Quality Is Job 1

>thicks, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't know what qualifies >as "admissable evidence". I will leave that question up Nark >or BillikenLaw. You may be joking, but I'll respond as if you're not. This is the court of public opinion, so you don't have to be a lawyer to decide whether or not you will accept "evidence." >Looking back over this thread I didn't see where anyone >called Grawer a saint or Melvin a villian. I'm puzzled by >your wording! tseugnekillib, you said, "thicks, it is unfortunate that Melvin feels the way he does about Rich Grawer and some SLU fans. Life is too short!" Later, you said, "On certain days I have the occasion to remember one of my favorite Proverbs...somewhere in Chapter 18....goes like this....'Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight' (or something like that)." Roy said, "i find it hard to believe that coach grawer ever asked melvin to do anything that wasnt in the best interests of melvin long term. if melvin couldnt see that, i am sorry. grawer seems to be as good of a person as it gets." To me it seems that both of you are taking Grawer's side and questioning Robinson's feelings. That's why I responded by telling Melvin's side of the story in more detail. For the record, the Living Bible paraphrases Prov. 18:17 as, "Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight." (KJV: "He that is first in his own cause seems just, but his neighbor comes and searches him." NIV: "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.") As far as I'm concerned, the story of Grawer and many SLU fans who hold a grudge against Robinson is "first," and I'm presenting Melvin's side of the story to set the record straight. However, nothing I'm saying is intended to make Grawer out to be a bad man. I'm just saying that any SLU fans who are making Melvin feel uncomfortable whenever he makes an appearance on campus should stop because his reasons for transferring out seem reasonable. Shoot, there are some SLU fans who make Grawer feel uncomfortable whenever SLU comes up as a topic of conversation because he was fired for "running players away," but what I've said is that Grawer's philosophy of teaching/coaching didn't mesh with the players he had to work with but he was unwilling to change it. I don't feel I'm blasting him by saying that. It's just that he didn't find his niche in coaching at SLU, though other coaches with similar teaching styles HAVE found their niches (Bob Knight at Texas Tech; John Chaney at Temple; probably a number of others I don't know about). It has been, and still is, my opinion that Rich Grawer was a good coach who should still be in coaching, but Rich said he's more comfortable not being in coaching. I hope that I'm able to express different sides of a story without letting too many of my personal feelings intrude. >With eight members of my extended family being teachers, >including one living in my home, I wish you good luck in >that very important and valuable profession. Thank you. I sincerely appreciate that. >Hopefully in the future, if two of your students get into a >scuffle when your back is turned, that you will get both >sides of the story before handing out disciplinary measures. I'm going to be a high-school teacher. If two students are involved in a fight and I don't see how it happened, both students get referred to their principal's office and the principal will decide on the disciplinary action. I get your point, though, and will say that I believe I have been and will be fair to all involved. Sometimes, though, a teacher must act first and ask questions later. That may mean that while one student gets in trouble immediately, the other student gets in trouble after the teacher has had time to investigate and ask questions of both parties.

The way I see it, there are four players who are a lock to start: Josh Fisher Chris Sloan Reggie Bryant Tom Frericks The fifth starting spot will be between Brandon Morris and Izik Ohanon. If Morris comes in and runs the point the way Brad Soderberg envisions, he'll start at the point. This is what I believe will happen. If Morris isn't steady enough, then Fisher will play the point and Ohanon will start. Regardless of who starts, the aforementioned six players plus Anthony Drejaj and one other big (either Justin Johnson or Ian Vouyoukas) will make up the primary eight-man rotation against the best teams on SLU's schedule. Frericks may have to play heavy minutes if Vouyoukas isn't ready to be part of the rotation, because while Johnson can fill in as a four, I don't think he can defend the center of most teams. In some cases, Ohanon may have to play the center on defense if Vouyoukas isn't ready. Against lesser teams, Darren Clarke and whoever is the odd man out between Johnson and Vouyoukas will see more than token minutes. Of course, I just realized that this whole "analysis" is omitting Floyd McClain, whom I have said I think will play, because I can't envision yet how he'll fit into the rotation. I think Coach Soderberg has a nice problem: how to fit as many as 11 players who could contribute into an eight- or nine-man rotation. Players will have to be on their toes, because during any given game, if they're not on, they could see themselves out of the rotation and look at the box score and see that they played just three minutes.

I believe the top scorers will be, in some sequence: Reggie Bryant Josh Fisher Chris Sloan Izik Ohanon Tom Frericks Bryant will probably be the team-high scorer. I believe that three of the five will average double figures and the other other two will average between eight and ten. Fisher deferred to Marque Perry for the last two seasons, but I think he's ready to step up and be a leader. He will probably duplicate his position as the second-leading scorer (8.2 ppg last year). He may have a few off nights here and there, but hopefully those will be the occasions that Anthony Drejaj or Brandon Morris will step up and replace his scoring. It has been a while since the Bills have been this deep, athletic, and versatile in the backcourt.

That, along with the "college experience" some posters discussed a couple of weeks ago, may explain why SLU has a little trouble attracting the top-notch area players who have the stars in their eyes. As SLU fans, we always say, "Wouldn't it be great, you'll be the heroes in your own town," but many young men think that they want to go off on an odyssey and come home heroes. Brad Soderberg is probably going to have to focus on players whose make-up compels them to stay at home with familiar things and people and on players from not-too-far away places who want to get away from home and think of SLU as a good place to have their "odyssey" to take back home. In other words, unless SLU becomes one of the nation's best programs, many of the Metro area's young men won't dream of playing at SLU and SLU won't get all of the best local talent. Thanks for the report, Nate.

You'll just have to take my word for it (I have no reason to lie). McClain did miss a couple of threes, so he missed more than he made. Keep in mind that he did hit a couple of threes as a freshman. I'm not saying McClain will be great, but he looked good yesterday and I believe he'll get some clock.

...to get the best talent if you can't keep those players around and find a way to motivate them to play well without alienating them? Also, if Grawer brought in the best talent, it doesn't show in the Bills' NCAA Tournament appearance ledger. Look, I've met Rich Grawer, and I don't have anything against him. But apparently, his philosophy of teaching/coaching didn't mesh with the learning styles of the players he was working with. As a future teacher, myself, I'm going to have to be very cognizant of the learning styles of my students and what motivates them and adjust my teaching style to suit them, unless I want to flunk a lot of students, which would anger my principal (boss) and probably cost me my job. But I'm a teacher, not a flunker. The reason Grawer isn't coaching at all anymore is probably that he realized that his style wasn't working but he wasn't willing to change. I have no problem with that. I asked him why he didn't go back into coaching, and he told me that he didn't want to go back into coaching and that he was happy doing what he was doing (he's the athletic director at Clayton High School).

Why is Rich Grawer portrayed as such a saint while Melvin Robinson is villianized? Melvin said that Grawer was a very caustic person who would talk about players and their mothers, making snide comments like (an example by me, not a direct quote), "Your mama could rebound better than you!" Grawer, based on Melvin's description, strikes me as a taskmaster/drill sargeant type of the same mold that made Norm Stewart and Bob Knight. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, good or bad, but it is a personality style that doesn't suit everyone. Melvin told me that the last straw was when he was sick and the doctor had even told Grawer (in a conference including Melvin and his Mom) that Robinson should sit out practice for a day or two. Well, it so happened that when practice came around, Grawer made Melvin suit up and take part in the opening suicide. He couldn't get through it fast enough in his condition (sick), so Grawer put the team through it again. Sick (literally), tired, and fed up, Melvin said what was on his mind (though he can't remember what he said), and quit. Grawer apparently rubbed other players the wrong way a few times too many. Carlos Skinner and McGlother Irvin also left that season. Were they all in the wrong? Melvin said that Skinner had been contemplating leaving even before he decided himself to leave and it was because of Grawer's ways. According to Melvin, Grawer didn't know how to interact with African American young men from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Melvin also said that he knew Grawer would be toast after that season even before he left. He said that Debbie Yow tried to persuade him to stay. I guess for a young man living in the moment, it was too hard for him to get through three more months of that man. I suppose some of the people I'm responding to in this part of the thread may have been being sarcastic and/or wanted to hear the story rather than accept my generalizations. Well, there it is.

I can guarantee that Carl is not Triangle and Too, willie. I hope you're just making a joke. First of all, Tri claimed to have attended Arizona; Carl attended SLU. The guy bleeds, eats, drinks, sleeps, and breathes Saint Louis U. This is the kind of thing that pushes Carl's buttons, though. The first part of our conversation was about how incensed he was that, as someone told him, some negative statement about a Billiken and his name were connected on some message board. He said that he's not into computers and doesn't even have an e-mail address, so there's no way it could be him. He also talked about how it's wrong for a poster to make statements and attribute it to someone else. It was obviously a sore spot for him.

Floyd looks healthy, but I can't say he's in playing shape. He didn't wow me with athleticism, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. He just didn't really have the opportunity. I can't comment on the form of his shot, but he did miss a few and hit a few (including a three-pointer). I believe he'll play and contribute.

Nowhere did I say that Reggie Bryant held his own against Justin Love yesterday. I said that Love dominated, to my chagrin. Really, there was no one there yesterday who was as spectacular as Love. What I said is that Reggie Bryant will be a force for SLU this year, but not on Justin Love's level. I'm not saying whether you should change your view on whether or not Bryant will "be the man" for SLU just yet, but what I am saying is that I believe he will lead the Billikens in scoring, whether his points-per-game average is 13, 15, 18, or 20. I suspect it will be on the lower end, not the higher end.

I think I got there between 4:15 and 4:30, and they had yet to organize play. I think they started in the neigborhood of 5 p.m. (give or take five to ten minutes). As I'm not a SLU student, alumnus, or rec center member, I'm happy that they listened to my request and let me in without making me buy a daily guest pass. Maybe it helped that I had on a Billikens hat. I don't know if they'd let 15 to 20 people do it, but I'm sure they understand that it's only because the Bauman-Eberhardt (did I spell that right? Heck with it: West PIne!) is closed, and they don't hassle the public about admittance there.

You'll notice that the friend or family member of Blake Ahearn that called him/herself "butter33" (formerly "pistol") hasn't logged in since July 3. These were his/her last words: http://207.36.130.25/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...ewmode=threaded If a person were really a SLU fan, I think they would've visted the board in the last 11 days and would've discussed something other than one player who's not going to SLU.

I went on the SLU campus today to watch pickup action among eight current or incoming Billikens, two former Billikens, and a few others, including some non-coach athletic department staffers. First of all, I met a couple of staunch Billikens fans. First I met fellow poster bart (holla back, bart! -- it was good to meet you). Then I met Carl Eisert. I'm sure some of you SLU alumni and boosters (and other posters) know him. Who and/or what doesn't this guy know? The guy talked my ear off and I could hardly concentrate on the action! Bart told me that the guy is a walking historian of Billikens sports. Everyone -- EVERYONE -- who walked by knew Mr. Eisert. He's not into computers and message boards, so he's most likely not reading this (but I know stuff gets to him, anyway), but I'm going to say this, anyway. Carl, it was good to meet you and talk hoops with you. Now, about the games! There isn't much I can really tell you about some pickup action other than general observations -- that may not be newsflashes. First of all the former Bills that "suited up" today were Dave Fergerson and Justin Love. Ferg played ball in Norway and Love in China(!) In my opinion, Ferg and Love dominated the play (to my chagrin), and the only one of the current Billikens who seemed to be able to play with them was Josh Fisher (all three were always on the same team, and I don't think they ever lost). The other seven current Billikens were Reggie Bryant, Anthony Drejaj, Tom Frericks, Bryce Husak (left early), Justin Johnson, Floyd McClain, and Izik Ohanon. Darren Clarke wasn't there. Bryce, Darren's roommate, told me that Darren has a sty in his eye and can't see. I don't know how long Capital D will be out of action. I told Bryce to tell Darren I say his nickname is "Capital D." Chris Sloan wasn't there and has rarely been at the scrimmages. The talk is that he has an internship that keeps him away. Ross Varner and Phillip Hunt were the other missing Billikens (Ian Vouyoukas is in Thessaloniki, as you know, and Brandon Morris is finishing up juco). Don't take too long to read this segment! Fish takes the ball to the hole with authority, and he pushes the ball up the floor.... It was good to see McClain in action. He looks good, is apparently finally healthy with no lingering nagging injuries, and I expect him to play and contribute this year.... Bryant will be a force -- not on Love's level, but still a force.... Izik still has trouble finishing in traffic, but if he gets a clear path to the hoop, look out!... JJ doesn't seem to be focused out there in unstructured scrimmages. Carl told me he performs better with a coach "motivating" him.... Frericks can score better than Kenny Brown. He didn't play that long today -- he's nursing an ankle injury he suffered in scrimmage Thursday.... AD is going to be pushed if he wants to play as much this year as last year.... I saw nothing to make me change my mind about Husak's readiness to play On my way out, I encountered Melvin Robinson and had a good, long conversation with him. He lamented that many people around Saint Louis University (fans) treat him with much malice after all these years. Some even load the woes of the entire program on his shoulders (according to him). If anyone out there reading this still harbors a grudge against the Big Chill, please LET IT GO! People shouldn't be giving Melvin such grief when they see him these days. He left the program 12 years ago -- it's history. He was a young man whose coach was making him miserable, and he decided he had to leave. I can't blame him for that. When I was around that age, I transferred away from one college (Lake Forest) to UMSL (back home) because I felt uncomfortable, and I endured a lot less (I guess) than Melvin did. Based on what Melvin told me, Rich Grawer was no saint in the whole ordeal. I won't retell Melvin's "last straw" story now, but I will say that if it had been me, I would have left, too. Melvin's son, Damien Smith-Robinson, is 11 years old and is 6-3 already. Melvin said he wears a size 17 shoe, and the doctors expect the young man to grow to around or over seven feet and wear a size 21 shoe! Melvin said his son currently says he wants to go to SLU like his dad did. He thinks Damien will consider going straight to the NBA out of high school, but he's going to encourage him to go to college. If the young man does decide to go to college and attend SLU, that would be great (in my opinion -- some people might still harbor hard feelings towards Melvin then), but that's seven or eight years down the road.

Bryce Husak is 7-1, and Ian Vouyoukas is a legitimate 6-11 (I believe Coach Brad Soderberg said that before). Though the SLU roster lists Vouyoukas at 6-10, his Greek team roster lists him at 211 cm, which converts to 83 inches -- one inch short of seven feet. Maybe they're taking an inch away from Vouyoukas and giving it to Darren Clarke, who's 6-3, though the roster lists him as 6-4.

...I would lower my expectations of Ian Vouyoukas, if I were you. I don't think he'll do anything more this year than mimic the numbers Chris Braun gave us last year. Yes, Vouyoukas is behind NBA draft pick Sofoklis Schortsanitis, but Schortsanitis isn't even the best player on the Hellenic team: Costas Vassiliadis is (not only do the stats bear that out, but Sofoklis, himself, said that). I also disagree with your comparison of the play at the Junior World Championships to the competition of the upper tier of Conference USA (I said upper tier, not the conference as a whole). The talent of a few of the Junior World teams is awesome, but more than half of the teams are significantly inferior to the best teams in the tournament. Second, the players in Conference USA are two to three years older than the players in the Junior Worlds. The experience and strength make the competition higher, even if the raw talent is somewhat lower. The fact that Vouyoukas is on his country's team and is seeing at least a little playing time (he scored two points and grabbed four rebounds in four minutes today -- his rebounds per minute easily makes him a superior rebounder to Braun) is good, but I don't think that alone indicates he'll have much impact at the Div. I level this year. Now Missouri recruit, Linas Kleiza, who's tearing up the competition at the tournament, is a lock to be an impact player from Day 1 at Missouri. Lastly, again, I'm not saying that Vouyoukas will never be an impact player for the Billikens; I'm just saying that he won't do a whole lot THIS year.

Don't laugh. Darren Clarke's initials are D.C. D.C. is the capital of our country. That's easy enough, so follow me here. Clarke's nickname should be "Capital D." 1. Clarke's first name starts with a capital D. 2. By the time Clarke leaves SLU, we want him to be a top-notch player. 3. We want him to play "capital D" -- that is, top-notch defense. Darren, I'm not going to call you D.C., because that's too easy. Instead, I'm calling you, "Capital D."

I'm not giving up on Ian Vouyoukas. I'm just saying that I'm expecting much from him as a freshman. He's not going to come in and tear up Conference USA. I believe the talent level at the Junior Worlds is comparable to the talent level of the upper-tier C-USA teams, but the experience of the players in C-USA will make the competition of the conference tougher than the competition of the Junior Worlds. So far Vouyoukas's impact has been lessened by the presence of a more talented player on his team. I believe Vouyoukas will be a good player for the Billikens, but he'll take his lumps this year.

"If realignment occurs, we may wind up with something where people sitting around the table may look more alike than they do in some leagues as they are today."

Please continue to keep us apprised of what's going on in high school and AAU ball. We can never have too many "scouts."

I heard the entire interview, also. Like Billikenbooster said, nothing new to the members of this cyber community (however, many listeners were being exposed to the SLU side of the story for the first time). I didn't find it particularly reassuring. Basically, it seems that SLU (and all of Conference USA, really, is just along for the ride until the Big East decides what it wants to do. I don't feel overly threatened, either. I recorded the interview (it began at 11:39 and ended around 11:50), and I'm going to inquire with KMOX if I can make it available to the Billikens.com community.

(bump)

http://www.fiba.com (easier to read than the other site {http://www.basket.gr/wcj2003/index.asp }, in my opinion, but I got information for this post from both sites) Ian Vouyoukas scored 3 pts (1 of 5 from the field and 1 of 2 from the line), grabbed 5 rebounds (4 offensive), had 1 assist, picked up 2 fouls, and blocked 1 shot in 12 minutes. Greece defeated Iran 103-56 to finish the preliminary round pool 3-0. Greece advances to Group F for the next round of pool play, where it will face Turkey (A2), Slovenia (C2), and Croatia (D1). The United States won all three of its preliminary pool games (just squeaking by Slovenia 84-83 today) and advances to Group E for the next round where it will face Austrailia (A1), Puerto Rico (B2), and Lithuania (D2). The teams that finished third and fourth in the preliminary pools will compose Group G and Group H -- the consolation groups. In 9.3 minutes per game, Vouyoukas is averaging 2.0 ppg and 4.0 rpg. He's shooting 28.6 percent from the field and 33.3 percent from the free throw line. Based on these numbers, I don't expect much from him during his freshman year this season. Then again, he's just replacing the injury-hampered Chris Braun.

>my problem is that we dropped siu and added another slug >game. > >i admit we have always had these games. but i have always >been an advocate not to play them and now that we are >dumping siu in order to have an additional one it really >p!sses me off. I think we should find out why SLU didn't schedule SIU before making accusations that SLU is ducking the Salukis. I sent Ron Jacober a request in e-mail that he ask Doug Woolard why SLU didn't schedule SIU when he has him on the show tomorrow (and when the rivalry will resume). Roy, you act like scheduling is something that comes easily and that every team SLU calls should be happy to open up a slot for the Billikens. Perhaps SIU decided not to schedule SLU this year. They have a new coach who may have a different scheduling philosophy; perhaps he wants to take the team to play a "guarantee" game against Kentucky in the slot SLU offered or they're going to be in an exempt tourney during the slot SLU had open for them.

To wit: NEW CONFERENCE (Football & Basketball) • Syracuse • Boston College • Rutgers • West Virginia • Pittsburgh • Connecticut • Cincinnati • Louisville • Notre Dame* * Basketball-only member NEW BIG EAST (Basketball only) • Georgetown • Providence • St. John's • Villanova • Seton Hall • Marquette* • Xavier* • Dayton* • DePaul* • Saint Louis/Charlotte* *New member ----------------------------------------------------------- That looks great for SLU, unless the Big East decides to go with 10 teams and chooses Charlotte over SLU (which might make geographical sense). My hope is that they decide on 12 teams, keeping all of the above 11 and adding one team. One of the issues is Notre Dame's proposed decision to go with the football playing schools (but if they aligned with the non-football schools, the new Big East could retain its automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament; the new all-sports conference would have to wait some years, anyway). The next question is what happens to the Conference USA schools left out in the cold? •Memphis •UAB •East Carolina •South Florida •Southern Miss •Tulane •Houston •TCU Could they survive as an eight-team all-sports conference, or would they prefer to disband and join other conferences (Sun Belt, WAC, Mountain West)? It's already bordering on mid-major, but they could add teams like Central Florida and Marshall. I feel really bad for Memphis in this scenario. I doubt the ACC would invite Memphis over South Carolina and Kentucky. If the SEC loses a team, would they welcome Memphis (probably over Tennessee's dead body!)? Could Memphis be the new Big East's 12th team if they play football in another conference? Houston and TCU (and maybe Tulane) might feel better in the WAC or MWC. I believe the Atlantic 10 would survive even losing Xavier and Dayton, though it would slip closer to being a mid-major caliber conference. Again, I wish we knew how involved SLU is in all the discussion. They should not cease to toot their horn about what they would bring to the table. I really hope Father Biondi and Doug Woolard are being very vocal among the other schools and are not just along for the ride. My thought is that if SLU gets left out of the new Big East, then it HAS to look to the Mountain West or Western Athletic (WAC). The current memberships of those conferences are: WESTERN ATHLETIC •Boise State •Fresno State •Hawaii •Louisiana Tech •Nevada •Rice •San Jose State •SMU •Tulsa •UTEP MOUNTAIN WEST •Air Force •BYU •Colorado State •New Mexico •San Diego St. •UNLV •Utah •Wyoming Neither league is a great option for SLU, especially considering travel, but they may be more appealing options than the Missouri Valley or the Horizon. The MVC might not even want SLU, considering its conference tournament is played on what is currently SLU's home court. The Valley might figure they'd never be able to send amother team to the NCAA Tournament except for their occasional at-large bid. I'm sorry to keep going on and on about this, folks, but I can't get it out of my head. I hope the resolutions are announced before this October so that I'll be able to enjoy the basketball season without this issue.

>Thicks, you are knowledgeable about RPI, no doubt. >Understand something about human nature though. Expressing >an opinion about not liking that we play 4 cupcakes means >simply that. Everybody plays tuneups, granted, but some of >us think 4 is excessive. Second, as stated in your >analysis, RPI rank is a derivative measure of raw RPI, it >(RPI rank) is not irrevelant as you imply. Further, we >realize from your wonderful analysis (which you also posted >on the board last year and we all appreciated it then as >well) that even raw RPI of opponents is not factored into a >team's own RPI ... but raw RPI of an opponent is composed of >two of the three factors that are included in our RPI !!! >(i.e., 50 percent opponents' winning percentage, and 25 >percent opponents' oppontents' winning percentage). An >opponent with a low RPI is highly likely to have a low >winning percentage and / or its opponets have a low winning >percentage. Playing bad teams only helps with 25 percent of >the RPI factor (i.e., your own winning percentage) but most >likely hurts 75 percent of the RPI factor (i.e., opponents >winning percentage and opponents opponents winning >percentage). > >Everybody has an opinion and we are hear to express it. You >are definitely more of a mathemetician that I ... but the >logic of the previous post was off IMHO. My first point is that how are we to know before the season that all four of SLU's alleged cupcakes won't have a very good winning percentage? Last year's ranking means nothing for this year. The number don't carry over. What I'm saying is that instead of having a hard and fast rule that SLU should not schedule any team from a low-level conference, the rule should be that SLU schedule only teams projected (an imperfect science) to win its conference, if it's not in a high-major conference. If SLU schedules such teams, it will wind up with an attractive RPI ranking because those opponents will wind up with decent RPI rankings. Second, you inferred incorrectly that the RPI ranking is a measure. The ranking doesn't MEASURE anything. All the ranking does is tell where a team stands in the RPI relative to the other teams. If the ranking were a measure, then one could be sure that the difference between the number 10 RPI ranked team and the number 20 RPI ranked team is exactly the same as the difference between the number 210 RPI ranked team and the number 220 RPI ranked team. But that's not the case. Nos. 210 and 220 could be virtually tied, while nos. 10 and 20 could be separated by 0.01, a significant difference. The ranking is not a measure because the differences are not equidistant. Here's a different perspective. Let's compare 10 home-run hitters. The guy in first place has hit 30 home runs, while the guy in 10th place has his 24 home runs. The difference between No. 1 and No. 10 is not nine. It's six. Rather than judge the guy on his ranking, you judge him by the number of home runs he's hit. Lastly, don't fool yourself. I'm no mathemetician.