Hardball

Taj as I have said many times before if you are not getting the recruits there is only one person to blame. Many on your list are not our current HC's fault but in the last five yers he has missed many more times than he has been successful. The miss's have come in the form of lack of evaluation skills or just plain losing a player. The kool-aid drinkers want you to think that comments regarding lack of recruiting are coming from people who do not know anything about basketball. Or maybe it is the cell phone policy of the coaches or lack of budget or less than adequate facilities........ Why do we need patience, five plus years is enough to understand what you have. No NCAA appearances, No early recruits, constantly taking other school's leftover's, offering kid's who do not have schoolarships from anyone else, needing seven evaluation periods on a guy that is good enough to be offered by Indiana, passing on kids who turn out to be WAY better than the one's you have offerred...... this list can go on and on and on and on

The list continues to grow. Duke Kentucky North Carolina Indiana Purdue SIU Miami of Ohio Louisville Now Iowa

The list continues to grow. Duke Kentucky North Carolina Indiana Purdue SIU Miami of Ohio Now Louisville

Taj79, There is no need for an apology as it relates to the title of this thread on my account. All I have is my own opinions. I do not suggest my opinions are in any way more valid than yours or any other Billiken supporter. I have real concerns over the direction of the Billiken basketball program. I think the program can be better, should be better given the fact other Head Coaches with limited resources or time on the job are getting it done relative to our basketball program. My Top 5 suggestions for BS: 1. FIND A WAY TO GET ANTHONEY BONNER ON YOUR STAFF OR INVOLVED WITH YOUR PROGRAM. Do what ever it takes to get him involved. AB could be a great recruiting tool when talking to players because he can speak from experience. Anthony was not a McDonald's All American coming out of high school yet through hard work and the right direction he became an NBA player. What a story to tell recruits. Why wouldn't SLU or BS do everything within their power to leverage this story? Let kids know they could do the same and here's how! Make him an offer he can't refuse! Secondly, make a REAL effort to bring Larry Hughes back into the Billiken family. This is another great resource we should be leveraging at every opportunity. Hughes brought James and Iverson to a basketball camp at CBC this summer and the kids ate it up. If his high school can do it shouldn't SLU be able to do the same? Just imagine how a potential recruit would feel if on his official visit he "just happen" to meet and chat with Hughes and friends. As the commercial says...Priceless. When you have a resource such as Hughes it pays for itself to maintain a close relationship. No excuses here if there has been a falling out of some sort fix the problem because in the end SLU will benefit. 2. HIRE A PROVEN RECRUITER. Your assistants may be great guys but they are not getting the job done. I do not want to hear that SLU does not pay their assistant coaches enough to make this a reality. If SLU will not up the anti sacrifice some of your own salary to make it happen. I am serious with this suggestion. I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. We need players. If SLU wants to be a Top 20 program we need to begin picking our players not taking other schools leftovers. A big time recruiter will get early commitments, generate excitement and will consistently win the battles with the Mid-Con conferences. I assure you that if BS would find a way to make this financial consideration he will receive the benefit tenfold. 3. CHANGE YOUR OFFENSE AND RUN. Trust me, recruits do not get excited about the possibility, nor do they want to play slow down ball in the 30's or 40's. I'm sure every recruit has heard this negative comment from opposing coaches. BS has promised a running game every year and yet for whatever reason he falls back into his control game. I know it is hard to change but BS must if we are going to optimize our current talent. BS needs to understand that with a running game you will have more turnovers and more ill advised shots but accept the drawbacks because you will also get more offensive sets for Ian and more shots for your shooters. But most importantly you will eliminate the negative recruiting and have a system that recruits will want to come play for. 4. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX WHEN RECRUITING. STOP the seven-evaluation requirement nonsense. BS has been around basketball along time at all levels and he should know by now who can play and who can't. Also don't listen to friends of the program when they tell you a local recruit is not interested in coming to St. Louis University. It is your job to convince the player why St. Louis University is the BEST OPTION. Much has been made about offering the Suggs brother a scholarship. I would make that deal in a second if it meant SLU would get the basketball player. Brandenberg had a brother playing for Kirkwood last year that same deal should have been talked about with the Brandeberg family. I would bet no such conversation took place. Making these deals should not be looked upon as a sign of weakness but rather doing whatever it takes to better your program. Brown did it with Manning at Kansas, Williams made a deal to get Gideon’s at Kansas and Calapari does it all the time. If thinking outside the box and making deals is good enough for Kansas and Memphis it should be good enough for SLU. BS has to work smarter and harder than the big boy's and as long as it is legal be creative THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. 5. INCREASE YOUR PROFILE. Spoon was awesome at this. Get involved in High profile City activities, adopt a charity, be a regular at the Cardinal games or on their broadcasts, get on a Rams broadcast. It is almost like running for an elective office. While all these are just suggestions they are just ways to keep Billiken Basketball front and center. This is the HC responsibility as the Ambassador of Billiken basketball. Many are counting on him to carry the Billiken torch. It is in his own best interest to be in the news outside of the Basketball season. I have heard BS on with Shannon and he does a nice job he just needs to do it more often. Yesterday was a great day for the Billikens because everyone was talking about the new Arena. I would suggest BS finds ways to make this the norm rather than the exception. By increasing the visibility of Billiken basketball and making it a frequent topic of conversation it will only pay huge dividends when recruiting the local athletes.

I never responded on this thread. Copy all rhe threads you like but quit making things up.

Quit making crap up.

Roy once again you have no clue what you are saying. When did I ever say the womans basketball coach was going anywhere? Hears what I will say I hope our boys recruiting is going as well as the girls.

A big stink has been made by the blue juice drinkers that we should not expect to beat out the Dukes, Kentucky's indiana's or Purdue and I added SIU last week to that pitcher of Kool-Aid. I guess it appears now we should add Miami of Ohio to the list of schools we should not expect our HC to be able out recruit. Girls seem to be the culprit this time. Dang those girls!!! As for as playing time for at the four position being the reason. I have never met a high school kid who didn't believe he could beat out any returning letterman. A quick glance at the Miami roster shows Mr McCombs committed knowing that there were #2 6'8" sophmores, 6'8" senior and a 6'9" senior on the current roster. But if the lack of playing time theory helps you rationalize losing a recruit to the Mid Con conference keep drinking the kool-aid. Bottom's up!

Now some of the Kool-Aid faithful are suggesting Tatum is a head case. Some of you guy's are hilarious. There is nothing wrong with Tatum other than the fact BS passed on him as well. I guess rather than blame the guy who retracted the offer let's just attack the kid's mental make-up. Pass some of the blue kool-aid please.

What's kind of amazing is I watched both Polk and Meyer in high school and I would have called them above average shooters. Maybe even a strength feature in their game. Now they appear to not be able to throw it into the ocean. What happens to a player to have such a change in ability? I too expect more of DB. My hope is that our HC allows him to play through some mistakes because in the long run I think he is our best option.

Roy, I am not a SIU fan. I am a Billiken season ticket holder. I am also a season ticket holder with higher expectations.

Why the bitterness. Is it my fault that housing is down 4.3%?

Attempts of comedy at a time of desparation illustrates one's ability to handle adversity. Running a little short on the Blue juice are we!!!

Not to bring up a sore subject but SIU's recruiting class is finished.

“You keep talking about the program Painter built at Purdue. I got news for you hardball, that program has been a top flight program for years. Painter has built crap. He has helped the program rebound in recruiting, which had slipped for a few years. That led to a few down years a Purdue. You can not compare the Purdue job to the SLU job.†Forget about Painter at Purdue how about Painter at SIU. He out-coached and out-recruited (Shaw) BS going head to head. Painter has built crap uhhh. I guess the two years forming good enough relationships to secure four Top 100 state recruits is nonsense. I guess we shouldn’t give Painter any credit for his SIU tenure as the lead recruiter under Weber. How did SIU do with Painter against SLU? Could BS ever get a Big Ten job? Painter did. Do we give him any credit for getting the Purdue job? Your right he hasn’t done anything worth mentioning “You can't even compare the SLU job to the Marquette job. Marquette’s program has been head and shoulders above SLU for the last thirty years. You act like Creen stepped in to a black hole. He didn't. It might have been thirty between final fours, but year in and year out they were a far better program than SLU.†SLU was in the same league as Marquette. Both are Catholic University’s located in a major US City. Both play in an off campus facility. Both are D1 basketball schools. Neither University has a football program. Your right SLU and Marquette have nothing in common but basketball. “If you want to look for programs to compare SLU with you need to start with Gonzaga and George Mason. But, you won't want to do that. You won't see the quick results you want to see. Those two programs stuck with coaches and stuck with systems. Thats not what you want to hear.†The coaches at Gonzaga have changed multiple times and the beat goes on. Gonzaga actually gets Top recruits, SLU does not. SLU staff counts evaluation periods while other programs form relationships and then count Top 100 recruits. You keep comparing SLU to Gonzaga heck SIU Carbondale has passed the Billikens. “Yow probably fired a coach (Grawer) she shouldn't have. She hired a coach (Spoon) that decided a couple years in that he really didn't want to recruit anymore and he resigned a couple years later cause he and the new AD didn't get along. Woolard hires a good coach (Romar) that leaves after three years after being hired cause we were a stepping stone for him.†Here is a question for you. If Yow were still the AD would BS still be the coach? Or better yet would he have been hired? Woolard was worthless but fostered the Mediocrity Philosophy. Bstl let me give you a clue; BS will be gone on the first bus if he gets a better offer. Therefore, if you understand that, does it not make sense to have the best coach you can knowing that if a bigger school comes along they are gone. What do you gain by the security of a guy that his ceiling is SLU? “Now we have a coach that wants to be here. Has everything been perfect, no. But, I think the overall plusses outweigh the minusses. Looking back at the last 15 years I think what this program needs most is some stability.†You can love BS for wanting to be here but shouldn’t we want more from a coach than a desire just to be here. Many coaches would be here for 500K a year. I really like my job, nice office, nice people, plenty of parking, close to a park but that doesn’t mean squat if I do not perform. Finally if stability is want you want you are set for life with BS. But I would rather continue to wish for Big Time success and someday we can be just like SIU.

Roy you are a real piece of work. How do you feel comfortable attacking a 20-year-old's academic credibility? Xavier Price did what he was supposed to do to be eligible to play at Purdue and that should be complemented not disparaged.

3Star it appears everytime another school get's it done in Roy's eyes they are cheaters,less than honorable people or a university willing to accept mediocrity. Roy seems to be Ok with just sitting back and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for BS to figure it out. Much has been said about Marquette's basketball program but they did not wait like Roy advocates. They set the bar high and they were rewarded. Now I guess Roy will be calling Crean an SOB cheater or challanging the school's integrity. I can't really buy into the fact that if your getting it done that you are a cheater or accepting less than normal academic standards. Your point about forming relationships is a good one. I struggle with the reality of Painter possessing the ability to form the type of relationships in two years that our guy has not been able to establish in 5+ (6 if you count his assisstant year). Even the most agrressive supporter of BS has to be a little perplexed by this situation.

Greece, First let me say that I have never said I did not like BS. My post is not meant to smear anyone just illustrate that it does not take 5+ years to build a D1 basketball program. I have questioned BS low scoring slow down game, his annual empty promises on employing a running game , game time adjustments and his recruiting mistakes that appear to be repeated on an regular basis. I am not asking us to beat out Duke, Kentucky, Florida, New York or California schools for recruits. I hold high expectations for the program where most provide excuses of low budgets, lack of national recognition and facilities. All of which can be said about SIU who has made the tournament the last several years. What has happened to the SLU faithful that feel comfortable watching SIU pass us by on a annual basis. This attitude never existed 5 years ago. As a matter of fact when Charlie was here they took our castaways (K. Williams). In my mind it all starts with recruiting or the ability to identify talent. Even the most ardent supporters of BS have to agree that he has made some questionable decisions. The question is how long to you give BS to figure it out? Many want more time, some think 5+ years and no NCAA Tournament appearances is enough. If you want to be a Bigtime program you have to have Bigtime expectations. You cannot want a Bigtime program and follow that up with low expectations. If you want to speak about recruiting locally he lost Stemler and Shaw. I hold BS accountable for these debacles and his seven evaluation excuse. Should SLU expect to get Stemler or Shaw? Would Painter have gotten Stemler or Shaw? Oh wait... Painter did get Shaw, my bad! Besides TL and KL (who I maintain were coming to SLU regardless) who has BS beat out in a recruiting battle? What player and what schools? Much has been said that Brad got TL and KL. Does anyone think if Romar was still here he would not have secured Tommie and Kevin? Of course Romar would have because Tommie and Kevin wanted to play for SLU not BS or Romar. I thank them regularly for their loyalty. Not only would we have had KL and TL we also would have had Hollins and Grimes. Romar missed on alot of recruits because he tried to recruit California for the Midwest. Painter is a Midwest guy and he recruits largely Midwest guys. BS has been a Midwest guy and he recruits Midwest guys yet he doesn't consistantly get Midwest guys. Bryant,Ian,IO and Drejia were not local yet they have carried the load of contribution since this regime has started. This cell phone thing is another smokescreen. BS makes big money and a $500 phone bill (assistants included) should not be an excuse for missing on players. But if BS wants to throw it out there and you guys buy it so be it. Anybody willing to answer the question yet? Or do you want to continue the whoa is me converstaion?

Didn't really think any of the Kool-aid drinkers would answer the Painter BS question. As ususal the apologists continue to claim we are not Indiana,Duke or Kentucky apparantly now we are not even Purdue. Pretty soon the blue drinkers will be running out of D1 schools. The suggestion that Purdue is in the Big Ten is a smokescreen position. If this is your position then I guess SLU should expect Northwestern to outrecruit us as well. I can't really understand why SLU with a Big Ten pedigree coach of 5+ years can't be at least as good or better than Purdue. I guess it is all about expecations and mine seem to be higher than most on the board. When Thad Motta was at Xavier he outrecruited and outplayed Purdue. Xavier is in the A10, right? How did he do it? Did the Xavier supporters lay down and cower to the whole Big Ten Argument like the Kool-Aid SLU faithful? The whole point of this article is that it does not take 5+ years to build a program and other non-Elite basketball schools get Top 100 recruits. Some even get four in a year. SLU should expect the same. The next round of blue juice is on me!

Purdue's Painter beating the recruiting odds August 8, 2006 Move over Roy Williams and Lute Olson. Every great coach out there has some new competition. The next great recruiting hotshot is emerging from a basketball-crazed state loaded with talent. Purdue coach Matt Painter reeled in four top-100 prospects from the class of 2007 in the last four weeks, all of which hail from Indiana. In the recruiting world, this is the equivalent of a miracle. Purdue is in the middle of one of the worst stretches in school history. The Boilermakers have won 16 games in the last two seasons. Just six of those have come against Big Ten teams. Painter's first season in West Lafayette was a disaster. There were losses to Evansville and Loyola-Chicago, an 0-2 record versus Northwestern and a pair of double-digit losses to Indiana. Still, Painter and his staff have Indiana's top players convinced that Purdue is the place to be. That feeling may spread outside the Hoosier state soon. Painter and assistant coach Cuonzo Martin, a key player during Purdue's glory days under Gene Keady in the mid-1990s, have put together a class around which they can build their program. Versatile guard E'Twaun Moore, who sits at No. 37 in Rivals.com's rankings, is a future star that can carry a team. At 6-foot-3, Moore has the size and speed to play a number of positions. He's a big-time scorer and one of the best defenders in the class. Soon after Moore committed, his AAU teammates, 6-8 small forwards Robbie Hummel (No. 62) and Scott Martin (No. 63), did the same. Hummel and Martin -- who play together at Valparaiso High -- are never going to be All-Americans, but they could both be great sidekicks. Both can handle the ball on the wing, shoot the mid-range jumper and have a good feel for the game. Six-foot-10 center JaJuan Johnson (No. 55) will be the big, defensive presence in the middle that every coach craves. Johnson is raw, but he is a great shot blocker with lots of upside. Collecting that foursome didn't come without some luck. Indiana's coaching switch and the NCAA sanctions placed on new coach Kelvin Sampson certainly helped (although Martin said he never seriously considered Indiana). But don't mistake this as the work of a one-year wonder. Everybody in the Big Ten wanted Moore. So did Georgia Tech's Paul Hewitt and Tennessee's Bruce Pearl, two of the hottest coaches on the recruiting trail. Interest in Martin and Hummel began to soar this summer, and they could have held out for more offers. Like those guys, I don't need to hold out for another season to realize that Painter is going to turn Purdue into a contender in the Big Ten again. You don't put together one of the nation's top recruiting classes at a program coming off back-to-back losing seasons without having something special. Just ask the last few coaches who went up against Painter in head-to-head recruiting battles. In the aftermath of the Stemler recruitment many posters scoffed at the notion that St. Louis University supporters should expect any Top 100 recruits. This article illustrates that Top 100 recruits are attainable and do not just go to the Duke's, Kansas's and Kentucky's of college basketball. Some say SLU should not expect to get any Top 100 recruits while other schools get four. IMO it all starts with the HC and his ability to convince recruits why his school is the best. Some coaches are obviously better than others at painting a successful picture. A couple of points in the article are relevent to our situation at SLU. First, Painter is in only his second year and is already producing BIG recruiting results. Secondly, Purdue like St. Louis University is not the states flagship University. Yet Painter is winning going head to head with his States giants. Can anyone really imagine the excitment that could be generated for the Billikens if we started to beat out Missouri for Top 100 recruits. Purdue has set their expectations high and it appears they are about to be rewarded bigtime. Do I dare ask the question who would you rather have Painter or BS?

Have BS give this guy a call. http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9596331

The rich get richer! Millard transfers to Creighton Jeff Goodman / FOXSports.com Posted: 2 hours ago Chad Millard is headed back to the Midwest. The 6-foot-8, 220-pound forward, who left the Louisville program after averaging 2.3 points and 1.4 rebounds this past season as a freshman, has decided to transfer to Creighton and play for Bluejays coach Dana Altman. "They've got a good program and it was the best visit I ever had," Millard said. "All my family is back in Nebraska and I really like the staff and the guys on the team." Millard played high school in New Hampshire. "I played with the guys and really enjoyed it," Millard said. "They set screens and passed the ball. It's real conducive to how I play." Millard also considered Northeastern and Vanderbilt after making the decision to leave Rick Pitino's program. Millard started three games and averaged 12.2 minutes per game in 32 contests a year ago despite battling various injuries. Jeff Goodman is a senior college basketball writer for FOXSports.com.

My whole point here is to say that finding a good shooting guard may be as hard as finding a good 4 in college basketball. However, 3Star your right about Reggie. He was definitely a shooting guard and a good one at that. Unfortunately his injuries keep him back a little his Senior year. As for KL I still think he is a better PG than SG. Part of the reason is that KL does so many more things than just shoot the basketball where Reggie was a pure SG and when he got hot look out. As for Clarke he was a bust either due to his lack of opportunity or evaluation by the staff.

Roy you have no clue what you are saying. If shooting guards are a dime a dozen how come BS has not signed one in his tenure at SLU? Not one! The only player who could possibble be considered a shooting guard is KL and I think his best position is PG. So where are the dime a dozen shooting guards you are referring to? And where can SLU get a couple?

"It takes more than athletes; it takes a system that enables players to score in transition" This is the problem I have with BS. He has never ever been part of a program that pushes the ball. I question whether he has the stomach to push the ball on a consistant basis. With running comes turnovers and questionable shot attempts. Both of these negatives BS has a hard time handling (see JJ,DC,DB). Why does anyone think he will start running now? If SLU is going to become a running team then Nark is right there has to be a system put in place. The phrase push the ball when we have the opportunity is nonsense. Teams that are committed to the run are responsible for forcing the tempo every game. This is the only way many of our players will be effective. If we see the pack defense again we can kiss our running game good-bye.