courtside

Right now they would get two. It will beinteresting if GW and Xavier play well but neither loses in conf tourney. Temple and Cahlotte MUST win the tourney to get in. Big East really could get 8...no other conference has that kind of shot.

West Virginia made over 20 3's. WOW! Close for a long time, WV too much in the end. UDub over UCLA at UCLA, UCLA blowing big lead. Illinois right now looking as though they will squeak by and hang on at home vs Michiagn...up 1 with ball, 19 sec's left.

St. Charles West won a small schools game at L North 40-33. Soderberg had half of his teams points, 20, ...8-10 3-3 on 3's. Brian Maurer virtually scored most of the rest of their points. And that was it.

Not the tastiest grub in town. Though appreciating the sponsorship.

Thanks. Good luck to him. Maybe something is in the water in Chi-town. Former Billikens, Nick Walls and Dipsy Selowanne both struggled to get playing time while there, before departure. Former Billikens player Jackie Jewsbury rode the pine his first year or two in K.C. before blossoming into a nice contributor for KC in the mdifield. The KC Wizards have long been up for sale...over a year, recent talks have mentioned a possible large stadium complex in the suburbs, nothing definite, but Lamar Hunt has patiently waited to see if he could get a local buyer to keep team in that area. Too bad it isn't in the Lou. Lastly, ...former DeSmet/IU soccer star Chris Klein, long time KC Wizards great and U.S. national team player, received an invitation to train for the next three months for a shot at the World Cup team, among several other St. Louisans...good luck to him too.....was becoming a National Team fixture before blowing out his knee....I have long thought he would be terrific on the right side mid for U.S. team...it is a long shot to make it back, but he has a shot.

Thanks. Obviously you need to take into consideration it is one game. With that said, one could have the same comments ou had in most SLU games this season...few exceptions but most are right on. Methodical teams and good defensive teams give GW trouble. This has been the book on Soderberg before he even came to SLU...tough defense, and little offense. He has yet to change any perceptions. The frosh class is encouraging, but as we have discussed on the board before, these are top 100 kids, not top 30 kids, and there is a difference. Liddell will eventually finish his shots...the encouragement is his athleticism, instincts, aggressiveness, etc...the shots will fall next year for him. Lisch may be more of a two year contributor. But he is a solid recruit...his adjustment to the college game will take two years, perhaps a year longer than expected or hoped by many on the board. In order for SLU to turn the corner, Soderberg needs a Liddell caliber talent...not the same style or position, etc...just that level of ability EACH year. So far he hasn't, the hope is that will change. THEN after that, sprinkle in a recruit once every so many years that is even better than that. It is obvious Soderberg can coach, his kids play hard for him etc...but will his teams eventually score enough points night in and night out, and will he recruit each year here on out...or will it be more kids who aren't able to play at the level SLU is aspiring to reach. It is very difficult to maintain the level of intensity, and defensive effort over a long season, if you can't score enough to win. Eventually you wear down. Will be interesting to see how much better some players get come the end of the season.

It will be interesting to see any let downs coming up. It is a learning experience year. Not having a good class until this year's frosh is showing up. SLU is playing for the conference tournament and NIT. Anybody seems to have a shot in the conference tourney, so hopefully after losing the close games, the team will stay the course. With that said, the constant games in the 50's is pretty painful to watch for another year.

I would have to agree with Bauman. It is tired and old. The LAST thing I will say is that my comments were regarding the embarrassingly bad Poplar Bluff Showdown. It would be the equivalent of the Cincy school thumping their chest for winning the Chaminade Christmas Tourney. You post misleading or incomplete things, and say oh well and change the subject and move on...everyone makes mistakes, but with you it is more than pattern. So that, when or if there is any decent info it gets lost. This would be a good example, ....the Pro Bass Tournament this year is a very strong tournament. Kickapoo is the weakest team there. And they aren't a bad team. Vashon's first opponent is legit, and Lathen Wallace, Jefferson's guard, did turn down AZ for Oregon St. They should get 3 good games. But these posts would be much better served on the STL preps board or elsewhere. Posts on specific SLU recruits are another story. As I said, the Pro Bass tourney is a strong tourney, and if anyone is near that area, it would be a good event to attend.

>A lot of the out of state teams that have been scheduled by >area teams are down. I dont think they picked some bums >from out of town to play to pad their records. Thay doesnt >really establish any credibility. I doubt that most area >schools would do that intentionally, its just an unfortunate >reality. And maybe people are just underrating the talent >in this area and state. We have a lot of prospects in this >state, and we arent inferior. In a word, no. Schools know ahead of time when their opponents are going to have a good team or not. MANY of the teams Vashon has played out of state in recent years are not only having down years, they are historically bad teams or average at best teams in their local area. If you make frequent posts over a multiple year period with inciteful enthusiasm leading others to believe the success is more than what it actually is...yes, it is a problem. It is up to YOU to find out how good or not an opponent is before rattling off stats. Then don't make the posts. Pick one or the other. Out of respect to the board I am not going to let you continue to post half-truths at best. If I happen to read something, and know for a fact different, then I will respond. I don't care if the team is little sisters of the poor or Vashon or whomever. Is Vashon scheduling mostly bad teams and sprinkling in some good ones over the past years, yes. And there is nothing wrong with that. However why should I care about individual player stats against far inferior competition, local or out of state? And not just to you, be careful about evaluating a player or team based on one game. I remember that Job Scheyer kid struggling in the shootout last year, and the kid is one of the nation's best in his class, spectacular player. He is still embarrassed by his admission of his shootout performance last year. Vashon has a great team as they do many years...and most of those years that doesn't necessarily transpire into good D-I players, with few wxceptions, AB being one. And everyone here knows my thoughts on high school national rankings in any sport. I won't go there again. Just get more info on who they are playing before perhaps mentioning it on a board. If it is bogus as it was this time, I will probably call it out sometimes, if not, I probably won't post.

Thanks Steve...was curious. Good for you. I have had a lot of close friends come and go from there, and one of my brothers worked in U.S. trade rep's office in the past among other things. I know academically it is ranked ...for whatever rankings are worth, top 50. And I know based on applications and acceptance, tough place to get in for many, especially post-undergrad. Most people I know went there for grad school, law school, or MBA...good friend of mine was your recent MBA student President. Still know some committee staffers and majority clerks etc...was just curious.

Correct me if I am wrong Steve, but doesn't GW have the most non-local student body ratio in the nation? It is one thing to say that GW lacks the facilities, commitment etc...to athletics in general...and another to say commuter school. It doesn't have the type of tradtional college campus..etc.. Say Steve, assuming you are a Pol Sci/Govt or thereabouts major...have you had any internships yet? Where? If not, where are you looking? Just curious.

You made a post touting the great stats of individual players in games against bad at best opponents, when the opponents' level of play was unknown to most of the board because they were out of town teams. It is extremely misleading, and at best incomplete information. You did the same thing last year both here and the STL board. Gee I also can't wait for that Chicago Manley showdown coming up next month for the V....Manley is winless so far in league play and sporting a .500 overall record. Thought I would get that one out of the way early for you.

Didn't we go through this last year? If you can't go to the trouble to find out about the level of competition played...how can you comment on stats? Two of the three teams Vashon played are bad teams...not ranked anywhere near the top 15 in their local area, let alone state. Their championship game opponent is historically a bad basketball team and this year is no different. Winning by 30-40 points was the expectation in their games. As Nate Lasch posted on the STL forum...many of those teams played last year out of state were maybe the 5th or 6th best teams in their conference at best. We've been through this before. It's tired.

Any competiton will be better than the embarrassingly bad, recent Poplar Bluff Showdown. Some brutally bad out of state teams in that one.

That is what happens with young teams, lose early on the road. That will be a challlenge for SLU as well. So tough to win on the road for young teams. SLU will lose their share on the road, even to lesser level teams. You take your lumps. Nebraska is an example of a team that isn't great but at home early in a season against a young team....and there you go. The positive for SLU is that the A-10 isn't the Big East, so there is more of an opportunity to sneak some road wins. Talented young players become veterans late in a season if they play a lot, and they improve before your eyes.

I saw a replay of the game on ESPN Full Court last night. John Rooney did the gasm btw...the new Cards radio baseball announcer...he was solid, Wenzel the color guy was bad...but I have seen worse. Go back a few pages and read the Morrison vs Novak threads. Obviously the 41 points stand out, in particular the variety of ways he score. But the 16 boards jump out at me. AGGRESSIVE. Novak has long had a problem with being too passive at times and letting the game come to him. Sometimes he gets aggressive and can easily drop 25, other times, drift and get 10. An enigma. On television...I saw him drop f-bombs to teammates, fired up etc...the kid has the talent to do more. No, he still can't take it on the floor and finish inside...but the variety of his game ahs picked up. One thing I would say...speed kills. Marquette's two Frosh point guards are extremely quick, and very tough with the basketball, and routinely beat UCONN's guards off the dribble to create more options. We've discussed this with SLU for example...the need for dribble penetration, strength with the ball...etc...If Marquette had a power forward, they would be a top 25 club. They received great role play help last night, but I just don't see it happening with them all the time in the ridiculously tough Big East. That win won't mean much if they lose their next game. But you can see the difference with better athletes and players who can make an immediate impact. As for Novak, ...there aren't too many 6'9 kids who can shoot from as deep as they want...something else I always harp on...FREE THROWS...66 in a row for the kid...all you have to do is mix in 3's with drawing fouls and you can rack up 25 a night like that.

As I said, I don't care where the kids come from. Some years there aren't local level players capable of major D I ball. Fine, go somewhere else to get them. You do have to establish yourself a little in your own backyard first. And yes, you read correctly 3000. There is no reason that cannot happen in the next 5 years or less. None. Raise your expectations. Make the games an event not to be missed by students and young adults, and quit catering to 80 year old men. No offense to any old-timer. But it is about the kids, about the atmosphere, and winning. I expect extreme aggressiveness from Levick.

Cheese, most schools do not get that kind of student turnout. Doesn't mean it isn't realistic to have a goal of 3000 students. I am aware of your correct enrolment figures. Yes, that is a goal that should be out there. Of course getting a 1000 etc...first....but it should be a goal, a realistic goal. I said if Soederberg doesn't make the NCAA's next year or the year after...that would be three more years including this one. Does SLU want a top 25 program within the next 5-10 years or not?

tseugnekillib, You don't have to wait 3-4 ywars to see about a player. It is easy to see that Liddell is a player, and Lisch, though not as advanced as Liddell, will be a solid player...as opposed to other current or past players who took or are taking longer to develop if at all. The hope is that SLU will be able to recruit more Lisch/Liddell level players. Now some of them won't develop...it isn't a sure thing. But the expectation should be one or two kids in same recruiting level as Lisch and Liddell. AND...once in a while throw in a top level recruit, i.e. higher than those two once every 4-5 years. You have to start with kids who can at least come off of the bench and get minutes and solid play their first year.

Welcome to the board. I would say ...it isn't a matter of lack of a killer instinct, it is a lack of players and lack of talent....not to be harsh, but that is how it is...the hops it with improvement of the more exciting young players, SLU will develop a player or two with the needed killer instinct to take a game over down the stretch. SLU would have very few wins if not for the improvement of IV. VERY few wins. He also needs help, and won't get it this year inside. I would agree with the notion that Liddell needs to touch the ball more, and even play point more...unfortunately this is out of necessity. He is NOT a point guard. But SLU is lost offensively without Liddell creating for people like IV and himself. The hope was the Dwyane Polk would be better at this point, and be able to get into the lane and create for others and himself much much more often. I was concerned about this...what I didn't expect was Polk to be such a poor shooter. A nice spark plug off the bench increasing the speed of the game, but not a starer imo. Speed is obviously his greatest asset. Obviously SLU needs more players who are great athletes who are also good hoops players like Liddell. In the past and present, SLU has had too many guys who take 3-4 yars to develop, instead of 2. Getting better athletes is a start.

One thing to consider when looking at stats...is how good was th team the previous year, and how good are your returning teammates. If Lisch played on a top 25 team for example, his stats would be lower as would his playing time. I like to look at how many minutes are you playing/averaging...and compare that to the numbers. If you are going to play 30 plus minutes a night, you need to produce some offense. Lisch has been fine...he isn't the second coming as advertised by Roy...and frankly that I believe is the cause for debates about him. Roy was way over the top with him, which is fine. IMO, he is a little ahead defensively, though I expect the Frosh defensive nmistakes...and he is more behind offensively than expected...again not a lot on either end. On offense, he will improve as he goes...but he will not be more than up and down all year. He is exactly as advertised, a good solid recruit, and those kinds of recruits are difference makers their last two years. Some have a shot of being that their Soph year, but most are two year impact guys after learning and gettig minutes. Eventually the hops is after a few more years of solid recruits, Soderberg will sprinkle in an immediate difference maker superstar recruit once every few years, or several years. It will be interesting to watch him catch up to the speed of the game on offense...both physically and with his decision making. He is more of a typical Frosh in those areas right now. As I have mentioned in other posts...if Soderberg doesn't bring in similar level kids for next year or the year after...Lisch and co will be a .500 team playing for a new coach their senior year. The hope and expactation is to turn the coner in recruiting after a nice beginning. SLU needs a point guard, a shooter or two and a low post player...if they don't produce one of these next year or the year after...the class will be wasted.

I have been critical of Soderberg at times, but in fairness to him, he hasn't had the school's commitment to win either. Did I think Soderberg would be able to overcome his disadvantages? No, and frankly, he hasn't. A new AD, a new Arena are needed help and signs...but they alone do not define commitment to me. Certainly not enough to overcome the long long previous lack of one. They are great initial steps, and frankly long overdue. The STL area most years will have a handful of kids capable of playing at SLU or better. If he can get one of those each year, that is a start. But as I have said before, I don't care where the players come from. What people need to understand is that it will take a good recruit a year at least to get experience and adjust to the college game. That is why he needs one in each class. If he can get a Liddell and Lisch ...one or two a year for multiple years in a row...AND sprinkle in one superstar every so many years....he must land a stud recruit ...an immediate impact player the next few years. Sure it is all easier said than done. For now, the hoops budget has been reported to be low and not up to standards. The facilities are below standard as well. It is a good start to get the local kids first who can play...and then maybe he can land a more highly touted recruit or two locally or nationally. Since Soderberg has made slow progress in doing this, imo he doesn't have a large margin for error the next couple of years. Current needs are point guard, power forward, shooting guard. Other people could probably offer more on DM coming in next year...but he doesn't play any of the above mentioned positions...and frankly probably won't see a lot of playing time til year 2 at least. SLU is paying the price right now with their upperclassmen...or lack of quality upperclassmen players. Do you really think Soderberg will still be the coach if they do not make the NCAA's the next two years(not counting this one? If you win, people will come to games. Levick has a track record of getting students to go. Even if the team stinks....it imo is not a big challenege to get students to go to games. First, gotta schedule the games like Gonzaga and Iowa etc...named schools. Without football, the competition for student support is minimal. The games themselves need a rock n' roll atmosphere. Go to games in other cities...all kinds of stuff going on....great sound system, fitting music for the atmosphere...etc...catered to STUDENTS AND YOUNG ADULTS...not the John Dough 40 year alum. This is Levick's area...There is NO reason SLU can't have a goal of MINIMUM 3000 students at most home games...at least the decent ones, and conference games. When recruiting undergrads, the basketball program needs to be advertised and executed as THE place to be as far as University events are concerned. No more apathy....marketing efforts and promotions catered to students.. As long as the team makes progress towards winning, they will come. You have to make a commitment from a university standpoint...what do you want to be? Do you want to be a top 25 program? So far, pertly his fault, and partly not his fault, Soderberg has failed to bring in players good enough to win basketball games. This is objective fact. This year's class takes a little pressure off...but not for long. If you can fill a need, ...point guard, power forward, shooter...for next year...the prgress continues....if DM is all you have and he can't make an impact...you stay the same or take a step back. That would put more pressure to get 2 or 3 guys in next year's class. If this year's class isn't followed up with better classes, at least one the next two years, ...people will watch Lisch and Lddell play .500 ball theri senior year under a new coach.

I found Soderberg's post-game comments interesting. I credit him for talking after the game. He is a likeable nice guy. His teams will play very hard, and nobody will enjoy playing them. Soderberg said, maybe it is on him. Maybe he isn't recruiting enough shooters, let alone good enough offensive players. This is obviously true, and there is still the need for low post help. When you recruit kids like a Liddell and Lisch, in that top 100 or so range...it is possible they will be more than advertised, but more likely, where they are....meaning they will be difference makers their last two years, and solid progress their first two years. Liddeell is obviously way ahead of Lisch in the college transition. But I do think Lisch will be a good player his last two years. SLU needs two kids each year in that caliber for 3 straight years to be any good. Or get a fortunate class of 3 or 4 people. Simply put, all the pressure in the world is on next year's class to be as good, and for the current returning role players to improve next year. The local recruiting class has taken a little pressure off of Soderberg for this year. He needs to find better offensive players. To Soderberg's defense, SLU has NEVER had a commitment to winning college hoops in my lifetime. The hope is that Levick will be extremely aggressive in changing this, and...that it is accepted. Or...if Soderberg doesn't get two or three good classes in a row, he won't be around a lot longer. It is going to take a coach who can overcome the school's lack of cimmitment to hoops to get SLU over the hump, and then possibly gain more respect from the administration. Hoping Soderberg is the guy...but really unsure. We shall see. It is a challenge to get players EACH year...at least one or two good ones.

I'd take a Dartmouth education any time.

Not sure of Dartmouth's local connection. I do remember Eric Howard from DeSmet, played on two final four teams in high school, playing there in the 90's.