Quality Is Job 1

The key is education. If children aren't in an environment where education is important, then it doesn't matter what dialect of English is spoken. African American English is no different, in that respect, than any other casual language. Even the President speaks one way in casual conversation with his closest friends and another way when reading speeches (which are standard written English -- and almost no one talks that way). What got all this started was the conversations among Amy Stewart, Carmento Floyd, and Ricky Clemons. Well, they may talk that way in private, but don't think that they talk that way when wider English is expected. In those situations, they use the language of wider communication (so-called standard English). They appear to be successful enough, to me (excepting Clemons). Your very notion that AAE shouldn't be used around children perpetuates the notion that it should be eradicated. If it's not used around children, the children won't acquire it, and the dialect will eventually die. Then all the people with the assimilation mindset will be very happy. It won't happen, because when people are at home, comfortable, around their friends and family, they will speak their native language, whether that's near-standard English, Spanish, or African American English. And, as long as the community educates, they all learn the language of wider communications, so I don't think African American children are endangered by being exposed to AAE.

slu72, I apologize for diverting the topic of your "hot stove" thread so far away from the topic. In this thread I will reintroduce it and reply to your points. >Okay let's open the hot stove season. What the Bills need to do to make the dance next >year or in keeping with our mascot...the Icon of what ought >to be.... > >>Recruitment of a Juco PF who can start now >>A healthy Tom Frericks-don't schedule any games after a rodeo >>A more assertive IO, take it strong to the hoop also shoot that mid range jumper the D gives you. RB can't be the only go to guy >>JJ to develop strong over the summer-see #1 >>AD to get some minutes, make that a lot of minutes, at PG over the summer >>DP to be ready for D-1 ball, from what you guys say who have seen him play, he ain't far away and will step up immediately, but, he's still a frosh >>TL to qualify...if he doesn't, land a JUCO pg >>Darren Clarke has to develop over the summer into a scorer, again RB can't be the only go to guy >>Have IV stay in St.Louis and play in the Bonner league >>Find two guys to replace JF and CS's leadership and heart >>A much better out of conference schedule > >Would this be a lineup that would give us a chance at the >dance: > >DP pg >RB #2 >IO #3 >JUCO PF #4 >TF #5 > >or if TL qualifies start him instead of IO, I think that >would be scary...starting two frosh against CUSA level >talent? >>Recruitment of a Juco PF who can start now I believe Brad Soderberg will get his man. I'm not worried about it; I'm just waiting to see who it will be. >>A healthy Tom Frericks-don't schedule any games after a rodeo Tom Frericks will be a consistent scorer, averaging double figures. >>A more assertive IO, take it strong to the hoop also shoot that mid range jumper the D gives you. RB can't be the only go to guy While I do believe SLU needs more than one offensive threat AND that the Billikens will have more than just Reggie Bryant next season, I don't know if it will be Izik Ohanon. I think Ohanon will average double figures (around 10 ppg), but that could come from his scoring nine points per game nine times out of 10 and having one outburst of 19 points once every 10 games. >>JJ to develop strong over the summer-see #1 I suspect we'll be waiting yet another year for Justin Johnson to put it all together (I hope he proves me wrong and tells me to my face when I see him next summer). >>AD to get some minutes, make that a lot of minutes, at PG over the summer Anthony Drejaj will be a leader -- possibly the heart and soul of the team -- but I don't think he'll be the point. When AD is in the game, look for at least one of the other ballhandling guards -- (in order of preference) Dwayne Polk, Tommie Liddell, and Darren Clarke -- to also be in the game. >>DP to be ready for D-1 ball, from what you guys say who have seen him play, he ain't far away and will step up immediately, but, he's still a frosh Dwayne is the least of my concerns. As a Floyd Irons-coached player, he'll be ready to go from day one. The main question is: how much will Polk grow during his Billiken career? I've noticed that Div. I players from Vashon seem to have fully tapped their potential in high school and, while performing reasonably well, don't have much upside. Now, Anthony Bonner was an exception to that trend, so maybe Dwayne will be too. >>TL to qualify...if he doesn't, land a JUCO pg I believe Tommie Liddell will qualify. I won't contemplate any other outcome. >>Darren Clarke has to develop over the summer into a scorer, again RB can't be the only go to guy. Capital D will be just fine. He was just a freshman this season. >>Have IV stay in St.Louis and play in the Bonner league I agree that Ian Vouyoukas should be around the team and should play in the Anthony Bonner summer league, but I also think he should go to a big man camp and should also spend a couple of weeks away from St. Louis scrimmaging with more accomplished big men. The competition he'll face from local bigs won't prepare him well for the Conference USA swan song. >>Find two guys to replace JF and CS's leadership and heart That will work itself out, but I think Tom Frericks, Anthony Drejaj, and Dwayne Polk will be major motivators (hey, Polk has never experienced losing when healthy, so I think he'll instill a hatred of losing in his teammates. >>A much better out of conference schedule No doubt. >Would this be a lineup that would give us a chance at the >dance: > >DP pg >RB #2 >IO #3 >JUCO PF #4 >TF #5 > >or if TL qualifies start him instead of IO, I think that >would be scary...starting two frosh against CUSA level >talent? It's probably too early to speculate on lineups and rotations. I wouldn't worry, though, about Liddell and Polk both starting as frosh. If Coach Soderberg believes the Bills can win with them out there, then we'll see it, and if not, we won't. I suspect Liddell will start the season on the bench and work his way into the starting lineup.

>If we want tests and society to be unbiased, it should be >used cautiously around children. Okay, I am dropping the >subject. I do not want to be involved in your posts of >these matters anyway. I mistakenly jumped in, my friend. "If we want tests and society to be unbiased, it should be used cautiously around children." What does "it" represent? I value your thoughts on the subject. Can't we have meaningful dialogue? Maybe together we can help find a way to right the tilting ship of educating all children in America.

I am neither a proponent of "Ebonics" being taught in schools nor "okay with it." First of all, "Ebonics" is a misnomer -- and an inaccurate term. As a contraction of "ebony" and "phonics,' "ebonics" would mean "black sounds," and that's woefully inaccurate to describe the language many African Americans speak -- a true dialect with features such as multiple negatives, consonant deletion, copula deletion, the lack of a concluding &l;r&r;, the habitual "be," and a number of other features absent in the English of wider use. Therefore, (AAE) African-American English Dialect is the term I prefer. This dialect is prevalent among African-American speakers, especially those with less education (some use more features than others). It is primarily a conversational dialect, and those who use it are reasonably proficient in it from childhood on. It doesn't need to be taught in schools, because the students already know it. English (or grammar), as taught in schools is primarily written language. Formal written English is different from conversational English, even for speakers of so-called proper English. Our students need to learn that the standard of written English is different from the way they talk when they're with their peers. The thing I've been preaching is that it must be considerably more effective to appreciate AAE as a true dialect and guide students into understanding the difference between it and standard written English than to set out to eradicate the students' language. Doing the latter, essentially you'd be saying, "You're a barbarian; I'm going to teach you the right way to talk." Umm, no, you won't! But with the former, you'll be able to teach your students to write the conversational "I be too tired to do no homework when I walk through da do'" as "I'm always to tired to start my homework when I first get home."

Schasz, is that speculation on your part, or have you heard or read something along those lines?

Thank you, jjray, for saying what I was trying to say. You did it much more succinctly.

You're right that anyone can succeed in life, but it sure is a heck of a lot easier for people who can read and write well to succeed than those with highly-developed social and motor skills without adequate reading skills. Without reading comprehension, a person would have to work probably 10 times as hard, likely shortening his/her lifespan in the process, as someone who can read well.

>Lower-income families from East St. Louis are at a >disadvantage due to some cultural values. > >On the other hand, I was never asked how I was doing in >school. The importance of education was never stressed to me >by those surrounding me in the same way as some others might >have been. My parents preferred the "laissez faire" approach >to my education, allowing me to discover things on my own. >I'm not trying to compare my upbringing to TL's, because we >obviously grew up in two totally different worlds, but I >think education is a conscious choice. I made the conscious >choice to read books, and I managed to get a 30 on my ACT. By reading and appreciating education, were you following your parents' example, even if they didn't beat you over the head about it?

I feel the main component of standardized test is reading comprehension. As a community, we African Americans (particularly middle class and below) have been horrible at teaching our children to read and enjoy reading. It's not that we lack the intelligence, but our priorities are out of whack. We put so much value on sports, music, rapping, dancing, and entertainment that we have little time or interest in reading and writing. We look to sports, etc., as a way out of poverty, but it's really fool's gold. The blame doesn't all rest on the teachers in East St. Louis; it doesn't rest all on the parents; it doesn't rest all on the kids; it doesn't rest all on the government. Rather, they all bear some of the blame and they all must work together to effect a solution. Roy, I don't think I'd be risking much if I wagered that your daughter can read better than Tommie while he could probably cream her in a video game. That's what we're dealing with here. Good reading skills lend well to good ACT scores, but good xbox skills don't. I don't know Tommie personally and am not really speaking specifically about him -- just making presumptions -- but you get my drift.

>So what you're saying Thicks is that since Tommie is black >and from East St. Louis his parents do not stress the >importance of his education and he has not been nurtured in >a way that would promote intellectual growth? > >Maybe it's due to the fact that the kid is 17-18 and is more >interested in chicks and haning out with his buddies than >studying for an exam. We can speculate all we want, but we >shouldn't start calling people racist (which you have done >on more than one occation)or say a kid doesn't have good >influences because his family doesn't make 6 figures. No, what I'm saying is that those things are possible -- even likely -- so it's wrong to insinuate that the kid must be stupid. I haven't called anyone racist, either today or in the past, as you say; rather I've pointed out some social inequities that most non-minorities likely aren't aware of.

College isn't the only way of getting prepared for life.

>Come on - that's a complete punt. I wouldn't be shocked by >research showing minorities don't perform as well on >standardized tests, but I'm talking about getting a >qualifying score. That's not too difficult. > >EVEN IF you are correct that the test is so biased as to >make it reasonable for minorities not to achieve the NCAA's >qualifying score, a GPA of 2.5 (which is what's been posted >on this board) at a public school in East St. Louis is not >indicative of someone prepared for 4 years of high level >(being somewhat generous here) college education. "...so biased as to make it reasonable for minorities not to achieve the NCAA's qualifying score..." It's not so much minorities as folks from lower SES (socioeconmic status). East St. Louis most certainly qualifies. > >To start hurling around insults about bias and possible >racial prejudice is beyond the pale. Frankly, I was more >worried about TL's own well being than anything else. I'm >telling you right now if my son has 2.5 gpa and >non-qualifying score on the ACT I WILL BEG HIM to go the >prep school route. That's what it's for - to PREP him for >the world and (hopefully) 4 years of college education. I didn't mean to insult you, but, in the vein of being brutally honest, I wanted to make you aware that the middle-class suburban world I presume you're from is not the center of the universe. Tommie Liddell's background and upbringing is most likely radically different from that of your son's. In all likelihood, your son would not experience such a scenario because you value education and instill and encourage the value of education in him. Tommie probably doesn't have such nurturing. He may well be intellectually capable of better grades and test scores, but if his exposure to the material of the ACT has been limited and a culture that encourages learning wasn't prevalent while he was in elementary school, immediate success on the ACT is unlikely. Hey, we may be saying very similar things, but I bristle at the suggestion of "remedial" education. It's one of those phrases that rubs me the wrong way.

>And let's be brutally honest for a moment - if you can't get >over the NCAA's ACT hurdle on the first try you need some >remedial education. It might not be the worst thing for TL >to have a year at prep school to better prepare himself for >life. While we're being brutally honest, let me say that the above sentiments mean you are, at best, ignorant and/or insensitive or, at worst, racially prejudiced (I hope it's the former). Point blank, both standardized college entrance exams (ACT and SAT) are biased against minorities and anyone, particularly, in the lower socioeconmic status. I feel it is unfair to Tommie Liddell and many other young people whose background (not intelligence) makes it improbable for them to get an 18 on the ACT for you to say that such people need remedial education. Furthermore, it is your bias that leads you to believe he is not already adequately prepared for life.

Actually, this past year the deal was that the Billikens had to score 60 points or more (and win the game).

I don't have cable, so I won't be able to watch, anyway, but why are you excluding me?

He's got HOPS. He tried a dunk toward the end of the exhibition (afterward, Dentmon tried one). He didn't complete it, but he was definitely up there high enough to. And Dwayne is not as tall as me! (If he gets to claim 5-9, then I ought to stop claiming 5-8.5 and claim 5-11.)

If the game normally includes Missouri players from outside of the St. Louis Metro area, then I take back my complaint. This was the first one I've attended, so I didn't know. One of the players who impressed me was Justin Dentmon. He wasn't as dominant as Dwayne Polk, but he was still quite good. He's quick, he distributes well, and he can score. Apparently he flew under the radar. He'll make some bigger-name schools regret that they didn't look at him more closely. I'm sure we'll see him make a little noise in the NCAA Tournament one of these years. Won't he be teaming with Najeeb Echols at Illinois State next year? Lawrence Blackledge, Dentmon's teammate, was also impressive. He's very athletic. He told me he's probably going to a junior college. I asked him for a list, and the only school he named is Kaskaskia. Jamall Walker, who's an assistant coach at Redlands Community College in Oklahoma City, was in the house, along with his head coach (who coached him in high school). They were looking at Curtis Muse, among others. I talked to Curtis's mom, and she cited Curtis's learning disorder as the cause for his needing to go the juco route. (Whoever posted earlier this year that Curtis qualified was mistaken, apparently.) Corey Tate, who's coaching at Mineral Area was in the house. He and Tommie Liddell appear to be pretty close. He put Tommie on the phone with Erwin Claggett, who wasn't there last night. We're in for a treat for the next four years with Polk coming. Not only is he a fabulous player, but he seems to be a good person who's well grounded. He told me he's planning on majoring in business at SLU. I told him to stay on Tommie about getting qualified and told him that I envision the two of them being like St. Joseph's Nelson and West. He went on to tell me how that game had concluded (someone had told him, I guess). I told him I had had Oklahoma State winning that game, anyway, and he said that he did too, because of the defense Oklahoma State plays, and he stressed how important defense is: "It's all about defense," I believe he said.

In my opinion, it was Stanford which did not deserve a No. 1 seed.

I was typing my observations and opinions in a separate thread as you wrote that.

First of all, I found it entertaining, which is the whole point. But having said that and gotten it out of the way, I must complain -- on behalf of the fans on the Missouri side of the Mississippi River -- that because the Illinois team had players from Chicago and mid-Illinois (around Peoria, according to Earl Austin, Jr.) East Siders are not allowed to proclaim they're better than the Missouri St. Louisans. The Illinois squad won 119-106, but I think both squads should have scored 15 to 20 more points than they did. I wasn't that there was any defense, but both squads missed a number of easy layups and dunks and committed unforced turnovers. Dwayne Polk is DA MAN!!! He's quick and reasonably strong. He goes where he wants to with the ball, he's not afraid to take the ball to the basket, and he knocks down open shots. Best of all, he definitely finds the open man, especially if that guy's going to the hole. Brad Soderberg may have to pull Dwayne away from throwing the lob pass (there won't be a Curis Muse at SLU next year, though maybe Izik Ohanon will be able to fill in) and get him to kick the ball out to Reggie more. I believe Dwayne topped 30 points. Tommie Liddell is a very good athlete, but he does seem to coast a bit. Then again, tonight was an all-star game, so it doesn't tell us much. He's not an outside shooter, but he can create looks for teammates or knock down mid-range jumpers off the dribble. He can go for highlight-reel dunks, but doesn't seem to want the spotlight. He'll kill some teams softly during his career at SLU. (Aside: What Jameer Nelson and Delonte West are to St. Joseph's is what I expect Polk and Liddell to be at SLU.) Luke Meyer didn't appear to fit in in this game -- err, exhibition. But Luke will be a key player for the Billikens in a couple of years. I think he'll mostly ride the bench as a freshman, but then contribute from his sophomore season, on. Kalen Grimes did not play because of injury. Ryan Hamlett, from Chicago Von Stuebon, is very athletic -- a tremendous finisher. He won the Illinois MVP. The program says he's unsigned. He's teammate Demetrous Evans is also a high-flyer. Well, that's all for now. If anyone has questions, I'll try to answer them.

Kalen Grimes was in the building, but he did not play because of injury.

Put on your Power 6 glasses so you can read this clearly. Just because the Big XII is the Big XII doesn't mean their conference is automatically so good. If the bottom teams of the conference fatten up on home games against low-major teams, it boots the RPIs of the teams in the conference once they start playing each other. The Power 6 conferences are routinely overrated, and the NCAA Tournament and exempt tournaments bear that out every year. Yes, the teams at the very top of those conferences will form the pool from which the National Champion will come every year (except 1990), but once you get past those teams, the teams in the A-10, Conference USA, and some others are every bit as good, but they and their conference mates don't get to fatten up on a home schedule, so their RPI is inherently lower. I don't believe 10 to 15 schools could have played St. Joe's schedule and gone undefeated. Fewer than five could.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience at an NBA game, but all I'm interested in is how Larry Hughes performed. At least, I was hoping to get a report on Larry's performance somewhere in your post.

> You did not know X was going to be in the elite 8 when the >seed was given ... in fact at that time they were only >slightly better than a bubble team. TT was more highly >regarded. I agree with you that OSU has the losses ... but >they also have numerous top quality wins which St. Joes does >not ... and that is my main point they have no really good >wins ... Gonzaga and BC ... I wouldn't call either of them >great wins. How can you say that the Xavier win wasn't impressive at the time it occurred because we didn't yet know Xavier would reach the Elite 8 and then turn around and proclaim that beating Gonzaga was no special feat? At the time -- and for most of the season -- Gonzaga was one of the nation's top teams and it was before we knew Gonzaga wouldn't reach the Sweet 16.

First of all, the RPI is flawed. It doesn't really tell how good a team is or how good of an opponent a team plays. The RPI system only tells half of the story. Second, the RPI is significantly biased towards teams that play in the Big East, ACC, Big Ten, Big XII, SEC, and Pac 10. People need to stop hating on St. Joseph's -- they're good, and they deserved a Number 1 seed this year. Their only loss of the season came at the hands of Xavier, which we now see was underrated because of a sluggish start. If St. Joe's didn't deserve a No. 1 seed, then neither did UNLV the year they won the National Championship (1990) and the following year when they went undefeated until losing to Duke in the semifinal. UNLV's schedule those years weren't as tough as St. Joe's this year. Just because a team plays in a non-top-6 conference and has a less-than-grinding schedule doesn't mean it isn't good enough to be one of the best teams in the country.