Quality Is Job 1

I agree completely. I believe SLU should go after Matt Shaw hard (even though I haven't seen him play, myself). First of all, Shaw is probably a swing forward. He would be able to play three or four. He would enable the Bills to play big or small, depending on the situation. SLU has had success in the past with big men shorter than Shaw, so what's the problem? Besides that, 7-1 Bryce Husak would be in the same class as Shaw and 6-11 Ian Vouyoukas and 6-8 Justin Johnson would be one year ahead of him. Shaw is all of one inch shorter than Justin Tatum was. Jeff Harris, at 6-5, was an inch shorter than Shaw is, and he's probably the best power forward SLU has had since Anthony Bonner.

Of course not. You're Mr. Super Billiken Defender, equipped with Billiken-blue vision! (I love you Roy!)

I'm of the opinion that Kelly Thames was snubbed from being a McDonald's All-American. I saw him play in high school, and I believe he was every bit as good as any McDonald's All-American. Let's face it, that "team" is based more on politics than on talent. Oh, they're all very talented players -- don't get me wrong --- but sometimes they leave off deserving players for players who are not as deserving (like when Ryan Robinson was a McDonald's All-American because the game would be played in St. Louis that year). Also, even if he's career wasn't great, Julian Winfield, a member of the 1994 Missouri team in question, WAS a highly-recruited athlete. He just chose SLU over Kansas coming out of high school (mostly because his dad, Lee, had been a long-time assistant coach under Rich Grawer). When Grawer was fired, Julian transferred to Kansas, but then Norm Stewart made the shrewd move of hiring Lee Winfield and the Winfield family decided that rather than compete against each other, Julian should play at Missouri. Stewart did get a lot out of that 1994 Tigers team, but it's not like it didn't have some talented players. Melvin Booker was second-team All-America that year; Paul O'Liney was an excellent scorer; Jevon Crudup was a solid big man and a second-round NBA draft pick; Thames was headed for big things if he didn't hurt his knee.

I doubted what cheeseman said about Mizzou players going back to Columbia, but I didn't have any evidence. You supplied it. You do understand, of course, that to most of the posters here, SLU is "heaven" and Mizzou is "hell." Nothing you've said will change their minds.

...didn't I say I hoped you were making a joke? I still wanted to tell Carl's story for the benefit of other readers who aren't privvy to the joke.

Thanks for weighing in kwyjibo. I find your comments enlightening, but I don't know if I can accept your claim that Grawer was a poor game tactician. I base that on the record of his 1988-89 and 1989-90 teams that won a lot of games and finished second in the NIT two consecutive years, even though I do question the fact that those teams weren't able to do what it took to get to the NCAA Tournament. Are you saying that the records those two years were much more the result of talent than good game strategy? If so, I guess I can accept that, but it might take me a while to agree.

I'm not trying to make Melvin Robinson out to be a saint, either, and I'm not saying that he doesn't shoulder some of the "blame" for his experiences at SLU. All I'm doing is telling Melvin's story and suggesting that those fanatical fans who make it miserable for him to show his face on campus ease up a bit.

>thicks it was always my understanding (and i heard this >straight from a former billiken that played with melvin) >that melvin was "sick" a lot at practice. ever hear the boy >called wolf story? I wasn't aware of that aspect. I would have to speak to Melvin again to address that issue and gauge what impact that might have had on Melvin's "last straw" story. What also comes into play is whether or not the doctor's advice was always present. If that advice was just that one time, then I would have to question a coach's decision to ignore the advice, even if the player had feigned being sick in order to lollygag in practice many other occasions. >second, if rich was such a bad guy, surely melvin had seen >the light well enough that his next stop would have been the >place to blossum? i dont recall life being any better for >him at arizona state. Let me make it clear that I don't think Rich Grawer is a bad guy. Neither did Melvin say anything negative about Grawer other than relay the experiences he had with him. I do think, based on the second- and third-hand information that I have, that Grawer may have been from the Bob Knight school of caring. For him, it took an in-your-face, relentless, drill-sargeant style of coaching to make men of his players. Some people can accept and thrive under that style of leadership, and some can't. These days, more can't than can. I asked Melvin about his decision to declare for the draft and not play his last half-year at Arizona State. I believe he second guesses the decision, but what it comes down to is that he got bad advice about where he would go in the draft and he felt depressed at Arizona State. He told me that he was going to transfer to Missouri at first but then decided he wanted to get as far away as possible. I suspect it was an impulsive decision that wasn't well thought out.

>you are correct that the player that left has every right to >do so. but that doesnt give that player the right to be >treated like a returning hero. > >the point is my >heros are billikens. not those that turned their backs on >the billikens. they wanted to leave, good riddance. I understand what you're saying. But what I was saying is that some young men want to go off and make their names and return like heroes. Just because that's what's in their minds doesn't mean it's what will happen. Secondly, if they don't think highly enough of SLU to feel compelled to play there, they certainly don't care that SLU and SLU fans won't recognize them when they come for their "heroes welcome." As far as they're concerned, St. Louis is much bigger than Saint Louis University and they can get plenty of love from their families, friends, and folks like the Missouri Athletics Club (or whatever it's called). Billikens fans must face the fact that St. Louis doesn't equal Saint Louis (University). Sure, we wish it would (from a basketball standpoint -- how many times have I cried for SLU to strive to be the CAPITAL OF ST. LOUIS AREA BASKETBALL), but right now it doesn't.

The guy's take on SLU got under my skin so much, I fired off an e-letter to him: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] From: Terrance Hicks Subject: "Making sense of the conference mess" column Lonnie, Thanks a lot for caring about the Saint Louis University program and its fans. By "sending" it to the mid-major Missouri Valley Conference, you are basically destroying our hopes of rising in prominence and becoming a top 50 program. For more than 15 years SLU has been in the same conference with your Cincinnati Bearcats or your Xavier Musketeers. Why, all of a sudden, is SLU a good fit with the Missouri Valley, which never gets more than two teams into the NCAA Tournament and usually gets only one? I guess you're still mad that Kenyon Martin broke his leg in the C-USA Tourney game against SLU in 2000. Well, it's not rational to blame SLU for that. You hit the nail on the head at the end of your column when you said, "Which, of course, means squat." Then again, I thought most of your ideas for realignment were good, except for putting SLU in the Missouri Valley and putting Marshall in the conference of Big East defectors over Connecticut (what happens to the Huskies in your perfect realignment, anyway -- they disappear into oblivion?). Terrance Hicks St. Louis, Missouri

If I see a basketball player, whether he went to SLU, Mizzou, or anywhere else, I treat him like a person. I ask him how he's doing, what he's up to, etc. I might discuss with him why he chose to go where he did, but I'n not going to hold a grudge over his head. As far as I'm concerned, we're neighbor who share roots in St. Louis. I went away to college (at first), and so did most of the people I went to high school with (of those that went to college). When we meet around town or at reunions or games, we don't get mad because we didn't all go to SLU, Wash U., Fontbonne, etc. Where does it say that Saint Louis University can educate only St. Louisans and all St. Louisans must go to SLU? That's the logic you're espousing. Let me be very clear. If SLU had to limit itself to St. Louis area basketball players, it would have to drop to Div. III. There aren't enough high-quality players (especially among centers and forwards) in St. Louis each year for SLU to field a Div. I program. On the flip side, SLU doesn't have enough scholarships to offer every player who aspires to play Div. I ball in St. Louis. The bottom line is that SLU must get some players from elsewhere and some area players have to go elsewhere. I'm not saying that SLU should be honoring non-alumni area players at their games, but you seem to be making the ridiculous suggestion that SLU is the only place to encounter an area product.

>I don't know how Melvin thinks he takes the brunt of >criticism for SLU's predicament. I don't blame him for >anything. Grawer was on his way out whether Melvin stayed >or left. If Melvin was uncomfortable with rich so be it, >but you can't just coddle certain players like that. Melvin >wanted special treatment, he wasn't going to get it from >Rich and he did not get it anywhere else either. Anecdotal evidence -- all ways around. Of course you don't blame Melvin for anything, but that doesn't mean there aren't others who do. Melvin feels that there are some fanatical supporters of SLU who give him a hard time whenever he shows up on campus. Who are we to argue with his perceptions? Second, going back to Melvin's "last straw" example. If the doctor says the player is sick and should sit out a practice or two, how is it "coddling" the player to let him rest, just shooting free throws on the side for one session? There's a difference between "not coddling" and being an out-and-out jerk. >More than anything I feel sorry for Melvin. He had a ton of >natural talent, he could have had quite a pro career with a >little more work. There is no doubt in my mind that if >Melvin would have stayed with SLU he would have been a first >round pick. Melvin did not want to work though, he listened >to the wrong people namely Floyd Irons, the coach Arizona St >and the group around him. They never looked out for his >best interests and he suffered because of it. I can't really respond to that commentary. I will say, though, that I get the sense that Melvin questions some of the decisions he made back then. But hindsight is 20/20 and people in their early 20s don't always make the best decisions. Also, based on your later commentary, I don't think you really feel sorry for the man at all; rather, you feel sorry that you missed out on seeing what you expected from him as a ballplayer. The thing is, he didn't really want to play basketball and started only because his mother really wanted him to. It wasn't until he got to SLU and started doing well that he developed some self-confidence and began to enjoy playing the game. >Look Melvin is what in his early 30s. What is he doing now? > Did he say what his profession was. I doubt if he is >playing pro ball anymore. Melvin is 33, and he plays professional basketball overseas. >He and the people around him >ruined any chance of him being successful at bball. Not only is he in professional ball overseas, but he also played as a backup for the Milwaukee Bucks for three years. >If he >would have sucked it up and stayed at SLU and ignored the >leeches around him he would be a backup in the league right >now Melvin admitted that much during our conversation. >instead of giving some woe is me routine to a total >stranger at a billiken scrimmage. That is a biased and incorrect characterization of the nature of the conversation. >Finally as is typical Melvin only thinks of himself. SlU >ruined him, Rich was too tough on him. He has been told his >whole life that it was everybody elses fault. I hope he >figures out one day what personal responsibilty means. Now you're putting words in the man's mouth, and you weren't even there to hear what he said. And I can't figure out how you got that out of my narration! Also, I think Melvin thinks of his son a lot and doesn't just think of himself. Another thing: I guess Rich Grawer had Melvin's best interests in mind and wasn't thinking of himself at all when he ignored a doctor's advice and pushed Melvin when he was too sick to go and then insulted him as if he were a red-headed step-child.

>thicks, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't know what qualifies >as "admissable evidence". I will leave that question up Nark >or BillikenLaw. You may be joking, but I'll respond as if you're not. This is the court of public opinion, so you don't have to be a lawyer to decide whether or not you will accept "evidence." >Looking back over this thread I didn't see where anyone >called Grawer a saint or Melvin a villian. I'm puzzled by >your wording! tseugnekillib, you said, "thicks, it is unfortunate that Melvin feels the way he does about Rich Grawer and some SLU fans. Life is too short!" Later, you said, "On certain days I have the occasion to remember one of my favorite Proverbs...somewhere in Chapter 18....goes like this....'Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight' (or something like that)." Roy said, "i find it hard to believe that coach grawer ever asked melvin to do anything that wasnt in the best interests of melvin long term. if melvin couldnt see that, i am sorry. grawer seems to be as good of a person as it gets." To me it seems that both of you are taking Grawer's side and questioning Robinson's feelings. That's why I responded by telling Melvin's side of the story in more detail. For the record, the Living Bible paraphrases Prov. 18:17 as, "Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight." (KJV: "He that is first in his own cause seems just, but his neighbor comes and searches him." NIV: "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.") As far as I'm concerned, the story of Grawer and many SLU fans who hold a grudge against Robinson is "first," and I'm presenting Melvin's side of the story to set the record straight. However, nothing I'm saying is intended to make Grawer out to be a bad man. I'm just saying that any SLU fans who are making Melvin feel uncomfortable whenever he makes an appearance on campus should stop because his reasons for transferring out seem reasonable. Shoot, there are some SLU fans who make Grawer feel uncomfortable whenever SLU comes up as a topic of conversation because he was fired for "running players away," but what I've said is that Grawer's philosophy of teaching/coaching didn't mesh with the players he had to work with but he was unwilling to change it. I don't feel I'm blasting him by saying that. It's just that he didn't find his niche in coaching at SLU, though other coaches with similar teaching styles HAVE found their niches (Bob Knight at Texas Tech; John Chaney at Temple; probably a number of others I don't know about). It has been, and still is, my opinion that Rich Grawer was a good coach who should still be in coaching, but Rich said he's more comfortable not being in coaching. I hope that I'm able to express different sides of a story without letting too many of my personal feelings intrude. >With eight members of my extended family being teachers, >including one living in my home, I wish you good luck in >that very important and valuable profession. Thank you. I sincerely appreciate that. >Hopefully in the future, if two of your students get into a >scuffle when your back is turned, that you will get both >sides of the story before handing out disciplinary measures. I'm going to be a high-school teacher. If two students are involved in a fight and I don't see how it happened, both students get referred to their principal's office and the principal will decide on the disciplinary action. I get your point, though, and will say that I believe I have been and will be fair to all involved. Sometimes, though, a teacher must act first and ask questions later. That may mean that while one student gets in trouble immediately, the other student gets in trouble after the teacher has had time to investigate and ask questions of both parties.

The way I see it, there are four players who are a lock to start: Josh Fisher Chris Sloan Reggie Bryant Tom Frericks The fifth starting spot will be between Brandon Morris and Izik Ohanon. If Morris comes in and runs the point the way Brad Soderberg envisions, he'll start at the point. This is what I believe will happen. If Morris isn't steady enough, then Fisher will play the point and Ohanon will start. Regardless of who starts, the aforementioned six players plus Anthony Drejaj and one other big (either Justin Johnson or Ian Vouyoukas) will make up the primary eight-man rotation against the best teams on SLU's schedule. Frericks may have to play heavy minutes if Vouyoukas isn't ready to be part of the rotation, because while Johnson can fill in as a four, I don't think he can defend the center of most teams. In some cases, Ohanon may have to play the center on defense if Vouyoukas isn't ready. Against lesser teams, Darren Clarke and whoever is the odd man out between Johnson and Vouyoukas will see more than token minutes. Of course, I just realized that this whole "analysis" is omitting Floyd McClain, whom I have said I think will play, because I can't envision yet how he'll fit into the rotation. I think Coach Soderberg has a nice problem: how to fit as many as 11 players who could contribute into an eight- or nine-man rotation. Players will have to be on their toes, because during any given game, if they're not on, they could see themselves out of the rotation and look at the box score and see that they played just three minutes.

I believe the top scorers will be, in some sequence: Reggie Bryant Josh Fisher Chris Sloan Izik Ohanon Tom Frericks Bryant will probably be the team-high scorer. I believe that three of the five will average double figures and the other other two will average between eight and ten. Fisher deferred to Marque Perry for the last two seasons, but I think he's ready to step up and be a leader. He will probably duplicate his position as the second-leading scorer (8.2 ppg last year). He may have a few off nights here and there, but hopefully those will be the occasions that Anthony Drejaj or Brandon Morris will step up and replace his scoring. It has been a while since the Bills have been this deep, athletic, and versatile in the backcourt.

That, along with the "college experience" some posters discussed a couple of weeks ago, may explain why SLU has a little trouble attracting the top-notch area players who have the stars in their eyes. As SLU fans, we always say, "Wouldn't it be great, you'll be the heroes in your own town," but many young men think that they want to go off on an odyssey and come home heroes. Brad Soderberg is probably going to have to focus on players whose make-up compels them to stay at home with familiar things and people and on players from not-too-far away places who want to get away from home and think of SLU as a good place to have their "odyssey" to take back home. In other words, unless SLU becomes one of the nation's best programs, many of the Metro area's young men won't dream of playing at SLU and SLU won't get all of the best local talent. Thanks for the report, Nate.

You'll just have to take my word for it (I have no reason to lie). McClain did miss a couple of threes, so he missed more than he made. Keep in mind that he did hit a couple of threes as a freshman. I'm not saying McClain will be great, but he looked good yesterday and I believe he'll get some clock.

...to get the best talent if you can't keep those players around and find a way to motivate them to play well without alienating them? Also, if Grawer brought in the best talent, it doesn't show in the Bills' NCAA Tournament appearance ledger. Look, I've met Rich Grawer, and I don't have anything against him. But apparently, his philosophy of teaching/coaching didn't mesh with the learning styles of the players he was working with. As a future teacher, myself, I'm going to have to be very cognizant of the learning styles of my students and what motivates them and adjust my teaching style to suit them, unless I want to flunk a lot of students, which would anger my principal (boss) and probably cost me my job. But I'm a teacher, not a flunker. The reason Grawer isn't coaching at all anymore is probably that he realized that his style wasn't working but he wasn't willing to change. I have no problem with that. I asked him why he didn't go back into coaching, and he told me that he didn't want to go back into coaching and that he was happy doing what he was doing (he's the athletic director at Clayton High School).

Why is Rich Grawer portrayed as such a saint while Melvin Robinson is villianized? Melvin said that Grawer was a very caustic person who would talk about players and their mothers, making snide comments like (an example by me, not a direct quote), "Your mama could rebound better than you!" Grawer, based on Melvin's description, strikes me as a taskmaster/drill sargeant type of the same mold that made Norm Stewart and Bob Knight. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, good or bad, but it is a personality style that doesn't suit everyone. Melvin told me that the last straw was when he was sick and the doctor had even told Grawer (in a conference including Melvin and his Mom) that Robinson should sit out practice for a day or two. Well, it so happened that when practice came around, Grawer made Melvin suit up and take part in the opening suicide. He couldn't get through it fast enough in his condition (sick), so Grawer put the team through it again. Sick (literally), tired, and fed up, Melvin said what was on his mind (though he can't remember what he said), and quit. Grawer apparently rubbed other players the wrong way a few times too many. Carlos Skinner and McGlother Irvin also left that season. Were they all in the wrong? Melvin said that Skinner had been contemplating leaving even before he decided himself to leave and it was because of Grawer's ways. According to Melvin, Grawer didn't know how to interact with African American young men from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Melvin also said that he knew Grawer would be toast after that season even before he left. He said that Debbie Yow tried to persuade him to stay. I guess for a young man living in the moment, it was too hard for him to get through three more months of that man. I suppose some of the people I'm responding to in this part of the thread may have been being sarcastic and/or wanted to hear the story rather than accept my generalizations. Well, there it is.

I can guarantee that Carl is not Triangle and Too, willie. I hope you're just making a joke. First of all, Tri claimed to have attended Arizona; Carl attended SLU. The guy bleeds, eats, drinks, sleeps, and breathes Saint Louis U. This is the kind of thing that pushes Carl's buttons, though. The first part of our conversation was about how incensed he was that, as someone told him, some negative statement about a Billiken and his name were connected on some message board. He said that he's not into computers and doesn't even have an e-mail address, so there's no way it could be him. He also talked about how it's wrong for a poster to make statements and attribute it to someone else. It was obviously a sore spot for him.

Floyd looks healthy, but I can't say he's in playing shape. He didn't wow me with athleticism, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. He just didn't really have the opportunity. I can't comment on the form of his shot, but he did miss a few and hit a few (including a three-pointer). I believe he'll play and contribute.

Nowhere did I say that Reggie Bryant held his own against Justin Love yesterday. I said that Love dominated, to my chagrin. Really, there was no one there yesterday who was as spectacular as Love. What I said is that Reggie Bryant will be a force for SLU this year, but not on Justin Love's level. I'm not saying whether you should change your view on whether or not Bryant will "be the man" for SLU just yet, but what I am saying is that I believe he will lead the Billikens in scoring, whether his points-per-game average is 13, 15, 18, or 20. I suspect it will be on the lower end, not the higher end.

I think I got there between 4:15 and 4:30, and they had yet to organize play. I think they started in the neigborhood of 5 p.m. (give or take five to ten minutes). As I'm not a SLU student, alumnus, or rec center member, I'm happy that they listened to my request and let me in without making me buy a daily guest pass. Maybe it helped that I had on a Billikens hat. I don't know if they'd let 15 to 20 people do it, but I'm sure they understand that it's only because the Bauman-Eberhardt (did I spell that right? Heck with it: West PIne!) is closed, and they don't hassle the public about admittance there.

You'll notice that the friend or family member of Blake Ahearn that called him/herself "butter33" (formerly "pistol") hasn't logged in since July 3. These were his/her last words: http://207.36.130.25/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...ewmode=threaded If a person were really a SLU fan, I think they would've visted the board in the last 11 days and would've discussed something other than one player who's not going to SLU.

I went on the SLU campus today to watch pickup action among eight current or incoming Billikens, two former Billikens, and a few others, including some non-coach athletic department staffers. First of all, I met a couple of staunch Billikens fans. First I met fellow poster bart (holla back, bart! -- it was good to meet you). Then I met Carl Eisert. I'm sure some of you SLU alumni and boosters (and other posters) know him. Who and/or what doesn't this guy know? The guy talked my ear off and I could hardly concentrate on the action! Bart told me that the guy is a walking historian of Billikens sports. Everyone -- EVERYONE -- who walked by knew Mr. Eisert. He's not into computers and message boards, so he's most likely not reading this (but I know stuff gets to him, anyway), but I'm going to say this, anyway. Carl, it was good to meet you and talk hoops with you. Now, about the games! There isn't much I can really tell you about some pickup action other than general observations -- that may not be newsflashes. First of all the former Bills that "suited up" today were Dave Fergerson and Justin Love. Ferg played ball in Norway and Love in China(!) In my opinion, Ferg and Love dominated the play (to my chagrin), and the only one of the current Billikens who seemed to be able to play with them was Josh Fisher (all three were always on the same team, and I don't think they ever lost). The other seven current Billikens were Reggie Bryant, Anthony Drejaj, Tom Frericks, Bryce Husak (left early), Justin Johnson, Floyd McClain, and Izik Ohanon. Darren Clarke wasn't there. Bryce, Darren's roommate, told me that Darren has a sty in his eye and can't see. I don't know how long Capital D will be out of action. I told Bryce to tell Darren I say his nickname is "Capital D." Chris Sloan wasn't there and has rarely been at the scrimmages. The talk is that he has an internship that keeps him away. Ross Varner and Phillip Hunt were the other missing Billikens (Ian Vouyoukas is in Thessaloniki, as you know, and Brandon Morris is finishing up juco). Don't take too long to read this segment! Fish takes the ball to the hole with authority, and he pushes the ball up the floor.... It was good to see McClain in action. He looks good, is apparently finally healthy with no lingering nagging injuries, and I expect him to play and contribute this year.... Bryant will be a force -- not on Love's level, but still a force.... Izik still has trouble finishing in traffic, but if he gets a clear path to the hoop, look out!... JJ doesn't seem to be focused out there in unstructured scrimmages. Carl told me he performs better with a coach "motivating" him.... Frericks can score better than Kenny Brown. He didn't play that long today -- he's nursing an ankle injury he suffered in scrimmage Thursday.... AD is going to be pushed if he wants to play as much this year as last year.... I saw nothing to make me change my mind about Husak's readiness to play On my way out, I encountered Melvin Robinson and had a good, long conversation with him. He lamented that many people around Saint Louis University (fans) treat him with much malice after all these years. Some even load the woes of the entire program on his shoulders (according to him). If anyone out there reading this still harbors a grudge against the Big Chill, please LET IT GO! People shouldn't be giving Melvin such grief when they see him these days. He left the program 12 years ago -- it's history. He was a young man whose coach was making him miserable, and he decided he had to leave. I can't blame him for that. When I was around that age, I transferred away from one college (Lake Forest) to UMSL (back home) because I felt uncomfortable, and I endured a lot less (I guess) than Melvin did. Based on what Melvin told me, Rich Grawer was no saint in the whole ordeal. I won't retell Melvin's "last straw" story now, but I will say that if it had been me, I would have left, too. Melvin's son, Damien Smith-Robinson, is 11 years old and is 6-3 already. Melvin said he wears a size 17 shoe, and the doctors expect the young man to grow to around or over seven feet and wear a size 21 shoe! Melvin said his son currently says he wants to go to SLU like his dad did. He thinks Damien will consider going straight to the NBA out of high school, but he's going to encourage him to go to college. If the young man does decide to go to college and attend SLU, that would be great (in my opinion -- some people might still harbor hard feelings towards Melvin then), but that's seven or eight years down the road.