courtside

Just a matter of time before U of L goes on the slide. Why? Slick Rick's lack of inside game as usual. Big quick guards that neutralize the three, and teams that switch on d. U of L is a good club, gutless coach, but good coach, ....they can win a few in NCAA if they play an up and down running style team. Atheltic bigs...will kill them,...say round 2 or in sweet 16. Live and die by the three and Garcia.

No sale here Law. Sure I noticed he didn't start or play a lot last night.(maybe because of an ankle) And yes he had to play out of position without Diener in there at times. But Chapman handled the ball(or tried to). Seriously, as a Marquette fan, you are pleased with Mason's year. The play I was thinking of when posting, was when he wasn't injured or without Diener earlier this year. He does a poor job protecting the ball, and cannot finish his takes to the hoop with any consistency. I some flashes with him, that DePaul game comes to mind and a few others...but his court awareness is poor at best. He gets tunnel vision, ...holds the ball way too long and bogs down the offense all too often. And though has nice takes to basket...does not finish with any consistency. Flashes of nice play, but I would say his soph season overall has been disapointing based on expectations, without any hesitation. Doesn't protect the ball well, nor handle it well, not passing the ball well, or seeing the court well, nor shoot it well.....decent in all areas...... and holds the ball too often trying to force a one on one. .....and not a fan of his defense. He is athletic, with a lot of flash, but fundamentally not quite there in a lot of areas. Tries to do too much. Always tough for a frosh pt guard to come in and handle the duties, regardless of accolades....for them next season. Mason needs a jumper to keep the defense honest, and needs to finish better in the lane, drawing fouls, etc...under control. imo

Roy, ...not sure but what I have heard is that Mason thinks is better than he is...He doesn't look physically any more mature this year. He is extremely athletic, but is inconsistent ball handler and shooter. He could have been a difference maker for them this year, and let them down. Likes to hold the ball too long, go one on one and finish wildly at the basket. The biggest thing I see watching him...doesn't have court awareness at all. Actually think he was better last year. Maybe the bench will be a wake up call. It goes to show you...he was top 40 recruit highly thought of on Pruitt's Aurora Chicago team...that is struggling a bit. But he has two more years to put up some better results. In watching that game...you have to wonder...the Marquette kids played hard without Diener in STL...but with Diener in there...it is as if they all stand around and watch him in key situations of the game...Novak, Chapman, etc...nobody wanted to take charge...and Diener though having a double double...wasn't full strength.

...and for what it is worth...Ed Hightower imo is a solid ref....when many others aren't. But he gets a free pass in the STL area imo. I do not think he is anywhere near as good as his reputation. just my opinion.

I actually watched the game...and rarely do I like to mention officiating...but wow...that was pretty one-sided. Kept waiting for the makeup calls. The grabbing and holding and bumping on one end...and ghetto hand check nation. On the other end, the whistle blew when UL players fell on their own. Strange actually. As terrible as the officiating was, going the last 5:36 with ZERO points and losing on a 25 footer with 2 ticks left....(everybody in the gym knew Garcia would pull up for three...how did he get an open look?).....has to hurt. Diener looked like you could wheel him down the court in a barrell...didn't look healthy with that stress fracture at all. But they don't have anyone else to control the game. Gutty effort, but he shouldn't have had to be out there. How bad has Dameon Mason regressed? Big win for Slick Rick.

I have seen the kid from Rockhurts play, and will fit in fine. Not sure how much he can accomplish first year however. But a solid recruit. Curious about the transfers....hoping a change of scenery and a year of college acclamation will help them. They weren't immediate impact college players.(Most aren't) SLU's chemistry couldn't get any worse than last year. As for Johnny...I would agree...but I would hold out that Tim Ward has the most potential in that group, and best pick.

Carson's......?

I think everybody is well aware that he came in, a good coach, and won with Grawer's kids....then had some success with his own kids, and after Hughes, fell mightily. He was what STL likes....a good ol boy. I am not for or against that. It would be nice to get away from that sort of STL mentality. No I am not for celebrity...taking away anything from the program like Spoon did, and eventually didn't get it done.

This season is basically a wash. It is over. In order for Coach to be successful next year and future years building a top 25 program, or close to it....he needs to embrace a few more aspects of the job. It is fact that he is very down right now, and this season, looking for positives. That is based on personal time spent with him. He does miss WI, but sure he is happy in STL. He likes it in STL. It didn't mean he wasn't going anywhwere else. Brad is passionate and totally focused on coaching the team, yes. But there are other parts of the job, besides just coaching the team. No, those aren't celebrity mixing. But he is central figure in marketing the program and a lot of off the court things, whether he likes it or not. And I know he doesn't. As long as he gets a little less stubborn and embraces a few more of those things, that will only help him in the future. Will he? Time will tell. Hope so. He is committed to the program and winning. There is a lot more to the job than just practice, games, and coaching the team. He isn't interested in some of those varying things. The team will be in a less competitive conference, with a few good recruits next season. All positives. SLU is not that high pressure of a job, at least compared to some other C-USA schools. So that helps too. As for the above, my expectations were NIT last season, and they were met. This season were NIT too, and were not met. I think it is safe to say he has two more seasons to make the NCAA. But as I said before, up until now, there hasn't been very much Athletic Dept and Administration support for the program.

Okay... A lot of talk on Brad these days....and here is my take... First and foremeost, he is extremely likeable, and regardless of what happens to him, I wish him nothing but the best. The positives: He likes STL. He knows the game. He works well with kids. He can teach the game. He isn't a used car salesman, or a coach who hangs with boosters rubbing elbows. He has the drive, and desire to succeed, and can do it the right way, a classy way. He has quietly done some very kind off court things for people this year that many don't know about. I believe he "can" recruit, and has the ability to close kids.(it won't be easy, but he needs to do it two three years in a row to make a run) There are many other positives..... Concerns: In no particular order. I am not sure if Brad understands...well I think he understands...let me say I am uncertain if he is willing to embrace big time ball. There is more to coaching major D I than knowing the game and working well with kids, etc...it is a business. I am uncertain if he is willing to absorb that part of it, at least so far. Unlike the above mentioned, Brad's personality is a guy who would be happy being a high school hoops coach, or small college coach, in rural Wisconsin somewhere, having great success surrounded my friends and family. Not that he can't make it at this level, and make SLU a regular top 25 team or near it. I know he doesn't like the marketing stuff, or worrying about if students go to games....etc...just the team and winning. Some of those things are part of the job too. I do not believe for example, that he is "over" not getting the Madison job full time. It was his dream job. It's been a while to still not be over that....but he still seems to me, to be "visiting" for lack of a better term, than entrenched in Stl. For this year, he doesn't know how to accept a losing team, hasn't had to before, ever. He is lost right now, no doubt about it, and this season is pretty much done....tough to get the kids up for a game now. All he needs is a little success, and back to back classes of better players, to get it going. But recruiting is a big time business. A lot of bs stuff that I don't think he embraces. I just hope that he isn't too stubborn or set in his ways to embrace all aspects of the job. He's digging for a reason to be positive, and imo still searching.

I do not mean this in a mean way.....but RARELY do womens hoops coaches get fired anywhere near the same as men, because it isn't a revenue sport. Many big time womens programs don't even charge to get in the game...and I am talking about top 10 programs. Nobody cares....again not trying to be mean..... To defend 10 straight losing seasons....re-defines the word "patient," don't you think? I'll have what's in your kool-aid.

nice article....I wish the early 90's days were back...McBride McKeon etc...all on the same team..... They will be fine though.

There is nothing wrong with winning a game in the 50's...as long as you are also capapble of doing it in the 60's 70's 80's etc...then you have yourself a good team.

I would disagree with the Marquette transition baskets, ...for this year's Marquette team. I would say they are struggling to get those easy transition baskets this year, that they have gotten in other years. Also, I would take issue with the offensive boards comment. Marcus Jackson is a good rebounder, but if you look at recent Marquette games or stats, they are being challenged on the boards. Sure against teams more athletic than SLU...but SLU was never close to offensive boards and after every shot it seemed 3-4 Marquette players would battle only each other for the board. I guess that means against the more athletic conference opponents that will only get worse. SLU needed to do more to create opportunities for Bryant. Sure he needs to be more active and take more initiative too. I thought he was guarded a little too easily. Marquette didn't do anything special, rotating Townsend, Mason and Chapman on him. With limited options, he needs to be more involved.

C'mon Roy, Scheduling a game at Carbondale might actually interfere witha game vs V & P Arts!

January 28, 2005, 11:49 PM CST CARBONDALE, Ill. -- Joe Ballard got the shot he wanted with No. 4 Westinghouse's 14-game winning streak on the line Friday night at a sold-out Carbondale High School gym. He'll remember it forever. The senior guard made some space about a step and a half beyond the top of the key on the Warriors' final possession but missed the potential game-tying three-pointer with two seconds left and watched the Terriers celebrate a 72-69 victory that had Westinghouse coach Quitman Dillard pledging revenge. Dillard said his team would prove it is the better squad when it counted—in March. "If we do what we need to do, we'll see them again in March," Dillard said. "Because as the brackets have it, that's who we'll be playing. And it'll be a different story in March." "I had a great look at the basket," Ballard said. "It just didn't fall for me. It was one of those shots that I was either going to hit or miss it, and I've got to live with it." Westinghouse (18-3) trailed the entire fourth quarter but got within one after 6-foot-8-inch senior DeAndre Thomas scored on a putback with :25 left. Carbondale's Steven Haynes was fouled with :17.5 to play and sank both free throws to give the Terriers (17-2), ranked seventh in the state by the Associated Press, the final margin. Thomas scored 18 points and grabbed 10 rebounds to help Westinghouse rally from a 19-8 deficit in the second quarter. The Warriors forced 17 turnovers, scoring three baskets in the final 1:14 of the half to earn a 33-32 lead at the break. Carbondale went up to stay on Phillip Fayne's basket in transition with 5:51 to go in the third.

This is one example of Nate referencing Vashon's streak, leading with it even in the title. Kevin Boone and Cameron Holloway both also wrote full length articles focused on the streak and their USA Today ranking. All I ask, ...is if you are going to reference the streak for the example, please also give a little more disclosure than that, and it would be fine. None of the above has done that. Even if Lasch didn't reference it every time, fine, ... but at the very least wrote another piece about those two things above, fine. If you are going to keep referencing the streak and ranking, and never disclose anything else, even tucked away in a corner somewhere, then that imo isn't right. I am sure you sound as though you know his work better than me...my only other contact was reading a Lasch piece on CBC hockey(I know you know nothing about hs area pucks, and that is okay) but the piece was praising CBC's good play etc..this year, with specifics. But somehow inexplicably ZERO reference to the biggest event of CBC's season. They won the prestigious Chicago Blackhawks Christmas Charity tourney against big time competition in Chicago. I posted it here but never did get a response on that one. So my contact is more limited. Vashon's streak reaches 47 By NATE LATSCH Special to the Post-Dispatch 01/18/2005 Forty-seven and counting. The Vashon basketball team turned up the pressure on East St. Louis, rolled for a 72-50 victory Monday at the Martin Luther King Shootout at Savvis Center and earned its 47th consecutive win. "We don't even talk about (the streak), honestly," Vashon coach Floyd Irons said. "I'm afraid to even bring it up. I want them to understand it's not going to be an easy road and the bull's-eye on their backs gets even bigger. There are teams out here we know are banking their whole season on beating us." Vashon, which went 31-0 last season, improved to 16-0 behind a game-high 18 points from junior point guard James Washington. Kenny Daniels scored 15 points and Bobby Hill added 10. Sophomore center Leon Powell had nine points and nine rebounds, while Johnny Hill had 13 rebounds. Vashon is the No.1 team in the Post-Dispatch large-schools rankings and No.3 in the USA Today Super 25 national rankings. Unranked East St. Louis, which had a five-game win streak snapped, fell to 10-8. Raymond Woods and Brandon Holmes each scored 13 points. Vashon and East St. Louis were tied 15-15 with 1 minute 55 seconds left in the first quarter, but the Wolverines pulled away. Vashon closed the first half with a 26-5 run and led by 21 points at halftime. "We picked it up," Irons said. "We did some things defensively. We controlled the boards. Johnny (Hill), Kenny (Daniels) and we all got in on sharing getting the rebounds. That is something we have worked on in practice." Vashon led 61-30 after three quarters and had a running clock for the first half of the fourth quarter. The Flyers ended the game with a 9-2 run to trim the final deficit to 22 points. "They just broke us down," East St. Louis coach Dennis Brooks said. "We had at least 13 or 14 turnovers in the first half. Turnovers killed us. We didn't take advantage of the ball and they took advantage of every opportunity they had. I guess they haven't won (47) in a row for nothing."

I never said Vashon went undefeated last year because they played small schools. Not once. However, if people are going to "hype" or "Praise" a big winning streak, it is absolutely necessary to indicate that Vashon's playoff run last year was in small schools. You can write an article for example hyping or praising their streak, ...great fine...I support that. But not including this year's schedule, and not including the fact that they participated in small schools for playoffs last year would be unfair. You can have a nice positive story on Vashon, but I think it is irresponsible to NOT write one sentence regarding those two things, if only to report full disclosure. That is all I ask, and let people decide their opinions for themselves. I would support a positive piece on the team and their success, if those two things were pointed out in the article.

It was a terrific game.

AJ, Perhaps it has come time for me to ignore any of your future posts. That woould be too bad. "You're on the side with Billiken Roy, who thinks that Floyd Irons is a very good coach, who has GREAT results because of his talent. I happen to think that NO other coach could do more with Vashon's talent. You might disagree and that's fine. Quite frankly, your last paragraph was a little unclear to me. However when I talk about illegal recruiting on the high school scene, I'm basing that on third hand information. Therefore, I qualified my statement, but let's just say I've talked to a few parents and a few coaches. Recruiting is a serious problem and Floyd Irons is far from being the only problem in that regard. It's too bad that when people focus on illegal recruiting that it seems like all talk and speculation centers on Irons. Now if you have a problem with that, oh well..." Let's see since somehow you aren't clear, let's take your most recent post as yet another example.....You make assumptions without support of fact as to what I think or do not think on a particular subject. You throw out inflammatory remarks to only later say, yeah my bad, not sure if it is true, or thrid hand info here as if it is oaky to still post that info as if it were factual. Either you are Floyd Irons, in love with Floyd Irons, related to Floyd Irons, have been held hostage by Floyd Irons or have some sort of built up resentment for anyone that even if praises Vashon, doesn't do it the level of religious worship. I will post the positive negative and indifferent on all topics if the topic warrants it. If the topic was is Vashon any good, the responses would be different. If the topic were Floyd Irons, obviously there would be detailed factual evidence of both positve and negative. If the topic was a particular game, and one team had no flaws in the game, it would be 100% positive. If that team won but didn't do some things well, or if other factors were at play, that would be noted too. If you aren't sure about your information so often why post it? Perhaps you confuse wanting something to be true with truth.

Skip, Sure credit should be given to schools who "try" to schedule tough teams. Obviously some teams have unpredicted unsuccessful seasons. I tried to answer part of your question with my post. The Illinois/Chicago schools however were not ranked in state or Chicago area poll(this would include possibly 40 teams) pre-season or regular season. Even more particular, Niles West does have one good young player on their team. Charleston's under .500 record has been well documented. Louisville Male whom they haven't played yet, ...has had an .500 year this year, but were ranked pre-season Louisville area poll around 10, for area, not state poll. The STL portion of the schedule isn't strong. The question here isn't if Vashon is scheduling soft teams to pad a schedule. Let's be clear about that. Credit to a "national ranking" should NOT be given based on teams played, if they aren't elite national caliber. Nobody is discrediting the success of the team, but to get a high natioal ranking, you should at least play several other highly ranked national opponents. Niagra NYC will be their one national game, and if they win, V lovers will think it will squash the rest of the schedule. If they lose, V haters will be all over it. I am neither a V lover or hater, so it won't have a big influence on me if they win or lose. Frankly this topic is exhausted. I do think it is irresponsible reporting from Nate Lasch to write an article about their "streak" without referencing they played small schools last year, and their schedule has been weak this year to balance out the piece as mostly positive, great, etc...but it should be noted who they've played. That is my opinion. I'd be more than happy to see any STL school have national success against national competition. And when Vashon defeats Niagra NYC, first thoughts will be too bad they didn't rack up more against other national teams. Hope it can clear up some of the schedule.

"Yeah, we've had our previous debates about why Vashon wins. You've been consistent in thinking that Vashon wins with superior athleticism that has been acquired through illegal means. I've been consistent in thinking that Vashon wins because they have a superior coach, who is grounded in elite fundamentals." It is actually getting too time consuming for me to have to point out each time I have to correct you.

..."By the way, I've heard that DeSmet and CBC has also engaged in illegal recruiting through sending correspondence and targeting students with great basketball skill. Now I don't know if that's true or not, but if people are going to denigrate Irons, I might as well denigrate Burgman's reputation." If I had a nickel for every example of an "AJ" comment like this...I'd be rich. The difference between my posts and yours couldn't be simpler. You can post two ways, 1) Give an opinion. 2) Provide the forum with facts. Your posts all too often come with a little line slipped in after a usually highly inflammatory remark...that is similar to the above..."Don't know if it is true or not, but..." As if to say, well, I am reporting this or that...don't know if it is true or not...now...I have all the faith in the world of intelligence on this board, to read your posts a little more carefully. Sadly in any group somebody is always going to read something and assume it is true. I mean seriously, why let facts get in the way. AJ is all knowing, no need for a board anymore Steve, time to shut it down. As for the thread, it regarded the current USA Today ranking. I have kindly obliged to other side topics. I actually even was the one who posted that Irons is a very good coach. But somehow that compliment was taken negatively because you needed more "love" for Irons, or for Vashon, or both, or the "African American." Now not knowing the answer nor caring, my statement there was an "opinion," a "guess," without fact. Stating the positive, the negative, and the indifferent objectively....wasn't enough for you. Perhaps your misguided negativity is for someone else? Nobody recruited me. So that by not responding it doesn't credit the above statement of AJ's regarding recruiting, I know a lot of coaches and programs, and could comment on the ones I know individually. But the above statement is incorrect, to be brief and polite.

Skip, it isn't a matter of thinking a team would be good when scheduling...the bottom line...and I really couldn't care less....but it isn't that difficult. Again, the original question was what do people think of the USA Today poll. Perhaps we could have said, "Not much," and moved on. It is okay to not take the poll seriously. So if we all know a team is ranked on reputation and bottom line record regardless of opponent, why can't that poll be questioned? None of the ILlinois teams on Vashon's schedule have been ranked all season....January 26th 2005 AP state rankings. Class AA 1. St. Joseph (25) 16-0 445 2. Thornton (2) 18-1 391 3. Julian 17-2 374 4. Westinghouse (1) 17-2 368 5. Hillcrest 14-2 320 6. Simeon 16-4 287 7. Carbondale 16-2 285 8. Homewood-Flossmoor 15-4 255 9. Glenbrook North 15-2 229 10. Peoria Richwoods 12-5 177 11. Proviso East 14-3 144 12. West Aurora 15-3 125 13. Warren 14-2 95 14. Bloomington 14-3 78 15. Marist 15-2 52 16. Thornridge 14-5 42 Others receiving votes: Marshall, Rockford Jefferson, Edwardsville, Peoria Central, Mount Zion, Mount Vernon, Champaign Central, Alton, Lyons, Lincoln, Crane, Belleville West, Bolingbrook, Von Steuben, Bloom, Glenbrook South, Neuqua Valley. Class A 1. Hales Franciscan (17) 15-4 317 2. Quincy Notre Dame (3) 19-1 288 3. Breese Central 19-1 258 4. Seneca 19-0 256 5. Belleville Althoff 11-6 230 6. Winnebago 14-2 184 7. Teutopolis 16-3 157 8. Leo 13-5 152 9. West Frankfort 16-3 139 10. Normal U-High 14-4 126 11. Lovington 15-0 99 12. Rock Falls 14-4 82 13. Barry 18-1 78 14. Nashville 16-5 52 15. Colfax Ridgeview 16-1 39 16. (tie) Carthage 16-2 35 16. (tie) Hope 19-6 35 Others receiving votes: Mason City Illini

Wow, U of L up 40 points in final ten minutes and still full court press with starters....you would think Pitino was 1-7 lifetime against Crean or something.;-)