Bay Area Billiken

This is an outstanding move on multiple levels. 1. It gets the A-10 more into New York City, the media capital of the world. There are a veritable multitude of things to do in New York City. The Barclay's Center is in the heart of Brooklyn and easily accessible by the New York subway from Manhattan and the hotels, Times Square, the theater district, the Lincoln Center, etc. 2. It gets the A-10 Tournament out of Atlantic City's Boardwalk Hall, which was a de facto Temple home court. 3. This could very much help the Fordham program. Fordham is talking about playing some regular season games at the Barclay's Center, as it is locked out of the closer (to Fordham) Madison Square Garden by St. John's. 4. New York City is much easier to reach by air than is Atlantic City, with 3 major airports and non-stop flights, without the need to drive from the Philadelphia Airport to Atlantic City. 5. Until the Fordham program rises, although that is coming sooner than you probably think under Coach Pecora, Barclay's Center will be a more neutral court. 6. This will be putting the A-10 brand- and more importantly A-10 schools, such as SLU, right under the lenses of the Big East, and the Catholic Big East (CYO) to boot. 7. This provides more A-10 visibility in the recruiting hotbed of New York City.

I don't know per se, except I do know that the A-10, C-USA, the Mountain West, and the WAC (in the past as to the WAC, probably not now or soon) are not in the BCS, but are not considered mid-major. They are in an in between category. A few years ago Xavier refused a mid-major player award to Lavender.

My opinion is that Butler's presence in the Horizon has indeed had much to do with its success. In the Horizon, Butler faces no competition on par with the likes of Xavier or Temple, especially a Temple playing the A-10 Tournament in Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City. A Butler in the A-10 the last 15 years would have been a Butler with far fewer NCAA Tournament appearances, in my opinion. But more power and kudos go to Butler for its evidently correct decision to make itself the big fish in a small pond.

Coach Majerus mentioned previously turning down a home and home with Butler. I agree with the coach's retrospective view that turning down the home and home with Butler was a mistake. I'm sure Coach Majerus did not expect Butler to be a serious opponent in the recruitment of the grandson of the greatest Billiken of all time, who goes to DeSmet Jesuit High School. Frankly, would anyone from SLU? I readily admit that I wouldn't have expected that. But it may have helped to have played that home and home, and at minimum win the game in St. Louis, where Butler traditionally is toast. We have to move onward now. Nolan Berry can enjoy his time in the big gym from Hoosiers. SLU can fill that spot with someone his equal or someone better. Also, in response to the above labeling of SLU as a fellow "mid-major," by a Butler poster, the Atlantic 10 by definition, is not mid-major. Xavier refused a mid-major player award to one of its players, and the A-10 does not play in the Bracket Buster. Now in advance response to the expected inevitable rebuttals from fellow Billikens on this board, just remember whose side you are on.

All-time head to head series: SLU 16 wins, Butler 11 wins. An above poster said SLU and Butler were once even. I beg to differ: SLU was ahead of Butler until this most recent Butler success. Re all those NCAA's in recent history, many of those were the product of Butler being in the Horizon League, which is fine, but merits mention. Even last season may well have been a product of the Horizon. But it puts things in some perspective. Also, re Santa Clara mentioned above, Santa Clara won the CIT last season and has an up and coming program under a former UCLA Assistant, who is being well compensated, and who has that program turning the corner. Santa Clara is a Jesuit school, has a highly ranked Business School in the middle of Silicon Valley, has a beautiful campus, a large endowment, and is ranked #2 in the West in the Regional Masters category by US News & World Report. And so it's clear, I root for USF ahead of SCU. More particular to basketball, Nolan Berry appears to fit the profile of Butler and Santa Clara 4's and 5's. Still, it is tough losing him, especially to a Butler.

I doubt the Phillies are interested in seeing the Cardinals again. They are probably content with not seeing the Giants either. Bill Parcells says you are what your record is. But even if the standings don't show it, I think the Cardinals are better than Milwaukee and Atlanta, and that the Giants are better than Arizona, even the 2011 Hitless Wonder Giants. That was a devastating, numbing loss yesterday. Hopefully, the Cards can turn the page starting tonight against the Cubs.

The stage in Kiel Auditorium was on the north side of the auditorium, and I think the opera house would have been north of that. I don't know if the auditorium stage actually opened to the opera house side. I've never been in the opera house. Kiel Auditorium was a double decked horseshoe, with the stage at what would be considered the "open" (north) end. Planks were placed down from the stage to the court with folding chair seats on those planks. When I visited SLU in 1978, the SLU students, at least the ones taking me, sat on that stage side. When I was a SLU undergraduate (the 4 years of Ekker), the SLU home games were at the Checkerdome (Arena). Buth when Rich Grawer took over, the games were moved back to Kiel Auditorium. Most of the time we sat in the red chair seats on the West side, the second level of the lower deck.

Absolutely re the first part of your last sentence, and you are speaking to the choir. To answer your questions: It seems from what we've read this week that recent NCAA Tournament success makes a difference. That's evidently what would make Xavier and especially Butler the supposed first two picks. Also rans like DePaul and Seton Hall (charter Big East member) are grandfathered in. DePaul presumably got picked to begin with because it brings the Chicago market (#3) and it has a prior sports relationship with Notre Dame (as does Marquette). Further, it is geographically close to Notre Dame. St. John's is a charter Big East member with contractual pull at Madison Square Garden. St. John's is known as the basketball school in New York City, the nation's largest media market. And the St. John's program is clearly on the upswing under Coach Steve Lavin. I loved seeing the Johnnies destroy Duke last season, especially after Fordham beat St. John's earlier in the season. I think SLU could offer more than a whole host of these supposed competitors, such as Dayton, Creighton, Butler, Duquesne, St. Joe's. SLU can offer more than Seton Hall, although that is probably irrelevant as Seton Hall appears to be grandfathered in. All SLU has to do is upgrade the outside perception of its basketball program, and the best way to do that is NCAA Tournament bids and then NCAA Tournament wins.

There you have it. We're a Top 50 Program. Mission accomplished (just kidding). Someone should send this to the Catholic Big East (CYO) Office. Keep the faith. This is going to be our year, The Year of the Billiken!

My Uncle told me that back in the glory days, which must have been the 1950's, Bradley, which was then a huge rival, stole the Billiken statue. In my undergraduate days under Ekker, we sat behind the basket on the north end at the Checkerdome (Arena) perpendicular to the opponent's bench. We could talk to the opponent's players on the bench during the game. With so few people at the games, they could hear us, as could the refs. We used to yell at Denny Crum to put Marty Pulliam in the game. Crum acted like he didn't hear us, but we know he did. The Louisville bench flat out cracked up. A season ticket holder, I presume, sat across from the opponent's bench in the good seats. I remember him throwing a coin out on the court. Again with a virtually empty, cavernous building, we could hear the coin bouncing around on the wood court. Another great line was from the North Texas State Coach. When asked what he thought of the Checkerdome, he said, "You could put a lot of hay in this barn."

I know, Taj. But I could never understand why ND played DePaul and Marquette twice a year, even Dayton twice a year, when all four of them were Independents, and all those years there were no ND-SLU meetings. Look at Marquette. Really the only difference between Marquette (the old Jesuit University X) and SLU that would favor Marquette is its basketball program, and I continue to contend that the SLU program was ahead of Marquette's during the Spoonball Era. Add the post on a Marquette board that ND went to bat for Marquette to get Marquette into the Big East. And I have that memory of someone at ND championing Creighton. Why doesn't ND champion SLU, give us a hand, or at least give us a break by not favoring a competitor? Is there an answer? That's why I started this thread. And yes, from my observations of Domers, and some of my friends are Domers, they've got us lowly Billikens lumped in with the Jaspers, Ramblers, Titans, LMU Lions, etc.

Thanks Tar Heel. I remember reading on this board that coins were thrown at the ND team. Did that happen? If so, was that at that last game at the old Kiel? I remember my first game at the old Kiel in 1978 against Tulane (Ron Coleman's 1 season) and was amazed that the teams went down the ramp from the stage right through the SLU students to get to the court. I thought that was great, along with the then SLU Jazz Band playing "Three Blind Mice" during the game at the refs. Digger Phelps ripped USF Coach Jim Brovelli the last time ND played USF at USF's War Memorial Gym. USF won an incredible upset over an ND team led by LaPhonso Ellis. Digger told Brovelli that he would never be back to play in this CYO Gym. OT but re upsets, I told Fordham President Father McShane after commencement in May that I think the greatest upset I've ever seen in my life (this one on the YES Network) was Fordham's upset victory over St. John's last December. I am not kidding. If you saw those two teams, you would say that there was no way Fordham could win- but the Rams won.

It used to make me cringe when the Savvis Center wasn't available for SLU NIT games. Think about that- SLU didn't get to host Notre Dame in an NIT game because of Disney on Ice, or something similar. It was always something. However, I wonder if SLU would have hosted ND even if Savvis Center had been available. We watched on TV that Iowa NIT game (the Drejaj buzzer beater), which was played at Family Arena in St. Charles amidst the bumblebee and all the lines painted on the floor. I was hoping we could at least get the Irish at Family Arena. I remember when they announced Ft. Wayne, and thought what in the world? Ft. Wayne? We were at a Saturday afternoon game against the then SW Mo. State. SLU, coached by Spoon, won in OT, and almost immediately the PA Announcer was announcing to clear the facility because the Blues were playing that night. That's among the many reasons why I liked the old Kiel Auditorium, where SLU was pretty much the #1 tenant. Plus, it was built for basketball and was a real pit and a great place to watch a game.

I've often wondered what it would have been like to be a Domer. I've rooted for ND my whole life in football, from Notre Dame Football on Sunday mornings with Lindsey Nelson and Paul Hornung to the NBC games now with Tom Hammond. Dave Casper is in our parish men's group. Talk about the stories he can tell. But I'm proud to be a Billiken. We are the ultimate underdogs. It is so good when we win.

Re Bonwich's post above, I was at the Duke game at Kiel Auditorium. That was my last year at SLU Law School and in St. Louis. We were amazed that Duke was playing our Billikens at Kiel, but the result wasn't pretty: Duke 97 SLU 64. I looked up info in an old SLU Media Guide. SLU played Notre Dame annually for 6 straight years beginning with Buddy Brehmer's last year of 1968-69 and through all 5 of Bob Polk's years at the helm, 3 in St. Louis and 3 at ND. SLU won 2 of those 6 games. Notre Dame last played SLU in St. Louis on 12/9/72, in the '72-'73 season, with SLU winning 60-58. That SLU team finished 19-7. Polk had 3 real good teams at SLU, and I knew a little bit about the Billikens from what was then afar, growing up in Quincy. Then SLU under Ekker lost at ND 93-65 in the 1979-80 season, my sophomore year at SLU. The next meeting was in that same season that SLU hosted Duke, in the 1984-85 season. Rich Grawer's Billikens lost at Notre Dame 48-42. That is the one I remember Digger Phelps' comments about St. Louis coming in here and holding the ball. After that, the teams did not play until that infamous NIT game in the 2003-04 season, an ND 77-66 win in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. The last meeting was 2 seasons ago on 11/28/09 in the Chicago Invitational Challenge at the UIC Pavilion. ND won 64-52. Notre Dame leads the all-time series with SLU 17-14.

Or in this case, the big Longhorn in the room. Yes, I agree with you re Arkansas being a good comparison.

LOL! We have some posters who remember those ND games v. SLU in St. Louis, a memorable game against Austin Carr. Those look like they were great games. I've always wondered why the series was discontinued. ND hasn't played SLU in St. Louis since the early 1970's.

http://gmuhoops.tumblr.com/post/10479395863 Good grief. Deferral baby, deferral. Piecing things together, reading the Marquette board (muscoop.com) and the latest NY Times article, it looks like the Big East will stay together through 2013, or what would be the 2013-14 basketball season. Reason- the Big East is holding Pitt and Syracuse to the 27 months, which ironically was reportedly insisted upon by the Pitt Chancellor. This would include the Basketball schools staying with the Football schools. But a tug-of-war for Philly could be on the horizon between Villanova and Temple for Big East football. That is a real juicy continuing saga to watch. See the NY Times article. Also that NY Times article says UConn has no place to go (other than staying in the Big East), but throws in the MAC with UMass. That was interpreted here as a shot at UConn. The ACC is staying at 14, leaving 2 spots open for a big catch like Notre Dame or Texas. Per that NY Times article, UConn does not have an Athletic Director and has a new President. I've considered UConn, a charter Big East member, as part of the glue holding the two sides of the Big East together. UConn may now need to pledge allegiance to the Big East for its own good.

FWIW, I think Mizzou is better off in the Big XII and would be the Ole Miss of the Midwest in the SEC, sometimes good, but never good enough, and sometimes not so good. Mizzou in the SEC might not have to deal with Texas, or even Oklahoma, but would have to deal with the likes of Florida, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, etc. Also being in the SEC would take Mizzou away from its Texas recruiting base, as in 40 players on the roster. Yes, Texas A&M presumably would be in the SEC, but Texas (Big XII) is more important than A&M, even if the Aggies would deny that.

Did SLU ever do something to rub Notre Dame the wrong way? Was there a falling out? This poster would appreciate input from his elders on this board, and from anyone with knowledge for that matter. I was at SLU from 1978-1985. SLU played annual home and homes with Notre Dame going into the earlier 1970's. Why did that series end? What I do know is: 1. SLU played what would now probably be called a buy game at ND under Ekker when I was a SLU undergraduate. We had 27 guys in our dorm room on 6-G watching that game. It was euphoria on Cellblock 6 when Kelvin Henderson dunked on Kelly Tripucka. SLU tied that game at something like 27, and then just got steamrolled. My recollection is that the Wizard of Westwood himself, John Wooden was the TV analyst. I remember Wooden saying, "The Billikens." 2. When I was at SLU Law School during the early Rich Grawer Era, Coach Grawer's Billikens, led by Luther Burden and PeeWee Lenard, nearly pulled off an upset in South Bend, losing a low scoring game in the 40's. Digger Phelps commented about St. Louis coming in here and holding the ball. I've always wondered if that game had some effect on ND not playing SLU. 3. Under Brad Soderberg, that NIT game with ND was mysteriously transferred at the 11th hour to Ft. Wayne, Indiana. It looked like it was going to played in St. Louis, as the Joyce Center was unavailable. Notre Dame says it still plays Navy in football because the Navy kept the ND campus afloat during WWII. Well, the first Notre Dame curriculum was the Jesuit curriculum from SLU. What about some ND sentiment coming SLU's way for that? I bring this up because of what we've been reading this week about the possible Catholic Basketball Conference.

I would think Butler will be able to recruit as long as it can keep its current coach.

I think Butler might say no to the A-10, but not to the Basketball (Catholic) Big East- I think Butler would jump at the chance for that. One of my qualms re Creighton is that during one of the times this came up, in relatively more recent history, an official in the Athletic Dept. at Notre Dame, my recollection is he had baseball ties, was championing Creighton's candidacy. That was very disconcerting and frankly a bit surprising. Notre Dame is very influential, and is said to have championed Marquette's Big East candidacy. Of course, I think SLU should be picked ahead of a Creighton- geography, bigger media market, etc. But Creighton plays in that big new Quest Center, draws big crowds, and has had a successful basketball program, multiple post-season bids. My citing that internet poll on a Marquette board was met with objections on this board. But the final results are very interesting, in my opinion, perhaps a foreshadowing of what could well have actually happened. Butler actually garnered more votes than Notre Dame and finished 8th with 106 votes. The cutoff was 11 for a 12 team league, as Marquette is a given member of the 12. SLU finished in 11th place, which would be the last team in, with 43 votes. Creighton finished 12th, the first team out, with 41 votes. There was a big gap between SLU at #11 and #10 Dayton, which had 77 votes. Xavier, an overwhelming choice, finished in 4th place with 123 votes. See muscoop.com. And another key is this poll is based upon a 12 team conference. The word this week was that Xavier and Butler would have received the first 2 invitations. And that could well have been for a 10 team, not 12 team, conference, at least at first. So if SLU is the 12th team for a 10 team league, that is not good. Yes, I know that an internet poll of one school's posters on a message board is not dispositive, that the Basketball Big East is not going to base any such decision on an internet poll of fans, etc., et al. But that poll is just that, a poll, albeit an unscientific one. And it does show perception, as in outside perception of programs. That's why the magical word for SLU is deferral, put this off. Strengthen the program, get in the NCAA Tournament, win games once SLU gets there. And get the program to the point wherein SLU is the school that gets picked, in which SLU's program is ahead of schools like Dayton, Butler, and Creighton, wherein SLU is like Xavier, a no questions asked given. It could happen. It almost did already. The potential is still there. If you aren't going to get picked now, it is better to put things off and be chosen later. Bill DeWitt has run a largely successful St. Louis National League franchise, with many player salary decisions based upon that magical word, deferral. Deferral can be good.

Butler has parlayed being the biggest fish in a small pond into multiple NCAA bids and new found name recognition as a perceived mid-major basketball power. One wonders just how many of those Butler NCAA Tournament appearances would have even happened had Butler been in the A-10. The Butler poster on this board would know more, but my take is Butler will stay in the Horizon unless it receives an invitation from something above the A-10, such as the Basketball side of the Big East. This being said, it would seem that from the A-10 and SLU's perspective, Butler would be a good addition to the A-10, and provide an opponent closer to St. Louis, reachable by bus.

Winning (successful) basketball program.

I agree re 12, and SLU is in the hunt as #12, at best as #11. The competition is Dayton and Creighton, some think St. Joe's, but I don't agree due to the Villanova block, that is as long as Villanova is in the Big East itself. But would they even go to 12, or would they only go to 10? What I want to see happen is the SLU program gets in NCAA Tournaments, hopefully even wins some games there, which again hopefully would put SLU back in front of Butler where SLU belongs. In advance, I haven't been living in a cave the last 2 years, and know full well where Butler has been those last 2 years, and also where Butler has been the last decade. But the way I see it, through my Billiken Blue hued lenses (not Butler Blue) is this is supposed to be the CATHOLIC Big East, the long sought Papal or Vatican Conference. So why would our Catholic brethren schools be inviting Butler into that? That's a rhetorical question, and what I've read this week makes me cringe. Of course, we all know the answer to the question.