Dean's List for Tommie

[davidlee]

I saw this in this morning's Belleville News-Democrat in the Campus News section;

"Tommie Lee Liddell, son of Tommie Liddell of Belleville, was named to the dean's list for the fifth-six-week grading period of the 2004-2005 school year at Hargrave Military Academy in Chatham, Va."

[VTIME]

Yes, we all know Tommie is smart. That's why you cant put too much weight into the ACT and SAT. Standardized test are unfair because there is no standard curriculum in every school all the schools are doing different things and using different teaching methods.

[TheGoat]

>That's why you cant put too much weight into the ACT and SAT. >Standardized test are unfair because there is no standard >curriculum in every school all the schools are doing different >things and using different teaching methods.

CORRECTION. I am fairly sure that the state of Missouri public school system as well as every other state mandates that all schools follow the same ciriculum and same standards for education. Now while teaching methods may differ from school to school, the same material is covered. To claim that standardized tests are unfair is assinine. For 95% of the American population, standardized tests give an accurate representation of the knowledge base that a person has. Not one high school in America requires that every student take the most difficult courses every year as the ACT and SAT are testing standards taught in HS core cirriculum. Now, true there are certain people who are poor test takers and I certainly will acknowledge those people. However, there are ways around these issues in the form of programs in high school and college for students that need extra time or explanation while taking tests and all of these needs are readily available should the student stand up and let someone know that he/she needs assistance. I have no problem saying that there are just some people are not cut out for the academic work that college requires as some of my best friends in the world never went to college a day in thier life. Now, unfortunately we have reached a day and age where there are some athletes that value athletics over academics. The choice is clear, to play beyond HS, you must get the grades. This is why you see more and more students with tutoring and academic assistance. The concept really isn't that hard. Study the basics that you have been taught. Get your 17 on your ACT and your in. Thats all. Now, in closing. If your favorite player does poorly on the ACT/SAT or combo of both there is a couple of different ways to look at it. You can blame the player, the school, the testing site, the breakfast the player has, the players dog, the clouds in the sky, the trade winds, hell blame the damn vernal equinox for all I care. The one thing that you absolutely cannot blame is the test. You know why? I will tell you. Pick your favorite school, or I will do it for you. Look at Vashon. Hell, take Nick Kern for example. He didn't make grades. Fine. But I would be you my entire life savings that there was someone at Vashon at the same time that took the same classes that he did, that DID pass. True, Kern may have been a poor test taker and as I stated before, I can accept that. However, that is NOT the fault of the test. It is very easy to blame stuff on standardized test, but as you can see, with a little common sense (which you need to excell on a standardized test by the way) you can easily see that tests are not the problem.

[kevinfootes]

but come on! The minimum scores to get in to college and play D1 are not particularly high. In fact, since the test scores are so "biased", they've made exceptions to balance them with GPA. The only way you don't qualify is if you have poor test scores AND poor GPA. You can't blame the system for that. I don't know Tommie from Adam. I don't know whether or not he's smart. I do know that it took a fifth year of high school to get his attention. I think you could make just as strong an argument that Tommie didn't work very hard in high school and got poor advice by not taking the tests enough times.

The only way you could make a fair comparison is to comapre his GPA and test scores with his classmates. If he's in the middle somewhere then it might be safe to blame the system. Nobody I know has that info.

Let's hope he pays attention while at SLU.

[VTIME]

Schools do teach different things. For example in high school, I had a year of World History, a year of Honors History, a semester of Political Science and a year of Black History in my four years. A student at another school may not be taught black history outside of black history month, so if there are a series of black history on questions on test, one student would be at a disadvantage. Also in high school, we had a testing of basic math skills when we first entered. Based on your scores you start with either Algebra 1 or Algebra 2. The system goes Algebra, then Algebra 2 the next year, then Geometry the following year, then Trigonometry, and then Calculus. If you start with Algebra 1 ,the farthest you can make it is to Trigonometry, if you tested well enough then you can start with Algebra 2 and then eventually make it to Calculus. So even within the same school half the students would be at a disadvantage, because they would've never had an inkling at the principles of Calculus. Schools do teach different subjects. At Cardinal Ritter they teach Theology every year, which is taking the place of at least one core class per year that a student another school would be learning. All schools are not the same. Particularly in the PHL, almost all the school have been underfunded for years. Career Academy and Vashon have gotten new schools recently, that might explain why Vashon's 2006 class has done so well in school. Those two schools no longer have outdated texts, but are still overcrowded which leads to the discipline problems that seem to always wind up on the news. I'm sure everyone saw the riot at Riverview Gardens High School on the news where the students walked out of the school and all hell broke loose. They were ambushed by the police and just fought who ever was coming at them, including each other. There were helicopters overhead. Not a very productive learning environment in my opinion.

[cheeseman]

Actually, I am very knowlegeable on this subject - I spent over 30 years working in this field. The state of MO does not have a statewide curriculum and most states do not. There certainly is not a national curriculum either unlike in France. All school district have to do is make sure that their overall student performance meets the No Child Left Behind Act and any state score requirements. Most districts follow their own standards and try to incorporate the state standards to some extent just to make sure they meet the minimum score requirements to keep the state off their backs but still provide much more which is what the community expects. The problem is the state tests have some very narrow objectives which most find hard to warrant spending much time on and leaving out other things that kids really need to know. Finally, the ACT is simply nationally normed standardized test that measures a variety of things but most importantly it measures if a person is a good test taker. Taking a standardized test is a skill some kids come by naturally and others struggle with. That is why nobody only uses standardized tests to admit kids - they use a combination of scores and grades. In Tommie's case what he did this year shows a couple of things about him - 1. he is smart enough and has the ability if he applies himself to go to college, 2. he either did not apply himself in high school or his overall high school experience was lacking for whatever the reason or both. This is great news about Tommie because now we know he can be successful at SLU - it is simply up to him.

[VTIME]

I agree. Change of environment can do wonders for kids.

[TheGoat]

To my knowledge there are no Black History Month questions on the ACT. However, you simply reiterated my point. All HS in every state have MINIMUM requirements that they are taught. The ACT and SAT grade these requirements. The difference you speak of in your math classes is easy to explain. If the NCAA wanted everyone to take calculus, the mandatory minimum for getting in would be in the high 20's. As it is, it is 17. You do not have to take caluculus to get a 17 on the ACT. You do however have to know basic things and study hard in school. It really comes down to a matter of effort in my opinion. As I stated earlier, there are people in this world that have difficulty with test taking, and I do not by any means chastise them for those issues. However, when signing up for the ACT you can request academic assistance in the form of extra time &/or having questions read to you, the requirement for these priveledges being that you are tested for them prior to taking the exam. Now, is it the ACT's fault if the student doesn't have the initiative to stand up and say that he/she needs assistance? I think not. If someone takes the exam and recieves a difficient score, and later states that "The test isn't fair, it only measures test taking ability", that is just plain and simply being mis-informed in the first place. It is on the STUDENT to adapt to the test, not the test to the student.

[VTIME]

What about the many schools who dont emphasize the importance of ACT and SAT. What about the kids that have no support system at home. There are millions of youth, in particular black youth who's parents just dont give a ****. It's sad, but true. Can you really blame them for not succeeding, or not passing the ACT. They are lucky to graduate. Its hard to survive feeling unloved and unwanted. Kids need more than a roof over their head. There are other factors in a kids education than just the school or the kid not putting forth the effort. Environment is HUGE obstacle for many.

[aj_arete]

Until you can show me documentation that shows there's not a significant relationship between social class and achievement then that's a bunch of bunk. There are varying definitions of fairness, but here's the question I would pose to you. Do you think there are SIGNIFICANT differences in standardized test scores between wealthy and poorer school districts and this takes race out of the equation? If the answer is yes, I think one could make an argument that standardized testing is unfair.

Why? Because one could make an argument that wealthier school districts have more resources at their disposal to train their students.

[TheGoat]

>What about the many schools who dont emphasize the

>importance of ACT and SAT. What about the kids that have no

>support system at home. There are millions of youth, in

>particular black youth who's parents just dont give a ****.

>It's sad, but true. Can you really blame them for not

>succeeding, or not passing the ACT. They are lucky to

>graduate. Its hard to survive feeling unloved and unwanted.

> Kids need more than a roof over their head. There are

>other factors in a kids education than just the school or

>the kid not putting forth the effort. Environment is HUGE

>obstacle for many.

I agree with you whole heartedly. However, if they cannot make the grades in HS, are we to bend the rules to get them in and have them fail in the academic world in college? As I stated before, there are many people in this world that are not suited for college, some of my best friends in the world that are actually a lot smarter than me (and i have a graduate degree) never stepped foot in a collge classroom. I blame no one, but I do not want our academic institutions in this nation compromised b/c we want better basketball teams and so that someone who does not deserve to be in collge can play ball.

[aj_arete]

is all relative. If you look at urban schools (and rural schools for that matter) ACROSS the country and measure what the top 10% are doing relative to suburbia. I think you'd be surprised at the results and you'd see how the so-called minimum scores are in fact TOUGH to achieve.

There's no doubt that the disparities are more pronounce across race. But if you looked at poor whites relative to rich and middle income whites, I think you'd be surprised at how much of a difference the scores are.

[VTIME]

Oh, I agree. I was never trying to make it a race issue as I am often accused. It is more of class thing.

Mr. President, there's drugs in our residence.

Tell me what you want me to do, come break bread with us.

Mr. Governor, I swear there's a cover-up.

Every other corner there's a liquor store, what f*** is up.

-JayZ

[TheGoat]

There are varying

>definitions of fairness, but here's the question I would

>pose to you. Do you think there are SIGNIFICANT differences

>in standardized test scores between wealthy and poorer

>school districts

Absolutely, but in my opinion, not all of it has to do with resources. Your statement about parent apathy speaks volumes to me.

[VTIME]

We dont need to bend the rules. If a student cant pass the ACT, it doesnt mean they cant go to college, its just means they cant play college sports outside of the junior college level to begin with. If there is a student who wants to go to college, there are still plenty of choices. All they have to do is apply. At the very least they can go to Junior College for cheap and get a two year degree and go from there. I'm just saying, the kid or the school isnt always necessarily to blame for the child not succeeding, sometimes the environment cannot be overcome. Its a case-by-case basis.

[TheGoat]

>is all relative. If you look at urban schools (and rural

>schools for that matter) ACROSS the country and measure what

>the top 10% are doing relative to suburbia. I think you'd

>be surprised at the results and you'd see how the so-called

>minimum scores are in fact TOUGH to achieve.

>

>There's no doubt that the disparities are more pronounce

>across race. But if you looked at poor whites relative to

>rich and middle income whites, I think you'd be surprised at

>how much of a difference the scores are.

Well I will speak from one vantage point on this topic. I attended a very rural public high school. I lived in a town of 6,000 about 40 miles west of St. Louis and in a school district that was very poor, but fairly well off compared to most inner city schools. Many of the local communities around us were not large enough to equip a HS so all the student came to ours. Now we were were/are a farming community so many of the students were not going to college or going to community college from the get go so the ACT arguement does not apply. In our school we were over 90% white or mixed race white. Now, if I remember correctly only 60% of our graduating class of 217 applied to take the ACT and over 90% of those students qualified for four year universities. Perhaps I am biased, but earning a 17 on the ACT with a little effort is not all that complicated with all the assistance that is out there in the community no matter what school district you are in or where you live. The key is the effort!

[TheGoat]

I completely agree. I just wish that people would stop using the same old blame game on standardized testing.

[TheGoat]

Nurture only goes so far, at some point Nature will catch up to you. Translation, some times you can help someone all you want and give them all the advantages that you possibly can, but take them out of the environment that brings them down, and you would be surprised how well some people can do.

[VTIME]

40% of your school didnt even apply though and that's comparable to the percentage of kids at public schools who apply. At Normandy, where I graduated from, the school made each junior apply for ACT. Whether you showed to the test date was up to you, but the school made you sign up. All schools dont do that, and the importance was never really emphasized. If I wasnt such a big sports fan, who knew you needed certain scores to play collegiately, I probably wouldnt have taken it either. Speaking of Normandy, 2003 graduate and friend of mine Laurence Maroney will be a first day pick in the NFL drft this time next year. Congratulations Laurence.

[TheGoat]

I like the idea of mandatory applications for juniors. At my HS it was simply b/c people knew that they were going to continue farming. Take it to the inner city and you can make the comparisons easily.

[aj_arete]

did not gather data on the performance of their school system. Here's the link to data on all school districts in Missouri:

http://www.dese.state.mo.us/schooldata/

When I have some free time, I'll do a quick analysis of school districts where their demographics are poorer than the state average. I would use the percentage of families receiving free or reduced lunches as a proxy of that.

Of course, Rockwood and Parkway school districts score in the 23 ACT range. Then you have a Jennings where the average score is 17. Festus, Franklin County and Cole counties range in the 19-21 range. Of course, the difference is not as pronounced, but I think you would see a signficant difference based on the income levels.

[Orange Julius]

>Yes, we all know Tommie is smart. That's why you cant put

>too much weight into the ACT and SAT. Standardized test are

>unfair because there is no standard curriculum in every

>school all the schools are doing different things and using

>different teaching methods.

His GPA must have been horrible. Because of the NCAA D1 regulations the higher your GPA the lower your ACT score can be. So the alleged bias that the ACT contains is a mute point. The GPA is based on a core group of classes that every school offers.

[kevinfootes]

I don't know anybody with that info. But it's a COMBINATION of scores and grades. He didn't make it with either. Let's hope he'll be ready now.

[TheGoat]

Well, I went to HS in Franklin County and I can speak on experience that we are far from rich in any part of our school district.

[VTIME]

He did better, because he was in a better environment that East St. Louis, IL. I hate to knock that area, but my friends only go over there for the "Pink Slip" and the "Soft Touch." Getting Liddell in an environment with the necessary resources to succeed, he showed that he is a very good student. The other Tommie Liddell who plays basketball for E. Saint Louis High is a good student as well.