where comparing conferences. The MVC took care of business last year with 4 teams getting into the tournament and Bradley making a magical run and have certainly taken care of business this season and could match the number of teams that got in last year. They appear to be able to compete very favorably with teams from the power conferences and that is evident from top to bottom in their league and thru recent tournament success. The A-10 on the other hand is trending down, coming off a season where two teams made the tournament (would have been one had Xavier not won the conference tournament) and looks like a one bid conference this year. The A-10 has not shown the ability to truly compete with and beat teams from power conferences from top to bottom. I like the top half of the conference with teams like Xavier, Dayton, St. Joseph's, Charlotte, UMass, and George Washington, but the bottom feeders are going to kill us year in and year out. I mean it is easy to look at the A-10 at one of its lower points and the MVC at an all time high and say SLU made a mistake, but is that truly reasonable. I personally would love it if we could get the A-10 to a 10 team league and I think that would be a competitive league.

[courtside]

>I think one is obviously going to look at trends in a

>situation where comparing conferences. The MVC took care of

>business last year with 4 teams getting into the tournament

>and Bradley making a magical run and have certainly taken

>care of business this season and could match the number of

>teams that got in last year. They appear to be able to

>compete very favorably with teams from the power conferences

>and that is evident from top to bottom in their league and

>thru recent tournament success. The A-10 on the other hand

>is trending down, coming off a season where two teams made

>the tournament (would have been one had Xavier not won the

>conference tournament) and looks like a one bid conference

>this year. The A-10 has not shown the ability to truly

>compete with and beat teams from power conferences from top

>to bottom. I like the top half of the conference with teams

>like Xavier, Dayton, St. Joseph's, Charlotte, UMass, and

>George Washington, but the bottom feeders are going to kill

>us year in and year out. I mean it is easy to look at the

>A-10 at one of its lower points and the MVC at an all time

>high and say SLU made a mistake, but is that truly

>reasonable. I personally would love it if we could get the

>A-10 to a 10 team league and I think that would be a

>competitive league.

It's a tough crowd based on two seasons. WOW.

And...right now..SEVEN MVC teams have an RPI of 62 or better. Just how many teams do you think the MVC will get this year? Surely if they have this great RPI...then they will certainly surpass last year's record four right??? If this is the best times for the MVC...they should get at least 5 right? We'll see what happens. It's all about RPI right?

At the end of the day this is about making the NCAA's...that is why people watch games, play games, go on message boards.

So the A10 teams that got in in the past 5 years couldn't compete with big conferences? I am lost. Where was the 1 seeded MVC team, like St. Joe's a few years ago. Surely with that monster RPI this year...SIU should get that 1-3 seed right?

If this is the best times for the MVC...then I should expect great seeds, more teams than ever getting in...etc..

and this is two years of basketball. It is as if all of the poster's in this thread can predict the long term future and have forgotten the short term past. I forgot only last year counts. Oh...and I forgot...can't really count two teams getting in for A10 under your rules. I thought it was pretty clear when you enter a season..you have two ways to get into NCAA's...your conference tourney, and how you do in regular season.

Amazing also how these teams who win their conference tourney's often times get better seeds than the teams who win the regular season of their conference. But that doesn't count in your rules.

Only a few short years ago the MVC was ONLY getting their conference tourney winner. Should we just cancel all conference tournaments? You may not like conference tournaments but it is part of the deal, and every team knows going in and has equal chance.

[TheRaginCajun]

If you read my full post before spitting out this venom you would have noticed the point of my post was to say that I can see why some people are up in arms about us joining the A-10 over the MVC, but that may be a little unreasonable of an opinion since you are taking the MVC at its highest point and the A-10 at one of its lowest. I think if you watched a lot of college basketball you would realize that the Valley is definitely making itself known and the A-10 is not even on the map at this point. I think you could see the voters and perceptions changing as Wichita State climbed the rankings earlier in the season and as Valley team after team beat big conference opponents. It does not look like any of the Valley teams have truly taken care of business though and I don't see any one team from that conference getting a real nice seed. However, the MVC is far ahead of the A-10 at this point and that cannot be debated. I think looking at the past and in the long-run the top half of the A-10 is better than the top half of the Valley.

[courtside]

>If you read my full post before spitting out this venom you

>would have noticed the point of my post was to say that I

>can see why some people are up in arms about us joining the

>A-10 over the MVC, but that may be a little unreasonable of

>an opinion since you are taking the MVC at its highest point

>and the A-10 at one of its lowest. I think if you watched a

>lot of college basketball you would realize that the Valley

>is definitely making itself known and the A-10 is not even

>on the map at this point. I think you could see the voters

>and perceptions changing as Wichita State climbed the

>rankings earlier in the season and as Valley team after team

>beat big conference opponents. It does not look like any of

>the Valley teams have truly taken care of business though

>and I don't see any one team from that conference getting a

>real nice seed. However, the MVC is far ahead of the A-10

>at this point and that cannot be debated. I think looking

>at the past and in the long-run the top half of the A-10 is

>better than the top half of the Valley.

I merely calmly, rationally, matter of factly, pointed out about RPI and MVC vs A10. I don't think it is fair to say the MVC is far ahead of the A10...first, based on what 2 seasons...how would it be fair to say that based on two seasons? 2nd, far ahead means many more NCAA bids...again, that is why they play. Last year was 4 to 2, in the MVC's best season ever. Let's see how many bids each conference gets this year, and just how far ahead the Valey is for two whopping years. See...I would say the Big East is far ahead...but not the Valley.

And I disagree with the notion that there is this lovefest nationally with the Valley. Maybe in its region. If season ended today, Wichita St would be watching on tv despite their early season sucess. If they weren't in the Valley, they would get more respect. If the Valley gets all of this respect...no reason SIU shouldn't get a great seed, no reason.

So...to recap...what I am saying is,

1) RPI is not the biggest reason for people getting in to NCAA's...people love the buzz of term RPI, and I am not saying it has zero importance...but people seem to calculate RPI...and discuss nothing else. That would be foolish.

2) You cannot predict the future nor change the past. Five times out of last 7 years MVC not have more teams in NCAA's. This is a trend in my book...short term trend one could argue. ...no different than your 1-2 year trend. With this trend I would also add the A10 get more respect than the MVC. Even when it stinks. How can you sit here and say...well x years from now the MVC will be better...looks that way...

If the MVC were way ahead, there would be more seperation in NCAA invites. A 20 something RPI Valley team would dance. If SIU continues its great RPI and perhaps wins its league...they will get a monster seed.

I do not think the MVC has long term respect as being a better conference than A10. It will take many many years of MVC getting several teams in NCAA's...and many many years of A10 struggling...not a couple.

If therefore there isn't a lot of current seperation between A10 and MVC in terms of NCAA invites(those are the facts), and recent past would indicate even more in A10 favor, not to mention distant past/tradition...something not even mentioned yet...all things considered I just don't see the advantages of MVC over the A10...What am I missing? ..considering all the other reasons SLU joined the A10 which don't involve athletics.

If you really look closely at it....I think it is very intersting.

[TheRaginCajun]

I think that based on what Wichita State was doing early in the season and with MO State beating Wisconsin people were definitely taking notice and giving these teams their due. However, since that early success Wichita State had a rough stretch and I don't think any single team has put themself in a position to merit a top 25 ranking. Had Wichita State kept it up and Creighton been the team many expected I would have not been surprised to see one of them get a 5 seed or lower, I think people were ready to give them their credit. The early success showed that these teams were no fluke, but I don't think any team has really kept up that pace. Once again you did not read my post, I was basing it solely on the past two seasons and I said that this is unreasonable. I think that this year the MVC will probably get 4 again and the A-10 likely 1. Also, the A-10 was a one bid conference last season had Xavier not won the conference tournament and the MVC got 4. That is a bit of a gap in my opinion and it will be the same this year because no A-10 will likely warrant an at-large selection.

[courtside]

With all of that said...you ended with i think they will get 4. If this is the best ever for the MVC...that means the league will never get more than 4. Ever. I don't care if they have number 1 conference RPI. I think the MVC would get 3-4 this year. I do believe there will be some disppointed MVC fans come selection Sunday for a few of their teams.

I am stating that two season is a blip on the radar. And in those two seasons...the seperation isn't a lot. It really isn't.

We'll see how many teams each gets.

So, would you rather see SLU in the A10 or MVC?

[TheRaginCajun]

When you look at the Valley today you could make a reasonable case for about 7 of those teams. I think a reasonable case could be made for 2 teams in the A-10, Xavier and Dayton. There is no chance if the tournament were today that those 7 teams from the Valley who have a solid resume would be in the tournament. I think 4 is likely for them. However, I think all 7 of those teams have a beter resume than Xavier and Dayton.

I personally would not want to be in the Valley. I think we were basically stuck between a rock and a hard place. I personally think that the A-10 has a fairly nice past and I think will be a better conference in the long-run. It is just rough that we join the A-10 at such a low point and when the MVC reaches its all time high.

[cpacmel]

I think 'courtside' may have a small case of denial. It's nothing personal. I am a Mo Valley guy. My team is Illinois State. We (the Redbirds) stink.

But I know quite a bit about all things college basketball.

It maybe just a blip on the radar for a few years, but for the last 1.5 years the Mo Valley has been listed among the MAJORS in college basketball.

Will it continue? Who knows. Coaches are in place as are facilites.

I have nothing against the A-10. It is no where near as strong as the MVC. I think any knowledgeable basketball fan would say as much.

And Lunardi's picks are usually right on. He doesn't give in because it's a BCS team vs. a mid-major. He goes with whom he thinks is most deserving. (according to how the committee would look at it.)

[MOStateFan]

I'm not going to argue which league is better, because its not just about basketball. I think the Valley has defintely been better than the A10 in recent years, but arguing over which will be better in 5-10 years is impossible. One factor in the Valley's favor, however, is in the Commissioner's office. More than the coaches who leave, I am most worried that Elgin will leave the Valley.